View Poll Results: Why Mueller did not exonerate POTUS on Obstruction Of Justice charge?

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  • Anti-Trump Bias

    6 50.00%
  • Wanted AJ/Congress to evaluate evidence & decide

    6 50.00%
  • Ran out of time

    0 0%
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Thread: Why Mueller did not exonerate POTUS on Obstruction Of Justice charge?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quoted part isn't a quote from Barr, it is Barr reporting what RM said.
    Level of emotions by some remind me of Bush-Cheney supporters unnecessarily high dedication to their leaders when their approval in GOP used to be 90% before Iraqi Freedom war.

    This is being discussed here:

    The report Mueller wrote exonerated Trump, however, according to those who have read it.
    Do you understand if this is referring to AG Barr, Deputy AG Rosenstein or someone else?

    That was the question I had.
    In the interest of repetition. If POTUS is saying that his appointed AG (or his lawyers, supporters or he himself) 'totally exonarated' him on charges of obstruction of justice, then there is nothing to argue over here.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Level of emotions by some remind me of Bush-Cheney supporters unnecessarily high dedication to their leaders when their approval in GOP used to be 90% before Iraqi Freedom war.

    This is being discussed here:



    Do you understand if this is referring to AG Barr, Deputy AG Rosenstein or someone else?

    That was the question I had.
    In the interest of repetition. If POTUS is saying that his appointed AG (or his lawyers, supporters or he himself) 'totally exonarated' him on charges of obstruction of justice, then there is nothing to argue over here.
    Dannno told you that Barr exonerated Trump and you tried to use Barr reporting that RM didn't to refute Dannno.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    In the interest of brevity, I just asked names of any readers of report you were referring to in your statement. Reading full subjective opinion of Barr will not help IMO since quoted part clearly contradicts your statement. Many in their subjective (or maybe in objective as well if they have full view of the facts) views could see him 'totally exonerated', only issues was who is making that assessment and how biased/unbiased is that verdict.
    Participation in these discusssions is optional, no need to get all worked up if your interpretation of 'facts' is challenged in the course of a discussion.
    It doesn't contradict it, you just don't understand the english language well enough.

    Go back to my post about Colonel Mustard.

    The details of the report exonerate Colonel Mustard, even though the person who wrote the report did not specifically exonerate them (hint: it is an issue of them not having the authority to do so). I don't understand why you can't just read the link I posted of the letter, which is the subject of the discussion. It's extremely clear, no need to watch CNN for the interpretation.

    This is not my opinion or interpretation, this is just how it is. You are still spreading fake news. Please quit being fake news.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #34
    It's pretty $#@!ing simple. Mueller's report exonerates Trump. Mueller does not personally exonerate Trump in his report.

    Both of those statements are factual, and neither are contradictory. If you don't know why, go back to my example of Colonel Mustard in the Billiard Room with the Candlestick.

    The media is just using people who are too stupid to know the difference between these statements to make the claim that Trump said something incorrect, which, as usual, is fake news.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #35
    LOL No worries, will read the linked PDF bit later.
    Accurate unbiased legalistic determinations and their wording (after reading whole MR) vs your/mine/TV experts subjective assessments can also be different after reading a political AG's letter on things like OoJ.



    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Attorney Jeneral?
    Damn Alex Jones Have fixed it.

  8. #36
    AJ=Alex Jones?
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

    Quote Originally Posted by Contumacious View Post
    In conclusion THE ONLY WAY BIDEN IS GOING TO SEE THE INSIDE OF THE OVAL OFFICE IS VIA THE A WHITEHOUSE PUBLIC TOUR

  9. #37

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    No was a typo, meant AG. Was not Freudian slip, there are no similarities between current AG and AJ.
    There are some similarities between AJ and Congress.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

    Quote Originally Posted by Contumacious View Post
    In conclusion THE ONLY WAY BIDEN IS GOING TO SEE THE INSIDE OF THE OVAL OFFICE IS VIA THE A WHITEHOUSE PUBLIC TOUR

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    His letter said:




    We're splitting hairs now.
    Reminded me of this old video of Ken Starr ( whose report on Clinton lie about Monica romance led to Clinton's impeachment by the GOP led House and who is also being rehabilitated at Foxnews these day like various other neocons):


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3ycYsehbHU



    Un-Related


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE2XHYxkJgw
    CBS: Trump says he didn't know about Stormy Daniels payment



