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Thread: Conservatives lost the culture war, Libertarians never fought one.

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ResponsibleIdiot View Post
    https://www.wordnik.com/words/culture

    The arts, beliefs, customs, institutions, and other products of human work and thought considered as a unit, especially with regard to a particular time or social group.

    If the kids in this country are not taught what would be considered good, which can include family, work ethic, frugality, civility, and working towards a future, then we lose. If we don't have this, there's no point in moving forward. Communism/Socialism/Marxism is not as likely to take hold when these cultural values are held in high regard.
    Okay. I didn't read this before I asked you what your cultural values are. Let's apply what you just said to Somali and Japanese immigrants. Both believe in a hard work ethic. Both believe in frugality. Japan was historically pro family but the family in Japan has been breaking down lately. The family structure in Somalia is still very strong. In fact that's what caused the "Blackhawk Down" fiasco. U.N. Pakistani peace keepers were trying to disarm clan militias. (Pakistani peace keepers, incidentally, have a sordid history of child sex abuse). Aidid ambushed them. (I guess he liked the right to keep and bear arms). Bill Clinton decided to arrest Aidid. (That was none of our business). The other clan leaders met with Aidid to try to get him to surrender. The U.S. attacked the meeting place with helicopter gunships. A U.S. informant had said there were no women there that day...but he was wrong. That had the undesirable effect of uniting all of Mogadishu against the U.S. presence. That is the context of what happened before the incident of Blackhawk Down and the successful arrest of an Aidid lieutenant that turned into a desperate rescue attempt for downed helicopter pilots. But that is no more indicative of the Somali people as a culture than World War II was indicative of Japan and Germany.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. I didn't read this before I asked you what your cultural values are. Let's apply what you just said to Somali and Japanese immigrants. Both believe in a hard work ethic. Both believe in frugality. Japan was historically pro family but the family in Japan has been breaking down lately. The family structure in Somalia is still very strong. In fact that's what caused the "Blackhawk Down" fiasco. U.N. Pakistani peace keepers were trying to disarm clan militias. (Pakistani peace keepers, incidentally, have a sordid history of child sex abuse). Aidid ambushed them. (I guess he liked the right to keep and bear arms). Bill Clinton decided to arrest Aidid. (That was none of our business). The other clan leaders met with Aidid to try to get him to surrender. The U.S. attacked the meeting place with helicopter gunships. A U.S. informant had said there were no women there that day...but he was wrong. That had the undesirable effect of uniting all of Mogadishu against the U.S. presence. That is the context of what happened before the incident of Blackhawk Down and the successful arrest of an Aidid lieutenant that turned into a desperate rescue attempt for downed helicopter pilots. But that is no more indicative of the Somali people as a culture than World War II was indicative of Japan and Germany.
    https://freewestmedia.com/2020/10/07...s-isnt-sweden/

    I didn't reference Somalis because of some things that happened in the past. I look at how its playing out today in other countries. Maybe they are more likely to be radicalized because of things we've done in the past, but it doesn't follow that they should be allowed into the country. Face it, taking in some groups as immigrants is more of a risk than taking in others. And that's if we were to take in a bunch of immigrants. Im not sure we should be taking in massive amounts of people from other places.

    Trust me when I say that I don't think it would be the biggest deal if the world was less radicalized and more civilized and peaceful. But thats not the world we live in today. We can take the example of Europe. They are gradually being overtaken by migrants. There are communities in the UK and France (and Sweden, as cited above) where its like living in a different country. There are politicians there who have absolutely no problem with the white European identity slowly being swept into the dust heap of history. The people disagree though.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by ResponsibleIdiot View Post
    https://freewestmedia.com/2020/10/07...s-isnt-sweden/

    I didn't reference Somalis because of some things that happened in the past. I look at how its playing out today in other countries. Maybe they are more likely to be radicalized because of things we've done in the past, but it doesn't follow that they should be allowed into the country. Face it, taking in some groups as immigrants is more of a risk than taking in others. And that's if we were to take in a bunch of immigrants. Im not sure we should be taking in massive amounts of people from other places.

