Thought experiment to show why protectionism damages the economy

[Madison320]

I've heard a lot of people say the problem with free trade is that it only works when both countries are allowing trade. That's wrong. For example even if China sells to us but doesn't allow us to sell to them, it still benefits us (and hurts China).

Suppose in the US, a strange new volcano started spewing perfectly formed free high grade steel. Should the US ban the free steel because it would hurt US steel manufacturers? Or use that steel to make other products cheaper, like cars for example?

If a foreign country sells us cheap stuff we should say thank you. Not ban it.

[Anti Federalist]

I've heard a lot of people say the problem with free trade is that it only works when both countries are allowing trade. That's wrong. For example even if China sells to us but doesn't allow us to sell to them, it still benefits us (and hurts China).

Suppose in the US, a strange new volcano started spewing perfectly formed free high grade steel. Should the US ban the free steel because it would hurt US steel manufacturers? Or use that steel to make other products cheaper, like cars for example?

If a foreign country sells us cheap stuff we should say thank you. Not ban it.

Not when that country is an enemy.

"Oh, but those Germans make such nice toasters, and look how cheap they are!"

[Anti Federalist]

The maritime disaster in Baltimore this morning, should drive home the folly of "outsourcing" critical manufacturing through unlimited "free trade" agreements.

In the space of five minutes, a major US port is now out of commission for months.

A coordinated attack by a serious enemy on shipping, ports and infrastructure would utterly cripple the US and any response to such an attack.

//

[acptulsa]

Not when that country is an enemy.

"Oh, but those Germans make such nice toasters, and look how cheap they are!"

I have enough faith in the free market to believe that, if we suddenly couldn't import toasters, it wouldn't take free people long to get American toasters back in production.

I refuse to sweat over a toaster gap.

[PAF]

I've heard a lot of people say the problem with free trade is that it only works when both countries are allowing trade. That's wrong. For example even if China sells to us but doesn't allow us to sell to them, it still benefits us (and hurts China).

Suppose in the US, a strange new volcano started spewing perfectly formed free high grade steel. Should the US ban the free steel because it would hurt US steel manufacturers? Or use that steel to make other products cheaper, like cars for example?

If a foreign country sells us cheap stuff we should say thank you. Not ban it.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to @Madison320 again.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to @acptulsa again.


Those are the interventionists, like the ones who promote a globalists order, North American Union [USMCA], invade other countries because "if America can't compete it will conquer", etc.

I travel to Mexico often and can say that people for the most part are happy and laid back yet hard workers. Products are cheaper there, and often you will find stores that give free tequila for you to walk in the door at which point you can barter price further. "Concerned" people [mostly from the U.S.] criticize them, complain about their wages and judge their lifestyle, which leads to more interventionism and eventually higher costs. Every country has poor and wealthy, bad and good areas just like here in the states. But it should be up to the people in those countries to worry about, not us. We can benefit by the cheaper prices, while they benefit by the profits when we buy. It sure beats war, or banning, which would cause our prices to soar while cutting off their means of profit and survive. If American's were so truly concerned about "independence", they would simply demand more "economic freedom zones", lower regulatory and tax rates, build and compete, which would bring prices back down here in the states. It "may not be as simple as that", but that's what needs to be done.

@Anti Federalist : the company[ies] involved should be liable for rebuilding that, or set up an alternate port, not the federal government/tax payers.

[acptulsa]

The company[ies] involved should be liable for rebuilding that, or set up an alternate port, not the federal government/tax payers.

But no. Instead Biden offered to make us foot the bill so fast, you'd think somebody was afraid of what the insurance investigators would find.

[PAF]

But no. Instead Biden offered to make us foot the bill so fast, you'd think somebody was afraid of what the insurance investigators would find.

Not only that, but also another square mile toward the merger of private business/government fascism. "You didn't build that, we did".

[Madison320]

Not when that country is an enemy.

"Oh, but those Germans make such nice toasters, and look how cheap they are!"

Who gets to define which country is an enemy? See the problem there?

The Biden Regime decided Russia was the enemy and then blew up the gas pipline to Germany to prevent trade. Using your logic that would be ok.

Besides that you missed the whole point. The point is it getting cheap stuff HELPS us and HURTS them.

