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  1. #1

    Thumbs down Governor Ron DeSantis signs largest tax hike in Florida history:

    From Politico:

    While you are sleeping (maybe), Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis signed FL SB50 (21R) into law, which will require online retailers to collect sales taxes and then use the more than $1 billion in new tax revenue generated by this change to cut unemployment taxes paid by businesses as well as the commercial rent tax. DeSantis' decision to sign the bill came just hours before the measure would automatically became law. The governor's office waited until 11 p.m. to officially file his bill-signing letter with the Department of State. This led to speculation from some Democrats that the governor did not want to publicize his bill signing because it could be seen as a massive tax increase — a viewpoint that even some Republicans have suggested. Regardless of whether it's a "tax increase" or a "tax collection" change, consumers shopping online will pay more. And the money will be used to help large corporations.
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  3. #2
    Wonderful trend, Trump, DeSantis & Co.

    Give them all (R) passes.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  4. #3

    Thumbs down

    Oh Boy.

    Republicans are really worthless.

  5. #4
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  6. #5
    It's not a tax hike. It just collects tax on out of state purchases and uses it to help in state businesses. There is nothing wrong with it. The net result of it will help the state's businesses be stronger and add jobs in Florida.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    It's not a tax hike.
    Of course it is a tax hike. More money will be leaving my pockets and going into government coffers.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Of course it is a tax hike. More money will be leaving my pockets and going into government coffers.
    Money that you legally should have been paying already. .

    DeSantis didn't raise any taxes or impose any new taxes.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    From this article:
    The bill is estimated to tax consumers $1 billion a year, with the money first earmarked for the unemployment trust fund, which became depleted because of massive job losses during the COVID-19 pandemic. Businesses pay taxes that go into the trust fund and, without another source of money, would have faced higher taxes to replenish the fund.
    To those saying this isn't a tax hike, if it isn't a tax hike then how is it supposed to result in the state having more revenue to replenish its unemployment fund?
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 04-20-2021 at 01:50 PM.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    From this article:


    To those saying this isn't a tax hike, if it isn't a tax hike then how is it supposed to result in the state having more revenue to replenish its unemployment fund?
    The state of FL will now be collecting sales tax that was already imposed but not collected in most cases.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    The state of FL will now be collecting sales tax that was already imposed but not collected in most cases.
    So they'll be collecting more taxes than they did prior to the signing of this bill.

    The tax burden being born by the people of Florida, that is, the amount of money people will be paying in taxes, all else being equal (i.e. the same people spending the same amount of money in the same ways), will be higher.

    In other words, this is a tax hike.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    So they'll be collecting more taxes than they did prior to the signing of this bill.

    The tax burden being born by the people of Florida, that is, the amount of money people will be paying in taxes, all else being equal (i.e. the same people spending the same amount of money in the same ways), will be higher.

    In other words, this is a tax hike.
    Nice spin. They already were responsible for those taxes, they just weren't paying them.

  14. #12
    which will require online retailers to collect sales taxes and then use the more than $1 billion in new tax revenue generated by this change to cut unemployment taxes paid by businesses as well as the commercial rent tax
    Do they offset? Does Florida have a sales tax that currently does not apply to Amazon or other online sellers? Is this taxing Amazon purchases to reduce state business taxes?
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Do they offset? Does Florida have a sales tax that currently does not apply to Amazon or other online sellers? Is this taxing Amazon purchases to reduce state business taxes?
    The new law appears to be in response to a 2018 US Supreme Court decision that overturned an earlier decision that held that a state couldn't require an out-of-state seller to collect sales tax if the seller had no physical presence in the state. Under the prior law the buyer paid no sales tax but instead owed use tax to his state of residence. But it was usually impossible for the state to enforce the use tax, except with respect to very large purchases (e.g., an aircraft) or business assets. If you lived, say, in New York and ordered a computer and monitor from Dell for your use at home, you owed NY use tax (because no sales tax was collected on the purchase), but no one ever paid it.