    Trust me when I say that I don't think it would be the biggest deal if the world was less radicalized and more civilized and peaceful. But thats not the world we live in today. We can take the example of Europe. They are gradually being overtaken by migrants. There are communities in the UK and France (and Sweden, as cited above) where its like living in a different country. There are politicians there who have absolutely no problem with the white European identity slowly being swept into the dust heap of history. The people disagree though.
    I don't live in Sweden. I live in the United States. And there is a significant Somali refuge population in the United States. The people in the United States cause the most unrest have far more in common with the Canadians I showed you (and I'd like to hear your comment on that video) than with the Somali refugee population in the United States.

    Edit: Also since you made the comparison about Japan, what are your thoughts on the influence of the Yakuza?

    https://thoughtcatalog.com/michael-k...ut-the-yakuza/
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-14-2020 at 08:16 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I don't live in Sweden. I live in the United States. And there is a significant Somali refuge population in the United States. The people in the United States cause the most unrest have far more in common with the Canadians I showed you (and I'd like to hear your comment on that video) than with the Somali refugee population in the United States.

    Edit: Also since you made the comparison about Japan, what are your thoughts on the influence of the Yakuza?

    https://thoughtcatalog.com/michael-k...ut-the-yakuza/
    I just read the article and yeah thats bad. I hope they are stopped. But at least they act with some principles and also some honor. I would say that the identity uprisings and all this woke $#@! pose a much bigger threat. The things you see today with antifa and BLM are kind of devoid of civilization, so there are no principles that apply across the board and definitely no honor. I don't think the yakuza are trying to undo western civilization.

    I just mentioned immigration as one of the issues when it comes to culture. The homegrown cultural issues are definitely a larger problem. My main point is that it is okay to push our own cultural values (assuming they're similar) because others will push their woke nonsense. Its okay to take sides and be unapologetic about it.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ResponsibleIdiot View Post
    So I used to lurk in these forums a while back when Ron Paul was still formally involved with politics. I also used to be of the opinion that every election was of utmost importance.

    Then I divorced myself from politics, focused on my career and personal life, and my life improved tremendously.
    Congrats on your personal successes and welcome to the forums!
    It's nice to see new members joining who aren't just some of Danke's lady friends trying to drum up more business.

    Now, because of Cov-aids-19 and the rioting, I'm back to worrying about politics, maybe for good reason. Things seem to be devolving at a much more rapid pace than, let's say, 10 years ago.
    Understandable and it certainly does seem that way.

    I'm not so much the anarcho capitalist I used to be. Something bothers me. Did we all miss the bus when so many of us (myself included) focused so much on policy and philosophy that culture became an afterthought? After all, cultural Marxists were never really THAT mainstream until recent years, but they have slowly and gradually taken over all the important institutions and now they have several seats in congress.
    Yes but like tod said, most of the real crazy $#@! is online and in big cities.

    However, I did stumble upon a weird open mic night last night at a local bar. (A bunch of upper middle class suburban white kids rapping about muthafuckas and $#@! whilst wearing BLM facemasks.)


    It's funny. We free marketers understand time preference very well when it comes to economics, but the Marxists played the long game very well when it came to culture. And they have been consistently winning for some time now. We suck. Libertarians are the most reasonable, principled, and USELESS people ever.
    I don't suck.

    My views have changed. This is just my opinion and you can disagree with me. I'd be happy to hear what everyone has to say. Here it is: culture is more important than policy and will prevail over politics every time.
    I agree with Rev 3.0 but I do think culture is important and that we can join the fray without being on either team.

    Let's ask a simple question. Did America become a great nation because of the general character of the people or because of the government created by a few men? It's probably both, but which is more important? This is kind of a chicken and egg question too.
    Tough question. I keep going back and forth so I'm going to have to say both.


    Also, would a libertarian government even survive any significant amount of time in a BLM type culture?
    I think so because people would be more prosperous.




    I love the simple saying, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." Same thing with the situation that we find ourselves in today. Socialism/Marxism is here today not because some politicians are pushing for it, but because generally we as a people are ready for it.
    I'm not ready for it and I'm a people (most days).

    I think that's why we need to be in the culture wars fray. Most of this crap is coming from directionless young people. They're looking for someone to show them the way. Be that someone. You or I may never get on the news or have the mass public's attention but you can make a difference with the people you come in contact with.

