The "TikTok ban" goes beyond TikTok. It is another huge step toward total control.

[Occam's Banana]

I think highly.

Imagine a world in which our politicians are indebted to Chinese interests to the tune of tens of millions of dollars or more.

Whether "highly" or not, it's still something to be concerned about far more than some damned phone app one has to choose to install and use - especially when it comes to the question of using government force to prevent the latter.

I don't care what one thinks about TikTok, it is beyond me how anyone who gives a damn about freedom can think it is at all tolerable (let alone a good idea) to allow the likes of Joe Biden, Dan Crenshaw, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Mitch McConnell, et al. to dictate whether other people should be allowed to use it.

Here are some questions for those (such as @69360 or @Anti Federalist who say they oppose this particular bill but would nevertheless support banning TikTok specifically:

1. If TikTok is to be banned because it is "controlled" by China, are other apps that are "controlled" by China also to be banned? (If not, why not?)
2. What about apps that are merely "influenced" or "guided" by China? Shouldn't they be banned, too? (If not, why not? If so, by what standard?)
3. What about apps that are "controlled" (or "influenced" or "guided") by other countries (such as Russia or Israel)? Shouldn't they be banned, too? (If not, why not? If so, which ones and by what standard?)
4. What about apps that are "controlled" (or "influenced" or "guided") by native groups or organizations that are or could be deemed "objectionable" (such as commie-symps, or antisemites, or so on)? Shouldn't they be banned, too? (If not, why not? If so, which ones and by what standard?)
5. Who gets to decide that an app is "controlled" (or "influenced" or "guided") by whomever such that it should (by whatever standard) be banned for use by anyone else?
6. What are to be the consequences if anyone referenced in any possible answer to (5) makes an erroneous "false positive" decision, and how are those consequences to be effected?
7. Why should anyone referenced in any possible answer to (5) ever be given (let alone trusted with) that kind of power?
8. Given whatever answers to the previous questions - and whatever one might expect the benefits to be - is it really at all reasonable to expect that the ultimate results will actually be anything but a net loss for liberty?

https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/...41414667358405

[Anti Federalist]

Given whatever answers to the previous questions - and whatever one might expect the benefits to be - is it really at all reasonable to expect that the ultimate results will actually be anything but a net loss for liberty?

Yes, it is reasonable, because we are at war for our very survival.

Our survival includes the preservation of western civilization, unique and alone in its defense of the individual and the rights thereof.

If we do not accept that there will have to be sacrifices made, and a collective effort made, and harden ourselves, in order to defend that civilization, then the forces of global Marxism will win, and a 1000 year dark age will descend across the globe, resulting in tyranny and loss of liberty, globally, for centuries.

I was very specific in saying I would support shutting down TikTok due to the fact that it is toxic mind poison and enemy propaganda.

I would support no manner of "mission creep" past that point.

[Anti Federalist]

Trump on TikTok: ‘There’s a Danger to Banning it with Freedom of Speech’

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2024...dom-of-speech/

IAN HANCHETT 15 Mar 2024

During portions of an interview with the Fox News Channel that took place on Thursday and was aired on Friday’s “Special Report,” 2024 Republican presidential candidate former President Donald Trump said “there’s a danger to banning” TikTok “with freedom of speech.” And “what can you do is, let them sell TikTok, let them sell it in the market, maybe get a good price, maybe not get a good price, I don’t know, but take it away from China control. But I think China controls Facebook,” as well.

Kurtz said, [relevant remarks begin around 2:30] “After the House voted to overwhelmingly ban TikTok if it doesn’t cut ties with its China-based parent company, Trump told Fox News why he no longer favors a government ban that he pushed as President on national security grounds, citing the free exchange of ideas.”

He then played a clip of Trump saying, “But there’s a danger to banning it with freedom of speech. I found Facebook to be extremely dishonest. And what would happen is, if you ban TikTok, if you take it away, we have a new concept, but if you take it away, those people are going to go into Facebook. And Facebook, in my opinion, was worse than TikTok by a lot.”

Kurtz then stated, “Trump, who recently met with philanthropist Jeff Yass, says he didn’t know the billionaire owns a stake in TikTok’s parent firm.”