    So it's not really a tax increase. It's just requiring the seller to collect what the buyer owes anyway.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The new law appears to be in response to a 2018 US Supreme Court decision that overturned an earlier decision that held that a state couldn't require an out-of-state seller to collect sales tax if the seller had no physical presence in the state. Under the prior law the buyer paid no sales tax but instead owed use tax to his state of residence. But it was usually impossible for the state to enforce the use tax, except with respect to very large purchases (e.g., an aircraft) or business assets. If you lived, say, in New York and ordered a computer and monitor from Dell for your use at home, you owed NY use tax (because no sales tax was collected on the purchase), but no one ever paid it.

    So it's not really a tax increase. It's just requiring the seller to collect what the buyer owes anyway.
    Practically speaking, replacing a tax that buyers can easily evade without consequence with one that they cannot, is the same to them as a tax hike.

  17. #15
    I didn't realize this wasn't nationwide yet.
    Since the supreme court decision I thought states got on this quickly.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    It's not a tax hike. [because hand-waving]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    So it's not really a tax increase. [because hand-waving]
    Some people will pay more taxes now than they were paying before. Don't piss down their backs and tell them it's raining.

    If you're going to make excuses for it, fine - make excuses for it. But at least have the guts to call it what it is.

    It's a tax hike, period - all hand-waving to the contrary notwithstanding.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 04-20-2021 at 11:43 AM.

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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Some people will pay more taxes now than they were paying before. Don't piss down their backs and tell them it's raining.

    If you're going to make excuses for it, fine - make excuses for it. But at least have the guts to call it what it is.

    It's a tax hike, period - all hand-waving to the contrary notwithstanding.
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Occam's Banana again."

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    It's a tax hike, period - all hand-waving to the contrary notwithstanding.
    So cameras at stop lights constitute fine increases because they catch people who break traffic laws (and increase the risk of a collision) and who would skate but for the cameras?

    And radar guns should be called fine increases as well. For that matter, hiring more IRS employees or increasing the IRS's budget is a tax hike. In fact, anything that helps the enforcement of tax collection or the detection of unlawful activity that carries a monetary penalty is a tax/fine hike, right?

    "Tax hike" in this context is a misleading rhetorical phrase designed to appeal to people who are either ignorant about the existence of use taxes or don't care about complying with them.

    Will the revenue collected by state governments in general or Florida in particular increase? Yes. Did the tax payable by purchasers increase? No.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    So cameras at stop lights constitute fine increases because they catch people who break traffic laws (and increase the risk of a collision) and who would skate but for the cameras?
    Yes. That is the whole point of cameras at stop lights. The jurisdictions that use them succeed in stealing more money by their use than they otherwise could. If the point was merely to distribute fines more evenly among all those who violate traffic laws with a method that captures a very high percentage of them, rather than a much lower percentage, without resulting in more money being taken from the population, then that could be done by lowering the amount of fee per violation commensurately with the expected increase in the number of fees collected. But this is not what is done. Jurisdictions use stop light cameras because it results in more revenue for them.

    Also, stop light cameras do not only result in fees for people who do things that increase the risk of collisions. They result in fees for anyone who runs red lights, no matter how careful they are, no matter how empty of traffic the intersection is, and no matter what extenuating circumstances might justify running it. A human enforcer of traffic laws at least has the ability to consider such factors before deciding to write a ticket. A stop light camera is an unthinking machine that applies a one-size-fits-all rule to all cars that pass under it regardless of the differences between them. A person who at 2 am needs to get somewhere without delay, and who slowly approaches a red light, confirms that there are no other cars anywhere to be seen in all directions and then proceeds to drive through it as safely as if it were a green light, will receive a ticket in the mail a week later by a machine that knew nothing of safety, without ever having been given a chance to explain the extenuating circumstances before the ticket was issued, or even having been notified on the spot at the time of the violation that a ticket was issued so that they could make a point to jot down notes and collect evidence that they could later use to argue their way out of a ticket before a judge if needed.

