Did Jesus have a choice to die for us?

[jmdrake]

Hello all. I decided to post this based on a brief conversation Terry1 and I had in another thread about her visit to an SDA church. The pastor said in his sermon something to the effect that Jesus didn't have a choice but to die for us. Terry1 was bothered to the point of standing up and disagreeing. But the more I think about it, I don't disagree with the pastor. At least not the way I think about the choice. No I'm not saying that Jesus' was subservient to the point that the Father and/or the Holy Spirit had to twist His arm. Quite the contrary. I think it was Jesus' fatherly love for us that twisted His arm.

Let me explain. We know that God is synonymous with true love. (1 John 4:8) We know that the type of love Christ has is one that constrains or compels us. (2 Corinthians 5:14). We know that one way Christ showed His love for is is by dying for us. (John 3:36; Romans 5:8; John 15:13)

Now have you ever heard the term "You leave me no choice?" What that typically means is "I have no acceptable choice but to do X". As I mentioned to Terry1, I engage in self defense training. One thing that I have learned is that when faced with someone with a knife, if you are unarmed the safest choice is to run away. But say if my kids are with me? In that case running isn't an choice. I mean technically it is. I could run and hope they are fast enough to get away too. But what kind of father would I be if I did that? And I wouldn't just do that for my kids. I would do that for the child of someone else as well. When Adam and Eve sinned God was faced with two equally unacceptable choices and one bad, but acceptable choice. Letting them stay in the garden and live forever after disobeying a command with a death penalty attached was unacceptable. (Genesis 3:22) God could have just allowed the extinction of the human race and started over, but remember the constraining love we just talked about. So the last choice, the bad but acceptable choice was for someone to die for man because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. (Hebrews 9:22) Now I don't know exactly what the pastor Terry heard preaching said or where he was ultimately going in his sermon. But if his point was what I think it was, I agree with it and find it to be a glorious truth. Jesus loves us much more than I love my own children. And if my love for them would not allow me to leave them to die and to, if need be, give up my life for them, how much more would Jesus love for us compel Him?

[Christian Liberty]

Ultimately it comes down to the definition of can't.

I "can't" jump out my window and fly right now. Its literally impossible. There's no way I could do it. I am physically constrained. In that respect there's nothing God can't do but break the laws of logic.

On the other hand, I can't just kill my roomate right now, not because I couldn't physically try, but because I just couldn't conceive of doing so. In a stronger sense, I would say Jesus couldn't just leave all of humanity to be damned... its not that he physically couldn't or even that he wouldn't have the right, but he wouldn't because he loves us.

[Ronin Truth]

Did he KNOW beforehand that he was dying for us? Or is that just an after the event made up, face saving, marketing cover story?

[dannno]

According to my Sunday school teacher, Jesus could have summoned angels out of the sky to come take him off the cross if he wanted to.

[jmdrake]

Ultimately it comes down to the definition of can't.

I "can't" jump out my window and fly right now. Its literally impossible. There's no way I could do it. I am physically constrained. In that respect there's nothing God can't do but break the laws of logic.

On the other hand, I can't just kill my roomate right now, not because I couldn't physically try, but because I just couldn't conceive of doing so. In a stronger sense, I would say Jesus couldn't just leave all of humanity to be damned... its not that he physically couldn't or even that he wouldn't have the right, but he wouldn't because he loves us.

Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying.

According to my Sunday school teacher, Jesus could have summoned angels out of the sky to come take him off the cross if he wanted to.

And she would be right. Jesus said "I lay down my life and I will take it up again." And that reminds me of an old gospel song.

[jmdrake]

Did he KNOW beforehand that he was dying for us? Or is that just an after the event made up, face saving, marketing cover story?

Well if Jesus believed Himself to be the Messiah and if He read in the book of Isaiah how the Messiah would be "bruised for our iniquities" and "led like a lamb to the slaughter" and that "by His stripes we are healed" then it stands to reason He knew.