He then played a clip of Trump saying, “[I]f you’re going to do it to TikTok, do it to Facebook, and what can you do is, let them sell TikTok, let them sell it in the market, maybe get a good price, maybe not get a good price, I don’t know, but take it away from China control. But I think China controls Facebook, also, because they have tremendous power in that company.”

[unknown]

https://twitter.com/TuckerCarlson/st...92526523777065

Not for nothing, was thinking about this, Tucker has a LOT of reach.

I love that he called out Eyepatch McCain.

[Intrepid]

Not for nothing, was thinking about this, Tucker has a LOT of reach.

I love that he called out Eyepatch McCain.

Wasn't Crenshaw one of the good guys when he first came on the scene? What the hell happened to him?

[Valli6]

Wasn't Crenshaw one of the good guys when he first came on the scene? What the hell happened to him?

No. Never. He was just pushed as a good guy because he was in the service - "HE LOST AN EYE! HE'S A HERO!" - and they hoped that would be enough to fool everyone - and it did fool many for a while. Pretended for a while, probably cast a few decent votes in the beginning.

Just like how Rubio was pushed as a "tea party" candidate at the time, even though he was just another obedient young neocon.

Always beware of the fast-rising-star gop darlings - including the females*.
They are always, ALWAYS, obedient, malleable, young neocons!


(*every female on Trump's VP short list except maybe Tulsi Gabbard)

[TheCount]

Wasn't Crenshaw one of the good guys when he first came on the scene? What the hell happened to him?

He "had all the right enemies" and "made all the right people mad"

[Occam's Banana]

Biden & Trump Split on New TikTok Ban. PLUS: Briahna Joy Gray on Israel-Gaza, Dems 2024, and More | SYSTEM UPDATE #241
https://rumble.com/v4i0ygf-system-update-241.html
{Glenn Greenwald | 08 March 2024}

CLIP:

Trump Rejects Biden-Endorsed TikTok Ban
https://rumble.com/v4i7ld8-trump-rej...iktok-ban.html
{Glenn Greenwald | 09 March 2024}

[Occam's Banana]

Bipartisan House Vote Pushes Deep State TikTok Ban—Who Really Benefits? w/ Michael Tracey | SYSTEM UPDATE #242
https://rumble.com/v4j9vyc-system-update-show-242.html
{Glenn Greenwald | 14 March 2024}

CLIPS:

A Vital Question on This New, Bipartisan TikTok Ban
https://rumble.com/v4jfjdc-a-vital-q...iktok-ban.html
{Glenn Greenwald | 15 March 2024}

Is Biden Owned by China—Or a TikTok-Banning Patriot?
https://rumble.com/v4jg6lc-is-biden-...g-patriot.html
{Glenn Greenwald | 15 March 2024}

[devil21]

Total coincidence I'm sure that WEF Davos members Warner and Thune introduce this bill a couple months after the 2024 Davos main theme was censorship. Total coincidence.

[Occam's Banana]

Yes, it is reasonable, because we are at war for our very survival.

Our survival includes the preservation of western civilization, unique and alone in its defense of the individual and the rights thereof.

If we do not accept that there will have to be sacrifices made, and a collective effort made, and harden ourselves, in order to defend that civilization, then the forces of global Marxism will win, and a 1000 year dark age will descend across the globe, resulting in tyranny and loss of liberty, globally, for centuries.

TikTok does not in itself pose any significant danger to Western civilization. It's just a social media app. As is the case for Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, etc., the vast majority of the content it conveys is innocuous and unobjectionable (except perhaps on grounds that it is excessively pedestrian and trivial - but that only serves to reinforce the point of its essential harmlessness).

To the extent that TikTok conveys some amount of content that can be deemed as being "toxic mind poison and enemy propaganda" (however defined), this is no less true of other social media venues, and banning TikTok will do nothing to put a stop to the creation and dissemination of such material [1]. If TikTok is banned, then that stuff will simply migrate to those myriad other platforms. At worst, TikTok is just a symptom, not the source - and therein lies the problem ...

I was very specific in saying I would support shutting down TikTok due to the fact that it is toxic mind poison and enemy propaganda.

I would support no manner of "mission creep" past that point.

