Why are we supposed to be against the Koch Brothers again?

[NewRightLibertarian]

Again, Dr. Paul did not feel that way, or he wouldn't have been hosting educational lunches on economics for years on end.

Yeah, he's been educating people toward his version of libertarianism so beltway libertarianism can be put down for good.

[LibertyEagle]

Yeah, he's been educating people toward his version of libertarianism so beltway libertarianism can be put down for good.

That's right and it needs to continue. By SOMEONE. Thus, my initial comment about wishing the Mises Institute had a presence in D.C.

[Tinnuhana]

Ron could drop by once in a while, stay at Rand's apartment LOL and help with the luncheons. Of course, if he's at the WH, he can help get someone else started since he's in town.

[Feeding the Abscess]

That's right and it needs to continue. By SOMEONE. Thus, my initial comment about wishing the Mises Institute had a presence in D.C.

That's where LvMI was until Lew and crew decided to move to Auburn.

[dbill27]

One of the koch brothers ran on the libertarian ticket as vp in the 80's. They're platform at the time included eliminating the federal reserve, CIA, FDA, DEA, and the EPA among other things. So, they can't be all bad.

[NewRightLibertarian]

One of the koch brothers ran on the libertarian ticket as vp in the 80's. They're platform at the time included eliminating the federal reserve, CIA, FDA, DEA, and the EPA among other things. So, they can't be all bad.

They've since abandoned those views to become establishment whores.

That's right and it needs to continue. By SOMEONE. Thus, my initial comment about wishing the Mises Institute had a presence in D.C.

Why do they have to be in D.C. to spread liberty? We can fund liberty candidates throughout the country without having a presence in that cesspool

[moderate libertarian]

Serious question.

They fund FreedomWorks, Reason Foundation, Cato Institute, Institute for Justice. Not sure why we're supposed to be against them exactly. Seems like Lew Rockwell just hates them because they aren't anarchists.

[Oops...meant to post this in General Politics. If mod sees this please move it there.]

FreedomWorls founder was a pro Palestinian-ethnic-cleansing, notorious racist if I'm not mistaken.
Kochies don't seem much better either.

http://alexbkane.wordpress.com/2010/...-islamophobia/

Koch Brothers Also Funding Islamophobia

Now, more has emerged about the Koch brothers’ agenda, and it’s not just limited to advocating for “drastically lower personal and corporate taxes, minimal social services for the needy, and much less oversight of industry—especially environmental regulation.” An investigation by CounterPunch‘s Pam Martens has revealed that “a secretive libertarian nonprofit with ties to Charles Koch bankrolled what was widely perceived to be a fear mongering effort to throw the Presidential election to Senator John McCain in 2008.”

The “fear mongering effort” in question was the documentary “Obsession: Radical Islam’s War Against the West,” which was distributed to millions of people in “swing states” around the country in the run-up to the 2008 presidential election through corporate newspapers. The documentary has been condemned as anti-Muslim, and features interviews with notorious Islamophobes such as Steven Emerson, Daniel Pipes and Caroline Glick.

Not sure of they are hardcore pimps of war/occupation lobbies but look like suspected neocons.

[pcgame]

..

[KingNothing]

I love Reason, and I think CATO is tremendous. I also love LRC, and think I LvMI is tremendous.

You're lying to yourself if you think Reason and CATO never put out really great, Liberty-oriented pieces. They may have released some pieces that you dislike, but they're definitely trying to move things in the right direction.

[angelatc]

I can't blame them for playing the system...

That's the way I feel about it If you want to play a game, you will lose if you don't play using the same rules that everybody else does. The liberals detest them, so I consider them any ally.

[FrankRep]

Simple answer. The Koch brothers are crony-capitalists.

How so?

[NewRightLibertarian]

How so?

Look at the politicians they support. Also, their betrayal of Austrian Economics

[Tom in NYC]

The Koch brothers have always just seemed motivated by money, not ideology, to me. They spend like $20M a year lobbying the federal government to reduce regulations and increase tax breaks, but generally do so for the industries in which they are invested. Combine that with a less than stellar record on economics and occasional questionable articles/support from the think tanks they support and you can see why people are uneasy.

[FrankRep]

The Koch brothers have always just seemed motivated by money, not ideology, to me. They spend like $20M a year lobbying the federal government to reduce regulations and increase tax breaks, but generally do so for the industries in which they are invested. Combine that with a less than stellar record on economics and occasional questionable articles/support from the think tanks they support and you can see why people are uneasy.

Wait. Reduced regulations and increased tax breaks are a bad thing?

[jmdrake]

Wait. Reduced regulations and increased tax breaks are a bad thing?

You left off the last part: but generally do so for the industries in which they are invested. General tax breaks are good. Targeted tax breaks can lead to malinvestment. That said I don't know enough about the Koch brothers to know if that is indeed their strategy.

[Victor Grey]

General tax breaks are good. Targeted tax breaks can lead to malinvestment.

This.

[talkingpointes]

This.

Except, targeted tax breaks are in themselves a malinvestment with all good intentions aside.

