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Thread: The breathing expert who convicted Derek Chauvin

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. Thanks for your response. I don't disagree with anything you said. I was, however, specifically asking for an explanation as to why Chauvin would keep his knee on Floyd's neck even after they couldn't find a pulse on Floyd. Yeah I get that we have a broken system and qualified immunity and all that. I get that police will get the benefit of the doubt, and sometimes (usually?) get off, for doing things that would get the rest of us 10 to 20. I don't understand why, in this one particular incident, people are still trying to argue that somehow, what Chauvin did after Floyd was dead was somehow reasonable. I get that Floyd said "I can't breath" while he was still in the car. I get that he was resisting arrest. I get that he asked to be put on the ground. I don't get the knee on the neck, but I get that other people get that. I just seems to me, call me crazy, that as soon as you can't find a pulse the proper procedure is to at that point turn someone over at try to administer CPR. Or at the very least at that point get up off the person. People on both sides of the political divide are trying to make more out of this verdict than what actually happened. I think it was a fluke. I think Chauvin's apparent lack of concern for someone who, at that point, was already dead made it easier to convict him than it otherwise would have been. I don't think this at all carries over, for example, to the Mikiah Bryant shooting. I have my doubts if even "taser, taser" woman is going to get convicted even though at the very least I think she's guilty of reckless homicide. But maybe I'm just looking at this all wrong. Who knows?
    Cops have a difficult job and they make mistakes. If we threw every cop in jail that accidentally shot someone for basically no reason, we wouldn't have any more cops, and it would just be anarchy.

    I think we just need better training/equipment. Perhaps put an orange "this is not a taser" sticker on police handguns.
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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. Thanks for your response. I don't disagree with anything you said. I was, however, specifically asking for an explanation as to why Chauvin would keep his knee on Floyd's neck even after they couldn't find a pulse on Floyd. Yeah I get that we have a broken system and qualified immunity and all that. I get that police will get the benefit of the doubt, and sometimes (usually?) get off, for doing things that would get the rest of us 10 to 20. I don't understand why, in this one particular incident, people are still trying to argue that somehow, what Chauvin did after Floyd was dead was somehow reasonable. I get that Floyd said "I can't breath" while he was still in the car. I get that he was resisting arrest. I get that he asked to be put on the ground. I don't get the knee on the neck, but I get that other people get that. I just seems to me, call me crazy, that as soon as you can't find a pulse the proper procedure is to at that point turn someone over at try to administer CPR. Or at the very least at that point get up off the person. People on both sides of the political divide are trying to make more out of this verdict than what actually happened. I think it was a fluke. I think Chauvin's apparent lack of concern for someone who, at that point, was already dead made it easier to convict him than it otherwise would have been. I don't think this at all carries over, for example, to the Mikiah Bryant shooting. I have my doubts if even "taser, taser" woman is going to get convicted even though at the very least I think she's guilty of reckless homicide. But maybe I'm just looking at this all wrong. Who knows?
    I never said anything or anyone was reasonable. I did say that I personally know that fentanyl can stop someone from breathing.

    I agree that cop didn’t do himself any favors by robotically kneeling on a dead person who has just been pleading for help.

    I think it sucks that this whole thing started over the alleged crime of counterfeiting and that the real counterfeiting gang has much to do with all the pain and division and stress of the lower classes in this country.. and the cops aren’t kneeling on them, they protect them, completely obliviously..



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  5. #33
    Derek Chauvin did not murder George Floyd​

    Exclusive: Jack Cashill talks to doc convinced 'cardiac arrhythmia' led to suspect's death​


    By Jack Cashill
    Published May 5, 2021

    The one witness most responsible for the conviction of former police officer Derek Chauvin for the "murder" of George Floyd was Irish-born, Chicago-based pulmonologist Dr. Martin Tobin.

    "You're seeing here fatal injury to the brain from a lack of oxygen," Dr. Tobin told the jurors as they watched the famed video of Floyd's last minutes.

    According to the New York Times, Tobin claimed that Chauvin and the other officers "restricted Mr. Floyd's breathing by flattening his rib cage against the pavement and pushing his cuffed hands into his torso, and by the placement of Mr. Chauvin's knees on his neck and back."

    "I don't think I've seen an expert witness as effective as this," a former public defender told the Times, and its cheerleading reporters seemed fully to agree. "Jurors appeared to be riveted by Dr. Tobin's ability to break down complex physiological concepts, at times scribbling notes in unison," they gushed.

    Watching from his home in Texas, Dr. John Dunn was not as enthused by Tobin's performance. "Appalled" would be more like it.

    Unlike Tobin, who admitted to having "never done this type of work in this nature before," Dunn has "made a business of studying cause of death and sudden cause of death." Dunn has been an emergency physician since 1974, his last post being as a contract faculty member for the Army Emergency Medicine training program at Fort Hood Texas.

    Dr. Dunn is a former chairman of the medico-legal committee for the American College of Emergency Physicians. He is also board certified in legal medicine and co-author with a pathologist of a chapter on forensics for the American College of Legal Medicine.