The particular reasons for which you and others think TikTok and only TikTok ought to be banned are not really germane to the point I am trying to make. I wasn't asking why you support banning TikTok. Given that you do support banning it (for whatever reasons), I was trying to get at how you can imagine it could even be possible to avoid the "mission creep" you disavow.

I don't doubt the sincerity of your disavowal - but I don't think it makes any sense, either. It is unavoidably belied and inescapably contradicted by the logic of your support for such a ban (regardless of whatever the reasons for that support might be). If it makes compelling sense to ban a particular "Chinese controlled" social media app (e.g., TikTok) because it spreads some amount of "toxic mind poison and enemy propaganda" (or because the Chinese are spying on their users, or because whatever), then how can it fail to be just as compellingly sensible to ban other social media apps that (do or could) serve exactly the same function, regardless of whether they are "controlled" (or even merely "influenced" or "guided") by the Chinese (or by the Russians, or the Israelis, or some native "homegrown" group or organization, or ... whomever)? How is it possible to justify the TikTok ban without also justifying all the "mission creep" to follow? Or conversely, if you reject the "mission creep", then what's the point of the TikTok ban? After all, the disseminators of the material you imagine you are forestalling will simply and safely find other "paths of least resistance" - paths for which you have already explicitly disavowed any attempts to ban.

IOW: How does banning TikTok not end up being either (1) useless, ineffective, and futile (for the purpose of preserving Western civilization/values/etc.), or (2) applied generally upon everyone (not just TikTok and its users) by politicians and bureaucrats according to whatever standards they arbitrarily please to adopt? How can either of these possibly redound to the net benefit of human liberty or Western civilization?



[1] I recently said the following in another thread:

Thanks to the Internet in general and so-called "social media" in particular, the establishmentarians have completely lost their stranglehold over (the dissemination of) narratives. They are desperate to find a way to get it back.

They can still do some damage and wreck some peoples' lives, but ultimately [...] they will fail.

This ain't the mimeographed samizdat of our (grand)fathers' day.

/white-pill

But that cuts both ways. It applies every bit as much to attempts by would-be defenders of the West to control or eliminate what they consider to be "toxic mind poison and enemy propaganda" as it does to attempts by establishmentarians to control or eliminate what they consider to be "toxic mind poison and enemy ('domestic extremist' ?) propaganda". But it won't work for the former any better than for the latter. For better and for worse, the genie is out of the bottle, and it ain't goin' back - and liberty and Western values can only be damaged further by trying to make it.

[WarriorLiberty]

Total coincidence I'm sure that WEF Davos members Warner and Thune introduce this bill a couple months after the 2024 Davos main theme was censorship. Total coincidence.

I wouldn't be surprised.

I do remember a YT vid few WEF members saying how there are platforms which their members cant control.

[Matt Collins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgUdg3kaeS4

[Anti Federalist]

TikTok does not in itself pose any significant danger to Western civilization. It's just a social media app.

And Tokyo Rose was just a radio broadcaster.

I'll grant many of your points, they are valid and well stated.

Perhaps my better judgement is blinded by my desire to have the government of a hostile nation that released a man made plague on the world that has killed millions, held accountable in some way.

Shutting down one of their US propaganda organs would have been a tiny first step.

[Occam's Banana]

And Tokyo Rose was just a radio broadcaster.

A vitally important distinction to keep in mind between social media in contrast to "one-way" venues (such as radio broadcasts) is that social media affords the opportunity to "clap back" with visibility just as great as - and in some cases, even greater than - the visibility of whatever is being "clapped back" against. (See my final paragraph below, for example.)

I'll grant many of your points, they are valid and well stated.

Perhaps my better judgement is blinded by my desire to have the government of a hostile nation that released a man made plague on the world that has killed millions, held accountable in some way.

Shutting down one of their US propaganda organs would have been a tiny first step.

Just to be clear, I understand and sympathize with your motives.

The elements in China (and the U.S.) responsible for creating and (intentionally or unintentionally) loosing COVID absolutely should be held to account (and alas! that they almost certainly will not be).

I also agree that TikTok is indeed a primary popular venue for the dissemination of what you refer to as "toxic mind poison and enemy propaganda" (despite that such material makes up only quite a small part of its overall content). But it is not the only one, by far - and banning it would accomplish nothing but (1) perhaps some brief, transient psychic gratification that "something" had been done, and (2) initiating a totalitarian "mission creep" cure that would end up being worse than the disease (and that would even actually facilitate the wider spread of the disease to other platforms).