[CaptUSA]

If a foreign country sells us cheap stuff we should say thank you. Not ban it.

I'm reminded of Bastiat's The Candlemakers' Petition.

We candlemakers are suffering from the unfair competition of a foreign rival. This foreign manufacturer of light has such an advantage over us that he floods our domestic markets with his product. And he offers it at a fantastically low price. The moment this foreigner appears in our country, all our customers desert us and turn to him. As a result, an entire domestic industry is rendered completely stagnant. And even more, since the lighting industry has countless ramifications with other native industries, they, too, are injured. This foreign manufacturer who competes against us without mercy is none other than the sun itself!

Here is our petition: Please pass a law ordering the closing of all windows, skylights, shutters, curtains, and blinds — that is, all openings, holes, and cracks through which the light of the sun is able to enter houses. This free sunlight is hurting the business of us deserving manufacturers of candles. Since we have always served our country well, gratitude demands that our country ought not to abandon us now to this un*equal competition.

We hope that you gentlemen will not regard our petition as mere satire, or refuse it without at least hearing our reasons in support of it.

First, if you make it as difficult as possible for the people to have access to natural light, and thus create an increased demand for artificial light, will not all domestic manufacturers be stimulated thereby?

For example, if more tallow is consumed, naturally there must be more cattle and sheep. As a result, there will also be more meat, wool, and hides. There will even be more manure, which is the basis of agriculture.

Next, if more oil is consumed for lighting, we shall have extensive olive groves and rape fields.

Also, our wastelands will be covered with pines and other resinous trees and plants. As a result of this, there will be numerous swarms of bees to increase the production of honey. In fact, all branches of agriculture will show an increased development.

The same applies to the shipping industry. The increased demand for whale oil will then require thousands of ships for whale fishing. In a short time, this will result in a navy capable of upholding the honor of our country and gratifying the patriotic sentiments of the candlemakers and other per*sons in related industries.

The manufacturers of lighting fixtures — candlesticks, lamps, candelabra, chandeliers, crystals, bronzes, and so on — will be especially stimulated. The resulting warehouses and display rooms will make our present-day shops look poor indeed.

The resin collectors on the heights along the seacoast, as well as the coal miners in the depths of the earth, will rejoice at their higher wages and increased prosperity. In fact, gentlemen, the condition of every citizen of our country — from the wealthiest owner of coal mines to the poorest seller of matches — will be improved by the success of our petition.

[Anti Federalist]

Who gets to define which country is an enemy? See the problem there?

A nation that deliberately creates a biological super bug, releases it on my country, and the world, and kills and is still killing, millions of people, is my enemy.

Besides that you missed the whole point. The point is it getting cheap stuff HELPS us and HURTS them.

It hurts them?

Why are their children healthy and well adjusted?

Why can't young people wanting to start a family afford a home here?

Why are so many parts of our cities reeking with the stench of $#@! and death?

Why have they surpassed the world as an economic power?

Why are their children better educated and more knowledgeable?

Why is our nation's vast industrial heartland now "The Rust Belt"?

Why are rural communities being slaughtered by drugs and despair?

I could on and on...

Value added manufacturing, taking raw materials out of the ground and producing highly crafted things out of it, is how you make a nation and a people productive, independent and free.

Take that away and you make a nation weak, dependent and demoralized, with a shiftless and rapidly growing underclass that knows it can never work its way out of the trouble they are in, and become receptive vessels for the calls of both Marxism and Fascism.

[CaptUSA]

A nation that deliberately creates a biological super bug, releases it on my country, and the world, and kills and is still killing, millions of people, is my enemy.

There is a process for halting trade with a true enemy. It's a congressional declaration of war. I don't think many free traders would purport that a nation must continue to trade with a declared enemy. Just know that there are repercussions to that too.

[spudea]

If a foreign country sells us cheap stuff we should say thank you. Not ban it.

So you're just fine with slave labor as long as the products are cheap. Nice thought experiment. Next you'll tell us we should just compete better than China and and be more like them and bring back slave labor in the US.

[acptulsa]

So you're just fine with slave labor as long as the products are cheap. Nice thought experiment. Next you'll tell us we should just compete better than China and and be more like them and bring back slave labor in the US.