[Terry1]

Hello all. I decided to post this based on a brief conversation Terry1 and I had in another thread about her visit to an SDA church. The pastor said in his sermon something to the effect that Jesus didn't have a choice but to die for us. Terry1 was bothered to the point of standing up and disagreeing. But the more I think about it, I don't disagree with the pastor. At least not the way I think about the choice. No I'm not saying that Jesus' was subservient to the point that the Father and/or the Holy Spirit had to twist His arm. Quite the contrary. I think it was Jesus' fatherly love for us that twisted His arm.

Let me explain. We know that God is synonymous with true love. (1 John 4:8) We know that the type of love Christ has is one that constrains or compels us. (2 Corinthians 5:14). We know that one way Christ showed His love for is is by dying for us. (John 3:36; Romans 5:8; John 15:13)

Now have you ever heard the term "You leave me no choice?" What that typically means is "I have no acceptable choice but to do X". As I mentioned to Terry1, I engage in self defense training. One thing that I have learned is that when faced with someone with a knife, if you are unarmed the safest choice is to run away. But say if my kids are with me? In that case running isn't an choice. I mean technically it is. I could run and hope they are fast enough to get away too. But what kind of father would I be if I did that? And I wouldn't just do that for my kids. I would do that for the child of someone else as well. When Adam and Eve sinned God was faced with two equally unacceptable choices and one bad, but acceptable choice. Letting them stay in the garden and live forever after disobeying a command with a death penalty attached was unacceptable. (Genesis 3:22) God could have just allowed the extinction of the human race and started over, but remember the constraining love we just talked about. So the last choice, the bad but acceptable choice was for someone to die for man because without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. (Hebrews 9:22) Now I don't know exactly what the pastor Terry heard preaching said or where he was ultimately going in his sermon. But if his point was what I think it was, I agree with it and find it to be a glorious truth. Jesus loves us much more than I love my own children. And if my love for them would not allow me to leave them to die and to, if need be, give up my life for them, how much more would Jesus love for us compel Him?

Hi jmd,--loved-loved your post here too and I can understand where you're coming from. That sermon that preacher was giving was almost 25 years ago now, so forgive me if I don't quite remember everything he was talking about back then. What I do remember is how he presented the question in a rhetorical manner as if to assure everyone that Jesus had no other choice, but to die on that cross--

I think that there's a couple things we have to examine first here. First of all--remember when Jesus prayed that this cup might pass from Him. Although Jesus was sinless and never committed sin--His spirit and soul still inhabited human flesh and bone. He hadn't been perfected or glorified at this point. That didn't happen until after the resurrection. So although the Spirit of Jesus was willing--His flesh was still weak by asking the cup pass from Him because He knew what was coming to the point He sweated blood in fear.

Danno is right--Jesus could have summoned the angels to rescue Him from what was coming, but He didn't--He chose to die on that cross for the sins of mankind out of pure love for God and His children. The essence of love is sacrifice-- Love always requires an act of sacrifice to reveal itself to anyone.

God chose to do this for mankind before He ever became flesh in Jesus here on earth. It's not because God or Jesus could not change their minds, because we see that God has changed His mind regarding other matters in the word, but God changes not as far as who He is and all that encompasses with regard to His power and that He is that He is.

God can limit His own foreknowledge with whatever He chooses to remember or blot out. He can and has changed His mind with regard to an instance with Moses where God told Moses to stand clear because He was doing to destroy those who disobeyed while Moses was on the mountain and Moses begging God not to kill the people, but spare them instead and God did as Moses asked of Him.

This is all leading up to what we see is clearly a choice--God's choice and Jesus both. It's not that Jesus would have changed His mind and not gone through with the torture and sacrifice, but that He was as mankind in flesh and bone. The flesh being weak wars with the Spirit. After all--what was the point of Jesus being tested in the wilderness if the flesh itself wasn't capable of sin, but to prove that through the blood of Christ can be overcome and resisted.

I *choose* to believe that Jesus chose to die on that cross because in my mind--that tells me just how much Jesus loved me and all of mankind--enough to sacrifice Himself willingly and not something that was forced upon Him. After all--if God was the one who sent a part of Himself in Jesus to do and accomplish this task--it was always the choice of both God and Jesus just the same to reveal to us that where the flesh is weak--He is so much stronger in Spirit.

