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Thread: Amash: Libertarians and progressives can be great allies...

  1. #31

    I leave it to other readers to notice how far short any of this comes from making good on AF's promise that he would flood this thread with examples of people of influence, power and/or authority, who literally want to murder us all.

    In fact, the fact that this was what he started with only further demonstrates how ludicrously hyperbolic post #17 was.

    I see we did get some clarity on whom he meant by "us" though.
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 05-07-2021 at 02:55 PM.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So you do meet people who are dead wrong about government, but don't want you dead.

    Remember the early days of this forum, and the talk of brushfires in people's minds? They've been working hard at drying out the tinder since then. The grass is definitely browner on the other side of a bunch of fences.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to acptulsa again.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So you do meet people who are dead wrong about government, but don't want you dead.

    Remember the early days of this forum, and the talk of brushfires in people's minds? They've been working hard at drying out the tinder since then. The grass is definitely browner on the other side of a bunch of fences.
    Most of the time I don't know where they stand, if I approach somebody or make a political statement.

    If I identify them as committed Marxist, I generally shun them, depending on the situation.

    Life is too short to cast pearls before swine.

    Remember the early days of this forum, and the talk of brushfires in people's minds?
    I do, very fondly.

    It is no longer 2007.

    It is 2021, and it is a very different world.

    We lost/botched a number of critical opportunities over those years, and are now in a nine line bind and no $#@!.
    Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings. - Heinrich Heine 1823

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    I leave it to other readers to notice how far short any of this comes from making good on AF's promise that he would flood this thread with examples of people of influence, power and/or authority, who literally want to murder us all.

    In fact, the fact that this was what he started with only further demonstrates how ludicrously hyperbolic post #17 was.
    I've only just started.

    I will leave the readers to decide as well, happy to do it.

    There will be more inbound as time goes by.
    Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings. - Heinrich Heine 1823

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Most of the time I don't know where they stand, if I approach somebody or make a political statement.

    If I identify them as committed Marxist, I generally shun them, depending on the situation.

    Life is too short to cast pearls before swine.



    I do, very fondly.

    It is no longer 2007.

    It is 2021, and it is a very different world.

    We lost/botched a number of critical opportunities over those years, and are now in a nine line bind and no $#@!.
    Money talks. It is not immigrants, Americans, or any other people trying to survive. If you want a War: FedDeptEd/CommonCore, Gates&Co for Funding education, globalist corporations, etc.

    People only know what they are taught. Unless it comes from within, like people like me, they have nothing to gauge anything by, other than via School of Hard Knocks.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I've only just started.
    That's an understatement.

    You'd think you would have started with something that came nearer to supporting your claims though.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  9. #37
    BTW, when I say Progressive, I usually think of people like Tusli Gabbard and Dennis Kucinich. I tend to think of AOC as a straight up Marxist.
    ...

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    BTW, when I say Progressive, I usually think of people like Tusli Gabbard and Dennis Kucinich. I tend to think of AOC as a straight up Marxist.
    You forgot to stick Ohio Governor Mike DeWine (R) in there.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    LOL at Leftarians.

    The Great Evil Cheeto can roll back taxes, cut regulations, pull us out of corrupt UN agreements, remove us from economy destroying "climate" agreements, promote sound manufacturing, advance sound money people to the Fed board, hold the line on the 2nd amendment, rollback EPA fatwas so that I can still buy a gas powered car or truck or woodstove and not sign executive orders that have bankrupted me and put me out of work.

    But even grudging support or acknowledgement of these facts gets an argument and eye rolls and accusations of secretly blowing Trump and "Trump Humping".

    But I'm supposed to "reach across the aisle" and ally myself with the communists?

    Have you people lost your ever $#@!ing minds?

    Lenin had a name for people like that: "useful idiots".

    Ya'll better internalize something real $#@!ing fast: the Marxist left wants you dead.

    OK, you got that, DEAD...

    Not politically dead, not metaphorically dead, but for real, rotting corpse in the mass grave, dead.

    And they will say or do whatever it takes to achieve the power to accomplish that goal, including lying, bullshitting and obfuscating at levels the Great Evil Cheeto could only dream about.

    Jesus Christ...ally myself with the $#@!ing Marxist mob...I'll retire to Bedlam first.
    It's refreshing to have an adult step into the room.

    $#@! AOC and all the Marxist like her. And those like Amash that think she can be worked with. She's not the one that is going to give an inch to you while she gains inch by inch.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post

    It is no longer 2007.