[heavenlyboy34]

btw, there's some interesting info about Cato at the Cato Unhinged blog- http://catounhinged.blogspot.com/

[kuckfeynes]

It's easy to speak of liberty... It's not so easy to live up to it in the face of the machine (for 30 years nonetheless).
The Kochs value liberty when it is convenient to them, just as any rational businessmen in their place would.
Same with Reason, Cato, LP, etc. They talk a good game. Usually. But in the end liberty to them is nothing more than a cost/benefit analysis.
And I think that is the central crisis we face with the new "rising stars" of the movement. Who can be trusted to truly be in it for liberty, and who sees a career first?
Ron Paul truly is a rare bird in this respect... A leader like that doesn't just pop up every generation...

[onlyrp]

Wait. Reduced regulations and increased tax breaks are a bad thing?

if it leads to outsourcing, unemployment, lower wages and more corporate power, yes, for some people.

[onlyrp]

It's easy to speak of liberty... It's not so easy to live up to it in the face of the machine (for 30 years nonetheless).
The Kochs value liberty when it is convenient to them, just as any rational businessmen in their place would.
Same with Reason, Cato, LP, etc. They talk a good game. Usually. But in the end liberty to them is nothing more than a cost/benefit analysis.
And I think that is the central crisis we face with the new "rising stars" of the movement. Who can be trusted to truly be in it for liberty, and who sees a career first?
Ron Paul truly is a rare bird in this respect... A leader like that doesn't just pop up every generation...

Exactly. So do many people here. Nothing wrong with that.

[heavenlyboy34]

Exactly. So do many people here. Nothing wrong with that.

Yes there is. If you're only concerned about your own liberty you're being very myopic and naive. If others' liberty can be violated on a whim, yours will be next.

[onlyrp]

Yes there is. If you're only concerned about your own liberty you're being very myopic and naive. If others' liberty can be violated on a whim, yours will be next.

Tell that to the Koch brothers and NWO for me. I'm sure they're very concerned about that, then they'll fight for other people's liberties too.

[FrankRep]

You left off the last part: but generally do so for the industries in which they are invested. General tax breaks are good. Targeted tax breaks can lead to malinvestment. That said I don't know enough about the Koch brothers to know if that is indeed their strategy.

Tax breaks are good in my opinion.

People invested in Oil want the government out of Oil, what a shocker!


The Koch brothers used to be apart of the Libertarian party, but after getting 5% of the vote, they viewed it as a lost cause and decided to influence the GOP with the Americans for Prosperity, the Cato Institute, etc...


=====


Did you know? David Koch was a Libertarian Vice-Presidential candidate in 1980
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...didate-in-1980

[FrankRep]

David Koch on the Iraq War:

He opposed the Iraq war, saying that the war has "cost a lot of money, and it's taken so many American lives". "I question whether that was the right thing to do. In hindsight that looks like it was not a good policy." he told an interviewer.

SOURCE:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articl...html?nopager=1

[Anti Federalist]

I saw a clip of David Koch on the "Starz Westerns" channel, on a filler show called the "Real West".

He won an auction for an orginal photo of Billy the Kid for $2.1 million.

I hate him just for that.

/jk/

[jmdrake]

Tax breaks are good in my opinion.

I didn't say they were bad. I said targeted tax breaks can lead to malinvestment.

People invested in Oil want the government out of Oil, what a shocker!

Not a shocker at all. But here's the problem. Say if oil gets a tax break but coal does not or vice versa. Is it really good for the government to pick the winners and losers based on who has the best lobbyists?

The Koch brothers used to be apart of the Libertarian party, but after getting 5% of the vote, they viewed it as a lost cause and decided to influence the GOP with the Americans for Prosperity, the Cato Institute, etc...


=====


Did you know? David Koch was a Libertarian Vice-Presidential candidate in 1980
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...didate-in-1980

That's nice. But that has nothing to do with the point I made about targeted tax breaks. Did you know that 2004 libertarian presidential candidate Bob Barr endorsed Barack Obama's nomination of gun grabber Eric Holder as attorney general? I'm agnostic about the Koch brothers. But I have a problem with targeted tax breaks. Tax breaks should be across the board with the goal of getting them to zero.

[Brett85]

They're our friends when they're anti-Obama, anti-tax, anti-global warming, anti-health care, and Tea Party. But they're our biggest enemies when they're neocons, anti-corporate tax, anti-OWS.

What exactly makes them "neo-cons?" And shouldn't being opposed to corporate taxes and all other taxes be a good thing? I'm sure that Ron supports abolishing the corporate income tax, as he supports abolishing the entire IRS.

[FrankRep]

What exactly makes them "neo-cons?" And shouldn't being opposed to corporate taxes and all other taxes be a good thing? I'm sure that Ron supports abolishing the corporate income tax, as he supports abolishing the entire IRS.

onlyrp is banned. The Koch brothers are not neo-cons.

[angelatc]

General tax breaks are good. Targeted tax breaks can lead to malinvestment. That said I don't know enough about the Koch brothers to know if that is indeed their strategy.

That's a fair point. But if we have to choose between getting some people lower taxes, or no people lower taxes, which should we pick?