[Ronin Truth]

Well if Jesus believed Himself to be the Messiah and if He read in the book of Isaiah how the Messiah would be "bruised for our iniquities" and "led like a lamb to the slaughter" and that "by His stripes we are healed" then it stands to reason He knew.

Thanks for the update. +rep!

[jmdrake]

Hello Terry. Thank you for your response. Yes Jesus in His flesh had to struggle with the cup. But praise the Lord love won the day!

Hi jmd,--loved-loved your post here too and I can understand where you're coming from. That sermon that preacher was giving was almost 25 years ago now, so forgive me if I don't quite remember everything he was talking about back then. What I do remember is how he presented the question in a rhetorical manner as if to assure everyone that Jesus had no other choice, but to die on that cross--

I think that there's a couple things we have to examine first here. First of all--remember when Jesus prayed that this cup might pass from Him. Although Jesus was sinless and never committed sin--His spirit and soul still inhabited human flesh and bone. He hadn't been perfected or glorified at this point. That didn't happen until after the resurrection. So although the Spirit of Jesus was willing--His flesh was still weak by asking the cup pass from Him because He knew what was coming to the point He sweated blood in fear.

Danno is right--Jesus could have summoned the angels to rescue Him from what was coming, but He didn't--He chose to die on that cross for the sins of mankind out of pure love for God and His children. The essence of love is sacrifice-- Love always requires an act of sacrifice to reveal itself to anyone.

God chose to do this for mankind before He ever became flesh in Jesus here on earth. It's not because God or Jesus could not change their minds, because we see that God has changed His mind regarding other matters in the word, but God changes not as far as who He is and all that encompasses with regard to His power and that He is that He is.

God can limit His own foreknowledge with whatever He chooses to remember or blot out. He can and has changed His mind with regard to an instance with Moses where God told Moses to stand clear because He was doing to destroy those who disobeyed while Moses was on the mountain and Moses begging God not to kill the people, but spare them instead and God did as Moses asked of Him.

This is all leading up to what we see is clearly a choice--God's choice and Jesus both. It's not that Jesus would have changed His mind and not gone through with the torture and sacrifice, but that He was as mankind in flesh and bone. The flesh being weak wars with the Spirit. After all--what was the point of Jesus being tested in the wilderness if the flesh itself wasn't capable of sin, but to prove that through the blood of Christ can be overcome and resisted.

I *choose* to believe that Jesus chose to die on that cross because in my mind--that tells me just how much Jesus loved me and all of mankind--enough to sacrifice Himself willingly and not something that was forced upon Him. After all--if God was the one who sent a part of Himself in Jesus to do and accomplish this task--it was always the choice of both God and Jesus just the same to reveal to us that where the flesh is weak--He is so much stronger in Spirit.

[Kevin007]

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
Luke 22:42

[jmdrake]

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
Luke 22:42

Yes. Jesus submitted His will to the Father. Also note that Matthew records the same prayer this way:

Matt 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

It was not possible for humanity to be saved without Jesus dying for us.

[Ronin Truth]

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
Luke 22:42

Yeah, that was pretty much along my line of thought also. +rep

Thanks!

[erowe1]

Ultimately it comes down to the definition of can't.

I "can't" jump out my window and fly right now. Its literally impossible. There's no way I could do it. I am physically constrained. In that respect there's nothing God can't do but break the laws of logic.

On the other hand, I can't just kill my roomate right now, not because I couldn't physically try, but because I just couldn't conceive of doing so. In a stronger sense, I would say Jesus couldn't just leave all of humanity to be damned... its not that he physically couldn't or even that he wouldn't have the right, but he wouldn't because he loves us.

In reality every single choice anyone has ever made about anything was like your second type. It's just usually hard or impossible for us to see how that's the case.

There is a choice in that an option exists, and external constraints would allow the person to follow whichever path they were to choose if they did. However, the internal constraints of their own nature and how it is going to behave in the circumstances it is in are such that there is a 100% certainty that they are going to choose the thing that they are going to choose. Our choices are not haphazard. Like every other event in space and time, they are the result of a chain of causes that stretches back to one single uncaused first cause.