    Having said all this, I think the best we can hope for is a peaceful dissolution of the nation.
    I agree.

    #suzexit
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ResponsibleIdiot View Post
    [...] culture is more important than policy and will prevail over politics every time.
    I don't think it's so much that culture is "more important" than policy (you are inevitably going to have both). It's that culture determines the general "terms and conditions" under which policy will be expressed, understood and enforced. At root, those who create and promulgate policy will do so for all the usual (praxeologically analyzable) reasons, independent of culture. But like water to a fish, culture is the matrix in which policy will swim - and some waters are more polluted and inimical than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    I agree with Rev 3.0 but I do think culture is important and that we can join the fray without being on either team.
    I also agree with r3 with the addition of Suzanimal's proviso.

    There are matters that are critical to the establishment and maintenance of any civil society and libertarian polity - matters which are simply not addressable by or accountable for under libertarian theory. This is due, not to any lack or flaw in libertarian theory, but to the fact that libertarian theory is not a "Theory of Everything." Libertarian theory is most properly regarded as primarily legalistic in nature (and as "moralistic" only secondarily, if at all). Libertarian theory offers no cultural dicta, but as a practical matter, it is plain that the ethos and mores fostered by a given culture can and will be more or less congenial (or hostile) to the effective implementation of libertarian theory. A libertarian polity cannot live by theory alone.

    This is why culture matters, even though it is external to libertarian theory.
    https://i.imgur.com/BwU46s8.png

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  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    I don't think it's so much that culture is "more important" than policy (you are inevitably going to have both). It's that culture determines the general "terms and conditions" under which policy will be expressed, understood and enforced. At root, those who create and promulgate policy will do so for all the usual (praxeologically analyzable) reasons, independent of culture. But like water to a fish, culture is the matrix in which policy will swim - and some waters are more polluted and inimical than others.



    I also agree with r3 with the addition of Suzanimal's proviso.

    There are matters that are critical to the establishment and maintenance of any civil society and libertarian polity - matters which are simply not addressable by or accountable for under libertarian theory. This is due, not to any lack or flaw in libertarian theory, but to the fact that libertarian theory is not a "Theory of Everything." Libertarian theory is most properly regarded as primarily legalistic in nature (and as "moralistic" only secondarily, if at all). Libertarian theory offers no cultural dicta, but as a practical matter, it is plain that the ethos and mores fostered by a given culture can and will be more or less congenial (or hostile) to the effective implementation of libertarian theory. A libertarian polity cannot live by theory alone.

    This is why culture matters, even though it is external to libertarian theory.
    There are a lot of factors that affect everything. I try to keep everything very basic. As a general rule for me, the values and institutions which lead to decentralized power are good. Intact family, so when you get in trouble, there are people who can support you. Churches, which are very much local institutions where the people in the community support each other. Good work ethic, so you can support yourself. Problem solving and risk taking, so you can think for yourself. Honor, because most rules and good conduct in life are implicitly known.

    And I know I'm going to get $#@! for saying this, but segregation along some lines can be a very good thing. People who are like you are more likely to support you. Ever been to Little Italy or Chinatown? People who were once immigrants (who brought some good values with them) in a potentially hostile place banded together in their own communities.
    (Also the reason why the crime in Chicago is somewhat tolerable. Most of the crime happens in a few neighborhoods and as long as it stays in those neighborhoods, most people are fine with it (I'm fine with it, I didn't cause it and I can't really stop it either). People downtown started complaining and moving out recently because the ghettos brought the violence and looting there. They broke the unspoken rule big time.)

    Authoritarian states hate these things because it takes power away from them. Which is why we see so much group think, hysteria, laziness, and people looking to the government for support.