    No, stop light cameras are not about decreasing risks of collision. A means of increasing the money a jurisdiction collects by fines is precisely all they are.

    And yes, by the same token, a means of collecting more money by taxes is precisely all that the bill this thread is about is.
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 04-21-2021 at 07:03 AM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    They result in fees for anyone who runs red lights, no matter how careful they are, no matter how empty of traffic the intersection is, and no matter what extenuating circumstances might justify running it. A human enforcer of traffic laws at least has the ability to consider such factors before deciding to write a ticket. A stop light camera is an unthinking machine that applies a one-size-fits-all rule to all cars that pass under it regardless of the differences between them.
    Very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    A person who at 2 am needs to get somewhere without delay, and who slowly approaches a red light, confirms that there are no other cars anywhere to be seen in all directions and then proceeds to drive through it as safely as if it were a green light, will receive a ticket in the mail a week later by a machine that knew nothing of safety, without ever having been given a chance to explain the extenuating circumstances before the ticket was issued, or even having been notified on the spot at the time of the violation that a ticket was issued so that they could make a point to jot down notes and collect evidence that they could later use to argue their way out of a ticket before a judge if needed.
    No. You make some good points about the human factor there. But those cameras are generally triggered at the moment the light turns green the other way. Someone honestly trying to get through legally but misses by inches, causing no danger, gets fined. Someone who flat out enters the intersection well after his or her light has turned red, when opposing traffic is flowing freely and the danger is greatest, goes undetected.
    Because if someone doesn't "feel comfortable" with someone in this brave new middle school Official Culture, a death sentence is perfectly reasonable.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    So cameras at stop lights constitute fine increases because they catch people who break traffic laws (and increase the risk of a collision) and who would skate but for the cameras?

    When government chooses where to place the cameras based upon the ability to make the greatest profit, yes. When it is marketed as a revenue-generating proposition, yes.

    The goal of those sorts of cameras is not to solve some societal ill but to reap the revenues of traffic fines.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

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  25. #22
    I'd like someone to make the case over how it helps large corporations.

    Seems like it could just as easily hurt companies like Amazon.

    Most of your mom & pop businesses have physical stores. I know people who will actually do their window shopping in stores and then check online to see if they can get it cheaper, and when you subtract a ~7% sales tax, it's always cheaper. Leave the store, place your order, and in a few days it's at your doorstep. The small business is the one getting screwed in this scenario.

    The alternative is that they could slash sales tax paid through physical storefronts to nothing, to balance it out. That's not likely to happen, and hell will freeze over before it happens in a state that doesn't have income tax.

    2nd alternative: Get rid of sales tax completely and implement income tax. (yeah, literally no one is a fan of that one)

    No one likes taxes, but Politico making the claim that this will hurt small business seems awfully like they're playing right into the hands of companies like Amazon.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 04-20-2021 at 11:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
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    It started silly.
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  26. #23
    Here is the SCOTUS case in question which allows governments to enforce tax laws across state lines:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...._Wayfair,_Inc.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  27. #24
    Yeah, me too. "It's not a tax hike, it's a new tax." That's supposed to make me feel better?

    Because if someone doesn't "feel comfortable" with someone in this brave new middle school Official Culture, a death sentence is perfectly reasonable.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Some people will pay more taxes now than they were paying before. Don't piss down their backs and tell them it's raining.

    If you're going to make excuses for it, fine - make excuses for it. But at least have the guts to call it what it is.

    It's a tax hike, period - all hand-waving to the contrary notwithstanding.
    +Rep

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Yeah, me too. "It's not a tax hike, it's a new tax." That's supposed to make me feel better?