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXQFPY0JMLA


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHp4g44nd8k
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, his letter said RM said it.
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    In the interest of brevity, I just asked names of any readers of report you were referring to in your statement. Reading full subjective opinion of Barr will not help IMO since quoted part clearly contradicts your statement. Many in their subjective (or maybe in objective as well if they have full view of the facts) views could see him 'totally exonerated', only issues was who is making that assessment and how biased/unbiased is that verdict.
    Participation in these discusssions is optional, no need to get all worked up if your interpretation of 'facts' is challenged in the course of a discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The quoted part isn't a quote from Barr, it is Barr reporting what RM said.

    I already pointed that out, are you being dishonest on purpose?
    “The Special Counsel states that, ‘while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.’

    “The Special Counsel states that, ‘...it does not exonerate him.’

    The Special Counsel states

    The Special Counsel states


    Pretty clear Barr was quoting Mueller.

  12. #40
    Dems are raising the 'bias' issue again, this time their top leadership. There had been bias noise before but not at this level.

    Pelosi, Schumer: AG William Barr Is Not a ‘Neutral Observer’ of Mueller Report

    Congressional leaders Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and Chuck Schumer (D-NY) released a statement Sunday slamming Attorney General William Barr for his “public record of bias” against Robert Mueller’s investigation, arguing that Barr is the wrong person to decide if President Trump tried to obstruct justice. The statement comes just hours after Barr released a memo on Mueller’s report, in which he stated that there’s “not sufficient” evidence to charge the president with obstructing investigations into his dealings. “Attorney General Barr’s letter raises as many questions as it answers,” the pair wrote, urging that the full report be made public “without any further delay.” “Given Mr. Barr’s public record of bias against the Special Counsel’s inquiry, he is not a neutral observer and is not in a position to make objective determinations about the report,” Pelosi and Schumer wrote. The pair also tore into Trump for saying the report completely exonerated him, noting that his claim “directly contradicts the words of Mr. Mueller and is not to be taken with any degree of credibility.”

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/pelosi...mueller-report



    'Mexican Judge' Bias Mindset
    Although some from liberal side while back had brought up bias question with jewish appointments at DOJ leadership and POTUS with help of his Jewish son-in-law's bold leadership positioning himself as the 'most pro Isreal President ever' as reknowned foreign policy expert Deniel Pipes also claimed. But Dems top leadership has not raised such bias objection based on ethnic hertiage of AG Barr and Deputy AG Rosenstein, their argument is based on record of Barr's 'public opposition' to this investigation.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKwps5fjjCY


    Expert reverses course, says Trump's ‘most pro-Israel president ever’
    On January 30, in the aftermath of his discussion on the Wall Street Journal column with Ambassador to Israel David Friedman, Pipes wrote that Trump is “the most pro-Israel president ever".
    By Meyer Shimon
    February 3, 2019
    Jerusalem Post





    Quote Originally Posted by ghengis86 View Post


    Pretty clear Barr was quoting Mueller.
    Yep.


    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's pretty $#@!ing simple. Mueller's report exonerates Trump. Mueller does not personally exonerate Trump in his report.
    On review, I was replying without reading all the previous comments in the chain.

    You're right, it's pretty simple.

    Mueller in Mueller Report does not exonerate MAGA.

    MAGA appointed AG Barr (who in 2018 before reading full MR had already said 'there's no obstruction.') says same after reading report.

    "Bill Barr should not have decided that jump ball because ... he already determined that the possession arrow should go in favor of Donald Trump," Rossi said. "In June of 2018, he already said 'there's no obstruction.' So I have to criticize the attorney general — for whom I was very complimentary — that was a bad decision, and it taints this letter."



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Ya, I don't see where Trump said Mueller personally exonerated him anywhere in there.

    The report Mueller wrote exonerated Trump, however, according to those who have read it.

    If you are still confused, let me put this in some language you might understand.