What's wrong with boycotts? Do we really need or want the government choosing who the good guys and bad guys are? We can't decide for ourselves?

Sure, some people won't go along with your boycott. And? Starting a war over what they do is better? Because any other attitude gives the Democracy Spreaders an opening.

[spudea]

What's wrong with boycotts? Do we really need or want the government choosing who the good guys and bad guys are? We can't decide for ourselves?

Sure, some people won't go along with your boycott. And? Starting a war over what they do is better? Because any other attitude gives the Democracy Spreaders an opening.

How's a boycott supposed to work after our domestic industry is already destroyed, and we are totally reliant on slave made foreign goods. Combined with inflation and the upside down concentration of wealth, most people have no choice.

[acptulsa]

I have enough faith in the free market to believe that, if we suddenly couldn't import toasters, it wouldn't take free people long to get American toasters back in production.

I refuse to sweat over a toaster gap.

How's a boycott supposed to work after our domestic industry is already destroyed, and we are totally reliant on slave made foreign goods. Combined with inflation and the upside down concentration of wealth, most people have no choice.

I still refuse to sweat over a toaster gap.

[Swordsmyth]

I've heard a lot of people say the problem with free trade is that it only works when both countries are allowing trade. That's wrong. For example even if China sells to us but doesn't allow us to sell to them, it still benefits us (and hurts China).

Suppose in the US, a strange new volcano started spewing perfectly formed free high grade steel. Should the US ban the free steel because it would hurt US steel manufacturers? Or use that steel to make other products cheaper, like cars for example?

If a foreign country sells us cheap stuff we should say thank you. Not ban it.

We control the volcano.
Your experiment fails right there.

We don't control other countries and they will use the destruction of our industries and our dependence on them against us, whether they are communist or globalist controlled, or both.

[Swordsmyth]

So you're just fine with slave labor as long as the products are cheap. Nice thought experiment. Next you'll tell us we should just compete better than China and and be more like them and bring back slave labor in the US.

That's the plan.
And it is very far advanced.

[Swordsmyth]

A nation that deliberately creates a biological super bug, releases it on my country, and the world, and kills and is still killing, millions of people, is my enemy.



It hurts them?

Why are their children healthy and well adjusted?

Why can't young people wanting to start a family afford a home here?

Why are so many parts of our cities reeking with the stench of $#@! and death?

Why have they surpassed the world as an economic power?

Why are their children better educated and more knowledgeable?

Why is our nation's vast industrial heartland now "The Rust Belt"?

Why are rural communities being slaughtered by drugs and despair?

I could on and on...

Value added manufacturing, taking raw materials out of the ground and producing highly crafted things out of it, is how you make a nation and a people productive, independent and free.

Take that away and you make a nation weak, dependent and demoralized, with a shiftless and rapidly growing underclass that knows it can never work its way out of the trouble they are in, and become receptive vessels for the calls of both Marxism and Fascism.

Don't be silly, none of that matters as long as asset owning Boomers can save a couple of bucks to add to their spending of the kids' inheritance.
Just like open borders so they can hire Honduran guys to mow their lawn for less than they could pay their grandson to do it while he's trying to work his way through college.

[Swordsmyth]

Who gets to define which country is an enemy? See the problem there?

The Biden Regime decided Russia was the enemy and then blew up the gas pipline to Germany to prevent trade. Using your logic that would be ok.

Besides that you missed the whole point. The point is it getting cheap stuff HELPS us and HURTS them.

That's right, we have no enemies, the Chinese communists who are undermining our country in every way possible are just friends with a different way of helping us.

Don't be absurd.
Even countries that are not our enemies can hurt our ability to maintain our independence and liberty, and most countries in the world are controlled by the enemies of liberty and America.
Cheap stuff hurts us like junk food hurts your health and and it has helped them build up a military capable of potentially defeating us in a war, a war they are increasingly moving towards and have always declared their intent to wage.

Far better to treat every country in the world as an enemy for trade purposes than to treat all as friends.

Do you have locks on your doors? or do you invite everyone in town to just wander through your house as they please?
After all, most people are honest and decent.

[Swordsmyth]

I have enough faith in the free market to believe that, if we suddenly couldn't import toasters, it wouldn't take free people long to get American toasters back in production.