    It is 2021, and it is a very different world.
    Yes, yes it is, and individuals need to get their head out of their ass and realize it.



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  14. #41
    I won't poo poo working with someone on a particular issue. Rand and Sen. Wyden seemed to work together against the patriot act.

    But I think 'great allies' is a bit of an overstatement.

    AOC isn't exactly low-hanging fruit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    BTW, when I say Progressive, I usually think of people like Tusli Gabbard and Dennis Kucinich. I tend to think of AOC as a straight up Marxist.
    This.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 05-07-2021 at 03:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    Some of you still watch the news, and it shows.

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    AOC isn't exactly low-hanging fruit.
    Those smart young students in the art deco ivory towers of the U of C aren't exactly low hanging fruit either, most of the time. Amash seems to be using her to pull those branches down out of the clouds for him.

    She's not his target. He's using her to come in under their radar.
    Because if someone doesn't "feel comfortable" with someone in this brave new middle school Official Culture, a death sentence is perfectly reasonable.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Those smart young students in the art deco ivory towers of the U of C aren't exactly low hanging fruit either, most of the time. Amash seems to be using her to pull those branches down out of the clouds for him.

    She's not his target. He's using her to come in under their radar.
    Great point. That's the other thing about this.

    It's not as if these U. of Chicago students wouldn't have encountered AOC's views, or had opportunities to listen to her and others like her express them on their campus. Amash doesn't have the ability to shelter them from exposure to whatever ideas AOC has, even if that kind of sheltering approach were the right way to address wrong ideas, which I don't accept. What he can do is provide a libertarian response to those ideas, and that's something that's a lot harder to come by there. And the fact that he does this in a polite manner that shows the students that libertarians have more in common with them than they probably assumed, makes it better, not worse.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    This.
    Kucinich has at least as much communist bona fides as AOC does.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Those smart young students in the art deco ivory towers of the U of C aren't exactly low hanging fruit either, most of the time. Amash seems to be using her to pull those branches down out of the clouds for him.

    She's not his target. He's using her to come in under their radar.
    357D chess, huh?

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    357D chess, huh?
    A sad reminder of what occurs when Libertarians presume competence they do not possess. Libertarian philosophy is out there for any college student that wants to wander down that autistic rabbit hole full of debates about ludicrous hypothetical problems born of endless purity testing devoid of any practical application to the human species. If anyone thinks Amash accomplished anything with this endeavor, then they are wildly delusional. That, or they simply do not understand the species to which they belong.

    Thank God Anti Federalist put in some heavy work in this thread.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I've only just started.

    I will leave the readers to decide as well, happy to do it.

    There will be more inbound as time goes by.
    Readers already know you are getting trolled.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Kucinich has at least as much communist bona fides as AOC does.
    And he's an idiot.

    Amash and Ron are right that libertarians can overlap with progressives on issues but that's all true of libertarians and neoconservatives. To the extent that progressives overlap with libertarians it usually by accident and the philosophical premises are almost always opposed.

    Imagine if Amash said John Bolton and libertarians can be great allies. John Bolton is a big Ayn Rand fan is infinitely more libertarian than AOC. But it would of course to be ridiculous to sing kumbaya with John Bolton. Amash and AOC and Ron and Kucinich work together because they are on the fringe not because they are ideological allies.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by BSWPaulsen View Post
    Readers already know you are getting trolled.
    This. Invisible Man will tell you he is hungry but tell you he is unable to fish and ask you to show him how. Then when you have caught a mess he will say "That's not the kinda fish I was wanting."

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Amash and Ron are right that libertarians can overlap with progressives on issues but that's all true of libertarians and neoconservatives. To the extent that progressives overlap with libertarians it usually by accident and the philosophical premises are almost always opposed.
    Of course. I don't see how that detracts from anything Amash said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Imagine if Amash said John Bolton and libertarians can be great allies.
    Not only would he be speaking the truth, and I wouldn't be able to fault him for that, but it would be so obvious that it hardly needed to be said. Even though he was one of their biggest enemies in the party, he spent his career allying with them on bill after bill, far more often than not. So have Massie and Rand. And so did Ron. And so, by the way, did Trump with no shortage of excuses being made for it here on these forums.