    If the claim is that it was Colonel Mustard in the Billiard Room with the Candlestick, and Mueller wrote a report about it - Mueller's report said that Colonel Mustard was never in the Billiard Room nor did he have a candlestick. However, Mueller never said that it wasn't Colonel Mustard who did "it"... so if in fact it was done in the Billiard Room with a Candlestick, we can deduce it was not Colonel Mustard based on Mueller's report, even if Mueller did not make the specific claim that Colonel Mustard has been exonerated.
    This is the logical fallacy known as Appeal to Ignorance. Just because you can’t prove something didn’t occur. It is a logical fallacy to assume that something did occur.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    This is the logical fallacy known as Appeal to Ignorance. Just because you can’t prove something didn’t occur. It is a logical fallacy to assume that something did occur.
    No it isn't. Like I said, those who read the document said that the evidence in the report indicates that the President is exonerated from obstruction of justice. Mueller didn't personally exonerate him, but the evidence in the report he wrote did.

    Did you read the letter? That is precisely what it says.

    Don't be fake news.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #43

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    No it isn't. Like I said, those who read the document said that the evidence in the report indicates that the President is exonerated from obstruction of justice. Mueller didn't personally exonerate him, but the evidence in the report he wrote did.

    Did you read the letter? That is precisely what it says.

    Don't be fake news.
    Enhanced_deficit and Democrats were making the logical fallacy.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    Enhanced_deficit and Democrats were making the logical fallacy.
    Ohhhh
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    Enhanced_deficit and Democrats were making the logical fallacy.
    AG Barr is a Republican, not a Democrat.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    This is the logical fallacy known as Appeal to Ignorance. Just because you can’t prove something didn’t occur. It is a logical fallacy to assume that something did occur.
    No it isn't. Like I said, those who read the document said that the evidence in the report indicates that the President is exonerated from obstruction of justice. Mueller didn't personally exonerate him, but the evidence in the report he wrote did.

    Did you read the letter? That is precisely what it says.

    Don't be fake news.

    Opinions/interpretations technically can't be 'fakenews' as those are subjective.
    But seems like one issue here is misunderstanding/communication of views here, I know I misread some partial views earlier by skipping some posts hurridly.

    Having read all the views, following is my understanding of situation that I believe no one disagrees with. There are not verdicts being made and it is key summary of events, so any logical fallacy issue should not come into play unless folks start making additional deductions from these events.



    Key Summary:

    1. Mueller in Mueller Report does not exonerate MAGA on obstruction charge.

    2. MAGA appointed AG Barr (who in 2018 even before reading full MR had already said 'there's no obstruction.') alongwith MAGA appointed Deputy AG Rosenstein read the report over a weekend and determined there was not sufficient evidence for OoJ charge to be looked into further.

    3. Dems are alleging AG Barr is not an unbiased party






    If anyone finds any statement in this summary inaccurate, feel free to correct.
    If any one claims there 'was/was not obstruction' based on these events, that's a deduction and can be debated.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Opinions/interpretations technically can't be 'fakenews' as those are subjective.
    But seems like one issue here is misunderstanding/communication of views here, I know I misread some partial views earlier by skipping some posts hurridly.

    Having read all the views, following is my understanding of situation that I believe no one disagrees with. There are not verdicts being made and it is key summary of events, so any logical fallacy issue should not come into play unless folks start making additional deductions from these events.



    Key Summary:

    1. Mueller in Mueller Report does not exonerate MAGA on obstruction charge.

    2. MAGA appointed AG Barr (who in 2018 even before reading full MR had already said 'there's no obstruction.') alongwith MAGA appointed Deputy AG Rosenstein read the report over a weekend and determined there was not sufficient evidence for OoJ charge to be looked into further.

    3. Dems are alleging AG Barr is not an unbiased party






    If anyone finds this summary inaccurate, feel free to correct.

    “1. Mueller in Mueller Report does not exonerate MAGA on obstruction charge.”

    This is the logical fallacy I mentioned above.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    AG Barr is a Republican, not a Democrat.

    The Democrats interpretation of the obstruction claiming it doesn’t exonerate Donald Trump and his associates as well as family. Arguing that it doesn’t exonerate anyone is the appeal to logic fallacy and if you knew what I meant then this is a straw man fallacy.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    “1. Mueller in Mueller Report does not exonerate MAGA on obstruction charge.”

    This is the logical fallacy I mentioned above.
    That statement ( or rather restatement of Mueller Report) was made by AG Barr, that's best information we have since MR has not been made public yet.
    So were you saying that AG Barr used fallacious logic when he wrote this letter or Mueller did ?
    Both Barr and Mueller are Republicans.

    Quote:
    Barr’s letter said this: “The Special Counsel . . . did not draw a conclusion—one way or another—as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction.” The letter went on, “The Special Counsel states that, ‘while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.’