It also occurs to me that there is more than just a little utility in having a locus such as TikTok in which "toxic mind poison and enemy propaganda" is concentrated and can be so readily observed and identified for what it is. There is nothing subtle or obscure about it, and that is to our advantage. In fact, that is the basis for the success of sources such as "Libs of TikTok", whose task of giving wider public exposure to the bat$#@! insanity of far-left progressivism is made much easier with TikTok than without it [1]. Consider also that if TikTok ought to be banned as disseminators of "toxic mind poison and enemy propaganda", then it follows that sources such as "Libs of TikTok" would also need to be banned - and for the same reason.



[1] See for example the following random sample, from less than an hour ago as I write this:

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/sta...03155204604173

[WarriorLiberty]

Most Social Media platforms are banned in China.
By doing this US govt wont be any different from communist china.

Not that i care about Tik Tok but the ban is a slippery slope.

[Occam's Banana]

https://twitter.com/RonPaul/status/1768369516155711888

Yesterday's House vote to either force the sale of Tik Tok or ban it entirely from the US is the most dangerous and anti-American act since the passage of the PATRIOT Act!

The law will give the US president SOLE AUTHORITY to determine which businesses can and cannot operate in the United States.

It is a full government takeover of our basic liberties.

Watch today's Liberty Report below:

[Anti Federalist]

https://twitter.com/RonPaul/status/1768369516155711888

Who am I to argue with Ron?

It's a moot issue anyway.

This government is shot full of Chinese moles and Quislings, to the point where there will never be any accountability for releasing COVID19 on an unsuspecting world.

Not from these $#@!ing people anyway.

I hope the 100% fatal bio weapon plague they have just conceived and tested on human ACE2-transgenic mice isn't too painful.

I withdraw my support for the concept.

I never supported the final bill.

In so withdrawing, I also concede defeat.

If we cannot get our heads out of our asses long enough to take a wartime measure, to block foreign propaganda, from a nation that unleashed biological warfare on us and killed and is still killing, millions of fellow US citizens, and not craft that in such a way that it does not "creep" or does not impinge other legitimate platforms from functioning free of government shut down and authoritarianism, then we sure as $#@! will not be able to wage a conventional war, or seal the border and deport the invaders, or even pay down our debt.

It's done...

[Anti Federalist]

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/sta...03155204604173

Again, I concede defeat.

That thing is what, 35 percent of the young generation?

The next wave of plague will kill that freak as quickly as it will me and you.

[TheTexan]

[1] See for example the following random sample, from less than an hour ago as I write this:

https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/sta...03155204604173

How can you be "trans" and "non-binary" ?

[Occam's Banana]

How can you be "trans" and "non-binary" ?

Schrödinger's queer?

[acptulsa]

[PAF]

Once they eliminate/rewrite the 2nd Amendment, the 1st won't be a problem.

Looks like they're already working on it as we speak:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...endment-rights

[Occam's Banana]

How can you be "trans" and "non-binary" ?

Schrödinger's queer?

" ... both and neither one ..."

https://twitter.com/genspect/status/1770637625143050571

[WarriorLiberty]

Total coincidence I'm sure that WEF Davos members Warner and Thune introduce this bill a couple months after the 2024 Davos main theme was censorship. Total coincidence.

Your right this is becoming almost to of a coincidence.

[Occam's Banana]

[Occam's Banana]

First up: banning any apps deemed by the feds to be "controlled by the Chinese government".

Next up: banning any apps deemed by the feds to be "controlled by the Chinese Russian government" ... and then any apps deemed by the feds to be "controlled influenced by the Chinese government" ... and then apps deemed by the feds to be "controlled influenced by the Chinese Russian government" ... and so on ... and so on ... and on ... and on ...

https://twitter.com/justinamash/stat...22388680094056

[acptulsa]

What? They're really after TwiX? But the title of the bill says it was just to ban TikTok!

[Brian4Liberty]

https://twitter.com/EsquireActual/st...39053286138266

[Occam's Banana]

https://twitter.com/EsquireActual/st...39053286138266

THREAD: Feds are showing up at peoples' homes over social media posts