I refuse to sweat over a toaster gap.

Tell it to Germany in both world wars.

[acptulsa]

Tell it to Germany in both world wars.

Germany picked a fight with the whole world -- twice -- despite not having oil.

And there was nothing particularly free about their market either time. Nothing. The first time it was a monarchy, the second time it was socialist.

Got a point to make?

[Swordsmyth]

Germany picked a fight with the whole world -- twice -- despite not having oil.

And there was nothing particularly free about their market either time. Nothing. The first time it was a monarchy, the second time it was socialist.

Got a point to make?

Germany was cut off from the food and other resources it had become dependent on overseas trade for by the British blockade in both wars.
That's the position Free Trade and Interdependence puts everyone in.

[acptulsa]

When losing a debate, torture the language to the point that no one knows what you're talking about.

[CaptUSA]

Ok, economic truths are too hard to understand for some people... Let's try this one...

Even if you think protectionist tariffs are a good thing, you have to recognize that they will be selectively implemented by self-interested politicians beholden to their favored donors, and then administered and enforced by a litany of unelected bureaucrats and government employees operating by their own interests. Meanwhile, any misstep in application or execution will result in bruised relationships with other trading partners that have cascading effects around the globe - often resulting in increased geopolitical tensions and eventually war.

To believe that this is a good idea is to believe the idea that there are pious planners out there that will get these protectionist tariffs just right in order to increase manufacturing while minimizing damage to other industries, and they can do it just such a manner that it will not cause any ripple effects that could cause us harm.

[TheTexan]

I have enough faith in the free market to believe that, if we suddenly couldn't import toasters, it wouldn't take free people long to get American toasters back in production.

I refuse to sweat over a toaster gap.

I think this point of view underestimates the complexities of the modern supply chain.

[acptulsa]

I think this point of view underestimates the complexities of the modern supply chain.

I think complexities are something that stymies the snot out of central planners, but which free entrepreneurs eat for lunch.

[TheTexan]

I think complexities are something that stymies the snot out of central planners, but which free entrepreneurs eat for lunch.

With enough time, sure. But economic cycles can last generations. We have allowed ourselves to dig a very deep hole, which will take "free entrepreneurs" a very long time to re-fill.

It would have been much better to not have dug that hole in the first place.

[acptulsa]

It would have been much better to not have dug that hole in the first place.

Been saying it since the seventies. Nobody listens.

What now? Rehire a politician who promised to make America great again, and didn't? Or hire someone who might make the government stand down and stand back, and let Americans make America great again? Because no politicians ever did that thing.

[TheTexan]

Ok, economic truths are too hard to understand for some people... Let's try this one...

Even if you think protectionist tariffs are a good thing, you have to recognize that they will be selectively implemented by self-interested politicians beholden to their favored donors, and then administered and enforced by a litany of unelected bureaucrats and government employees operating by their own interests. Meanwhile, any misstep in application or execution will result in bruised relationships with other trading partners that have cascading effects around the globe - often resulting in increased geopolitical tensions and eventually war.

To believe that this is a good idea is to believe the idea that there are pious planners out there that will get these protectionist tariffs just right in order to increase manufacturing while minimizing damage to other industries, and they can do it just such a manner that it will not cause any ripple effects that could cause us harm.

I don't think protectionist tariffs are a good thing, but I do think tariffs in general are a good thing. If this country were to even outright ban international trade it would be much better off in the decades to come. We have allowed other countries to exert undue economic and cultural influence on us, largely because of our dependence on their trade, and this has had a deleterious effect on our society, culture, economy, and prosperity. We need less trade, not more...

And again, to pre-empt any kind of "but muh rights" kind of retort (from anyone, not specifically you), I fully support your right to secede. If you do want free trade, great, secede. But don't expect trade with the nation you left behind.

[TheTexan]

Been saying it since the seventies. Nobody listens.

What now? Rehire a politician who promised to make America great again, and didn't? Or hire someone who might make the government stand down and stand back, and let Americans make America great again? Because no politicians ever did that thing.

Honestly, I'd rather take the politician that promises to make America great and doesnt deliver, than the politician that promises to destroy this country and everything we hope it still stands for.