    And that brings up another good point. Trump himself could easily have said word-for-word what Amash did, only replacing the word "libertarian" with his own name, and replacing "decentralization" with "making America great again," and the same people who are railing against Amash would have been totally fine with that.
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 05-07-2021 at 05:13 PM.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    This. Invisible Man will tell you he is hungry but tell you he is unable to fish and ask you to show him how. Then when you have caught a mess he will say "That's not the kinda fish I was wanting."
    A most Excellent analogy. +Rep
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    This. Invisible Man will tell you he is hungry but tell you he is unable to fish and ask you to show him how. Then when you have caught a mess he will say "That's not the kinda fish I was wanting."
    AF made some pretty specific claims, and when asked to support them with examples, he wasn't able to find any.

    It wasn't I who had said what kind of fish to catch, it was his own words that he chose to use.

    You can try to help him backtrack and say that I'm nitpicking, and that of course he didn't really mean literally killing people and burying them in mass graves. But he already preempted you in post #17, and made sure that there was no mistaking that was exactly what he really meant. And so yes, now is his chance to back it up with a flood of examples of important and powerful people coming right out and saying explicitly that they support "exactly that."
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 05-07-2021 at 05:23 PM.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    357D chess, huh?
    No, man. It's no more complex and convoluted than regular old 2D chess. That's why it actually stands a chance of working without backfiring on us.
    Because if someone doesn't "feel comfortable" with someone in this brave new middle school Official Culture, a death sentence is perfectly reasonable.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    I won't poo poo working with someone on a particular issue. Rand and Sen. Wyden seemed to work together against the patriot act.

    But I think 'great allies' is a bit of an overstatement.

    AOC isn't exactly low-hanging fruit.



    This.
    About Kucinich, he was an oddball and a socialist, but he appeared to have integrity. He was against wars of aggression no matter what party was in power. I respect that in any person. He also wouldn't pull a publicity stunt such as crying at a fence in front of an empty parking lot like AOC.

    There is also a difference between wanting medicare for all, and wanting to, "tear it all down." We didn't have the perfect nation, but in a world of imperfection, I like what we had until the turn of the century. I would like a return to the 1990s, but even that maybe a pipe dream at this point. The AOCs of the world want Mogadishu or the Bolschevik Revolution-- that's where they differ from old school progressives. I believe a few leftatarians on this forum would also like to see our country turned into Somalia

    In 2016 I was really hoping that it would come down to Rand Paul vs Bernie Sanders. That would have been a true debate between two relatively principled men with strong but differing beliefs. It could have been an honest discussion for the direction of our country. Instead, America wanted a circus, and we got one. Surprisingly, Trump wasn't as bad as I thought he'd be.
    ...

  29. #55
    Amash: Libertarians and progressives can be great allies...

    [...]

    https://twitter.com/justinamash/stat...15034443091975


    [...]
    Meh. Sounds like standard issue pablum - more dull and lame than anything else, and hardly worth getting one's knickers in a twist over. It's a pretty safe bet that there was absolutely nothing whatsoever in AOC's presentation to Amash's class that they hadn't already heard a million times before (and won't hear a million times more to come).

    Much more interesting and worthy of comment is that Amash has had Michael Malice as a guest presenter to his class. Now there's someone who is far more likely to have said something actually worth hearing and thinking about - something that hadn't already been heard by the class a million times before (or even at all, for that matter).

    If Amash wants to present interesting, thought-provoking perspectives from lefty types, he'd do better to invite people like Thaddeus Russell or Glenn Greenwald, rather than AOC. On the other hand, if merely promoting the nostrums of being "allies in the [cause of ...] better governance" is the objective, then I guess AOC is as good (or as bad) as anyone else for that purpose.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 05-07-2021 at 07:03 PM.

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  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Get my PM?

    You're cool too, RJB
    I just read it. I will send a reply.
    ...



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  32. #57
    Why are there paid trolls allowed on RPF? Antifed and phil have given me some hope still for this forum

  33. #58
    Amash is helping prove that all government offices, voting and government jobs should have the Natural Born Citizen requirement of being born here to at least one parent who was born here.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by jon4liberty View Post
    Why are there paid trolls allowed on RPF? Antifed and phil have given me some hope still for this forum
    Oh come on - no need to fracture any further on this. One side is open to trying to make overtures while the other is not. Both have legitimate concerns and reasons. The beautiful thing about liberty is that it allows all views.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Kucinich has at least as much communist bona fides as AOC does.
    Which is why Ron should not have been as close to him as he was.
    Working with him on specific policies was good, befriending him and putting him in his organization was not.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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