  10. #38
    As to the @Suzanimal proviso, or the @Occam's Banana fish-water corollary, I'll say this. At extremes, culture may have an important effect on important policies, but those cultural extremes are themselves downstream from policy. In other words, in anything resembling a market society, the culture is going to be fairly functional. Whatever the religion, language, cuisine, or customary headgear, people are going to be inclined to work for a living and otherwise behave in a tolerably civilized fashion. It's Darwinian; people behave that way, because, otherwise, they don't survive (or are at least very marginalized). Whereas, the extremes of depravity that we see, like extremes of economic inefficiency in business, can only exist (for long) by virtue of state subsidies, because they're otherwise self-correcting (self-destroying). A socialist state breeds depravity; a liberal state breeds decency. The cultural problems in this country (e.g. absent parents, glorification of gangsterism, lack of work ethic) are pretty directly attributable to state policies: e.g. the welfare-state and drug prohibition. The US did not become socialistic because it became depraved; it became depraved because it became socialistic. Now, it may be true that more depravity breeds more socialism in a vicious cycle, but to focus on culture is to miss the bigger picture.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    As to the @Suzanimal proviso, or the @Occam's Banana fish-water corollary, I'll say this. At extremes, culture may have an important effect on important policies, but those cultural extremes are themselves downstream from policy. In other words, in anything resembling a market society, the culture is going to be fairly functional. Whatever the religion, language, cuisine, or customary headgear, people are going to be inclined to work for a living and otherwise behave in a tolerably civilized fashion. It's Darwinian; people behave that way, because, otherwise, they don't survive (or are at least very marginalized). Whereas, the extremes of depravity that we see, like extremes of economic inefficiency in business, can only exist (for long) by virtue of state subsidies, because they're otherwise self-correcting (self-destroying). A socialist state breeds depravity; a liberal state breeds decency. The cultural problems in this country (e.g. absent parents, glorification of gangsterism, lack of work ethic) are pretty directly attributable to state policies: e.g. the welfare-state and drug prohibition. The US did not become socialistic because it became depraved; it became depraved because it became socialistic. Now, it may be true that more depravity breeds more socialism in a vicious cycle, but to focus on culture is to miss the bigger picture.
    Backwards as usual, bad culture prevents anything reasonably resembling a market society, it drags you down to 3rd world status and keeps you there, it is the difference between advanced societies and those still in the stone age and those stuck at every level in between.
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  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    A socialist state breeds depravity; a liberal state breeds decency. The cultural problems in this country (e.g. absent parents, glorification of gangsterism, lack of work ethic) are pretty directly attributable to state policies: e.g. the welfare-state and drug prohibition.
    Well why do some groups lead the charge into depravity? You have some people that can't get their $#@! together, and you have newly arrived immigrants (from the good countries) who don't speak the language, are unfamiliar with the customs and traditions of this country, don't have much to begin with, yet within one generation they're well into the middle class. Not all cultures are equal. If you look at Jews, they've been reviled and discriminated against all throughout history, yet they do pretty well no matter where they go.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    As to the @Suzanimal proviso, or the @Occam's Banana fish-water corollary, I'll say this. At extremes, culture may have an important effect on important policies, but those cultural extremes are themselves downstream from policy. In other words, in anything resembling a market society, the culture is going to be fairly functional. Whatever the religion, language, cuisine, or customary headgear, people are going to be inclined to work for a living and otherwise behave in a tolerably civilized fashion. It's Darwinian; people behave that way, because, otherwise, they don't survive (or are at least very marginalized). Whereas, the extremes of depravity that we see, like extremes of economic inefficiency in business, can only exist (for long) by virtue of state subsidies, because they're otherwise self-correcting (self-destroying). A socialist state breeds depravity; a liberal state breeds decency. The cultural problems in this country (e.g. absent parents, glorification of gangsterism, lack of work ethic) are pretty directly attributable to state policies: e.g. the welfare-state and drug prohibition. The US did not become socialistic because it became depraved; it became depraved because it became socialistic.
    I don't disagree. I think that's a fair assessment.


    Now, it may be true that more depravity breeds more socialism in a vicious cycle, but to focus on culture is to miss the bigger picture.
    However, if we're ever going to roll back the state or keep society from going further into the $#@!ter, we have to win the culture war. If we don't, expect to see more of Bernie and AOCs ilk in CONgress. If we're ever going to see more Massies in Congress, we need to sell free markets to these kids. I don't think having more libertarians in Congress would change a whole lot as far as policy goes but I think it would change the public conversation and that's the first step to changing policy. That's why I supported Ron Paul. I never thought he could actually win (I wished but wish in one hand/$#@! in the other and see which one fills up faster) but he got people thinking and talking. His campaign was a cultural phenomenon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

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