    + Rep
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

    An Agorist Primer

  30. #26
    It's not a tax hike, it's a mandatory request for voluntary donations
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    It's not a tax hike, it's a mandatory request for voluntary donations
    I might have to clip that one Tex

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    From this article:

    The bill is estimated to tax consumers $1 billion a year, with the money first earmarked for the unemployment trust fund, which became depleted because of massive job losses during the COVID-19 pandemic. Businesses pay taxes that go into the trust fund and, without another source of money, would have faced higher taxes to replenish the fund.
    To those saying this isn't a tax hike, if it isn't a tax hike then how is it supposed to result in the state having more revenue to replenish its unemployment fund?
    Note also that the "massive job losses during the COVID-19 pandemic" did not actually occur due to the pandemic, but rather due to the policies imposed by the Safety Fascists in reaction to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
    It is a consumption tax which is fine if it excludes food which it does, this encourages savings and Buffy should have to pay tax on her $200 hat from Amazon. When online prices for China junk is higher people start going to thrift stores to by a flashlight which is what they should have been doing all along.
    Hail, tovarisch! Given your demonstrated knowledge of what people should (or should not) buy, where they should (or should not) buy it, and how much they should (or should not) pay for it, it is my great honor to nominate you as Economy Tzar of All Amerika!

    May I respectfully suggest that if you get the position, you appoint Comrade Bernie as your co-Commissar? Like you, he too knows how the people should (or should not) be permitted to spend our money - and making sure that all the Comrades Buffy out there don't spend our money the wrong way is a lot of work, so you will probably need some help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    So cameras at stop lights constitute fine increases because they catch people who break traffic laws (and increase the risk of a collision) and who would skate but for the cameras?

    And radar guns should be called fine increases as well. For that matter, hiring more IRS employees or increasing the IRS's budget is a tax hike. In fact, anything that helps the enforcement of tax collection or the detection of unlawful activity that carries a monetary penalty is a tax/fine hike, right?

    "Tax hike" in this context is a misleading rhetorical phrase designed to appeal to people who are either ignorant about the existence of use taxes or don't care about complying with them.

    Will the revenue collected by state governments in general or Florida in particular increase? Yes. Did the tax payable by purchasers increase? No.
    A "tax hike" in this context is exactly what it is - again, all obfuscatory hand-waving to the contrary notwithstanding.

    Unless traffic cameras, radar guns, and IRS agents are all just fake, inoperative props that don't actually do anything and don't result in the actual enforcement of any fines or collections, then they are in no way analogous to some unenforced "on paper only" rule.

    And when cameras, guns, and agents are all fake and inoperative, but are then replaced with real and operative ones, then yes - yes, they would indeed effectively "constitute fine increases" and "tax/fine hike[s]." Ditto for any previously unenforced tax rules that are replaced with enforced ones.

    You don't get to have it both ways. Either this is a new tax hike, or it is an old tax hike that is only now being effectuated. Either way, it is a tax hike. To assert otherwise is willfully obtuse.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 04-22-2021 at 08:40 PM.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Note also that the "massive job losses during the COVID-19 pandemic" did not actually occur due to the pandemic, but rather due to the policies imposed by the Safety Fascists in reaction to it.
    This is something that needs to be hammered every time some unthinking muddlehead makes the error.

  34. #30
    Actually, maybe there's a way to capitalize on the rhetoric of this not being a tax hike.

    So the argument goes that there now exists a tax that has no way of being enforced that the state says people are supposed to pay, but that's entirely up to them to choose to pay voluntarily, and hardly anybody does, and there's no consequence for those who don't. And this tax is being kept nominally the same as far as its rate, but its method of enforcement is being changed to make it much more difficult to evade so that it's expected that the actual amount the state will collect will be much closer to the amount that's theoretically mandated by the letter of the law.

    If this is not a tax hike, then the opposite must also obtain. If we replace all the obligatory taxing and spending of government with something voluntary, then this would not be a cut in any taxation or spending. The letter-of-the-law rates and dollar amounts would all stay the same, but it would be left up to taxpayers to decide whether or not to contribute, and face no consequences if they choose not to. For example, the entire public education budget of a state could be replaced with funding that is 100% collected by voluntary contributions (which may or may not be given), and nobody who refuses to call this Florida bill a tax hike would have any grounds for calling that cut in public education spending.

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