    A law school grad and an (inactive) member of the bar in three states, Dunn has been a lecturer in medical-legal matters for more than 35 years. He has followed the case from the beginning, studied the videos and reviewed the autopsy report.

    "Asphyxiation was not the cause of George Floyd's death," he tells me. "It was cardiac arrhythmia during an episode of excited delirium, a well-known cause of sudden death that was the subject of an extensive research project and monograph by the American College of Emergency Physicians, published in 2009."

    "An honest reading of the autopsy leaves cardiac arrhythmia as the most likely cause of death – amplified by the tox and autopsy that showed meth on board, high levels of fentanyl and bad cardiac disease, both arteriosclerotic/atherosclerotic coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease (thick muscled big heart)."

    Dr. Dunn continues, "Both of these cardiac problems produce a heart at risk of sudden death from a fatal rhythm disturbance. Exertion and excitement and stimulant drug effects increase that risk. Fentanyl is not a stimulant but can certainly contribute to delirium and excitement – meth is all about stimulant."

    In language too colorful for this publication, Dunn flatly rejects Tobin's notion that Chauvin suffocated Floyd. He makes the ironic case that pulmonologists routinely put their COVID patients who need a ventilator in the prone position to better ventilate their lungs.

    Dunn argues, "All of this talk about the prone position ignores the fact that the prone position has long been standard police practice especially for large, aggressive men like Floyd."

    The reason is simple. Prone is the one position that best neutralizes the suspect's ability to fight back. "This was not a homicide," says Dunn bluntly. "It was death while resisting arrest."

    Dunn makes the common-sense point that when a man with a heart condition dies while shoveling snow, cardiac arrest is almost inevitably the diagnosis.

    But when a man with "severe coronary artery disease" as well as intoxicating levels of opiate and a stimulating level of amphetamine dies after a massive exertion, the State attributed the death to asphyxiation.

    "Imagine what it would take to asphyxiate a 223-pound, 6-4 man [when] there is no evidence of a choke hold?" asks Dunn.

    If Dunn is right, the State of Minnesota convicted an innocent man of murder in the second degree. Without the asphyxia diagnosis, there is no murder case against Chauvin and his fellow officers.

    Tobin did, however, put on a good show. To sell asphyxia as the cause of death, he had to. His assignment was made all the more difficult since the one man to examine Floyd's body, Hennepin County Medical Examiner Dr. Andrew Baker, failed to notice any signs of asphyxia.

    Conceded the Times, "[Tobin's] testimony may help prosecutors overcome the fact that the official autopsy report did not use the word 'asphyxia,' and seemed to make irrelevant the exact position of Mr. Chauvin's knees."

    As Baker noted, Chauvin's knees did no damage. "Layer by layer dissection of the anterior strap muscles of the neck discloses no areas of contusion or hemorrhage within the musculature," wrote Baker on the autopsy report. "The thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone are intact. The larynx is lined by intact mucosa."

    In addition, observed Baker, "The ribs, sternum, and vertebral bodies are visibly and palpably intact." In the final analysis, it may not have mattered what Tobin said. The jurors were as eager to convict as was the State.

    Tobin and the other physicians who testified for the State, Dunn argues, "are a classic example of science hijacked by politics – kind of like COVID, climate scares, the social sciences, most professional scientific work."

    Dunn adds, "Politics dominates everything and that means racial politics for sure."





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  6. #34
    I would have thought Chauvin was a major contributor to his death solely because Tony Tima died the same way, and he wasn't on fentanyl, nor did he have any underlying heart problems.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Havnes View Post
    I would have thought Chauvin was a major contributor to his death solely because Tony Tima died the same way, and he wasn't on fentanyl, nor did he have any underlying heart problems.
    True. And @Danke, "excited delirum" is not a medically accepted diagnosis. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is. What is the reason for Chauvin keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for 2 minutes after they couldn't find a pulse? A new form of CPR?
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  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    True. And @Danke, "excited delirum" is not a medically accepted diagnosis. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is. What is the reason for Chauvin keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for 2 minutes after they couldn't find a pulse? A new form of CPR?
    Certainly not justifying any actions of that day. But from a camera angle taken from the street(not the sidewalk) it looks like he was kneeling on his shoulder blade.
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  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Certainly not justifying any actions of that day. But from a camera angle taken from the street(not the sidewalk) it looks like he was kneeling on his shoulder blade.
    Okay. I'll take your word for it. There definitely wasn't any neck trauma. But like you said, that doesn't justify what happend. Once it was determined Floyd didn't have a pulse he should have been put on his back and they should have started CPR. I think Chauvin's defense team did as good of a job as they could trying to explain away what happened by talking about distractions from the crowd or talking about COVID patients being put in a prone position or George Floyd being asked to be put on the ground. Had I been on the jury I would have considered all of that. But I wouldn't be able to get past "They checked for a pulse, found none, and kept him on his stomach for 2 more minutes." And yeah, Tony Timpa was done worse. And none of this was worth the rioting and looting. Black Lives Matter looted for a year....and all they got was a "Stop Asian Hate - don't call COVID Chinese" nonsense bill.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

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