    Using common logic, author of a report is generally considered a bigger authority on the reports findings than a reader of the report but that's a separate topic.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    That statement ( or rather restatement of Mueller Report) was made by AG Barr, that's best information we have since MR has not been made public yet.
    So were you saying that AG Barr used fallacious logic when he wrote this letter or Mueller did ?
    Both Barr and Mueller are Republicans.



    Quote:
    Barr’s letter said this: “The Special Counsel . . . did not draw a conclusion—one way or another—as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction.” The letter went on, “The Special Counsel states that, ‘while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.’
    Barr, Mueller, CNN, and you are making this fallacious argument. It doesn’t matter if it done deliberately or not or by whom because the fallacy is still being used.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    Barr, Mueller, CNN, and you are making this fallacious argument. It doesn’t matter if it done deliberately or not or by whom because the fallacy is still being used.
    Ok, I can't speak for Barr and Mueller, they might soon have opportunity to defend their logic in Congressional hearings.


    But I tried to separate statements of events from any opinios/arguments in above post with final summary, if you can specify which fallacious argument I made, would try to defend it or correct the logic.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Ok, I can't speak for Barr and Mueller, they might soon have opportunity to defend their logic in Congressional hearings.


    But I tried to separate statements of events from any opinios/arguments in above post with final summary, if you can specify which fallacious argument I made, would try to defend it or correct the logic.
    If you are simply stating what they said then you are not using the fallacy. However, if you were to agree with their view then you would be.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Opinions/interpretations technically can't be 'fakenews' as those are subjective.
    But seems like one issue here is misunderstanding/communication of views here, I know I misread some partial views earlier by skipping some posts hurridly.

    Having read all the views, following is my understanding of situation that I believe no one disagrees with. There are not verdicts being made and it is key summary of events, so any logical fallacy issue should not come into play unless folks start making additional deductions from these events.



    Key Summary:

    1. Mueller in Mueller Report does not exonerate MAGA on obstruction charge.

    2. MAGA appointed AG Barr (who in 2018 even before reading full MR had already said 'there's no obstruction.') alongwith MAGA appointed Deputy AG Rosenstein read the report over a weekend and determined there was not sufficient evidence for OoJ charge to be looked into further.

    3. Dems are alleging AG Barr is not an unbiased party






    If anyone finds any statement in this summary inaccurate, feel free to correct.
    If any one claims there 'was/was not obstruction' based on these events, that's a deduction and can be debated.
    The issue was the fake news media saying Trump's statement that he was exonerated by the report was inaccurate because the report specifically said Mueller did not exonerate him. It is true that Mueller did not exonerate him, but he also didn't do the opposite of exonerate, he simply laid out evidence on both sides. The two folks who gave a summary of the report indicated that the evidence in the report exonerated him.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  29. #55
    It's really sad that Democrats are so obsessed with charging the President for obstruction of justice on a case where he has been found innocent.

    When Nixon obstructed Justice, he, or at minimum people in his administration were guilty of the charges.

    Saying Trump obstructed justice is like saying a guy who put out his tobacco cigarette and threw it away while the cops came up from behind him is guilty of obstructing justice or destruction of evidence because the cops thought it was a joint... well it wasn't a joint, if there is no crime, except for the fact that they are harassing you.. how can you obstruct justice?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    The Democrats interpretation of the obstruction claiming it doesn’t exonerate Donald Trump and his associates as well as family. Arguing that it doesn’t exonerate anyone is the appeal to logic fallacy and if you knew what I meant then this is a straw man fallacy.
    But it's not just Democrats. It's Barr, Trump's own AG. And it's not just arguing that it doesn't exonerate Trump, but quoting the report itself, which explicitly refrains from exonerating him. It's not a logical fallacy, just a factual claim about something the Mueller report says in it.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    But it's not just Democrats. It's Barr, Trump's own AG. And it's not just arguing that it doesn't exonerate Trump, but quoting the report itself, which explicitly refrains from exonerating him. It's not a logical fallacy, just a factual claim about something the Mueller report says in it.
    It's NOT Barr.
    That is Fake News.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #58
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It's NOT Barr.
    That is Fake News.
    It's Barr referring to what the Mueller report says.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    It's Barr referring to what the Mueller report says.
    Barr reported what RM said, he didn't concur.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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