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Thread: Natural Whole Food Vitamins: Ascorbic Acid Is Not Vitamin C

  1. #1
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Natural Whole Food Vitamins: Ascorbic Acid Is Not Vitamin C

    This will be a short chapter, but after youíre finished with it, you will know more about vitamins than 95% of clinical nutritionists, doctors, supplement sales force, or bodybuilders. If that sounds arrogant or overstated, it really isnít my fault. Iím just a messenger; a purveyor of information. Either Iím right or the 95% are right; canít be both.

    Without further ado, hereís the kernel: ascorbic acid is not vitamin C. Alpha tocopherol is not vitamin E. Retinoic acid is not vitamin A. And so on through the other vitamins. Vast sums of money have been expended to make these myths part of Conventional Wisdom. If you have several college degrees and all this is news to you, donít feel bad. Unless you think your education ended at Commencement. Which is generally true.


    http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/vitam...not-vitamin-c/



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  3. #2
    If ascorbic acid is not vitamin C how come more people don't have scurvy? Yes, many nutrients work better in conjunction with other nutrients but is that proof that ascorbic acid is NOT vitamin C?

    Ascorbic acid simply cannot confer vitamin activity,
    What is the molecular structure of vitamin C and how does it compare to ascorbic acid?

  4. #3
    Since that is a large article, could you give a quick answer that if ascorbic acid is not vitamin C, then what chemical, chemical compound, or isolated substance is vitamin C? Just the name of that compound should be good enough. I skimmed the article and didn't see that stick out right away.

  5. #4
    There is a middle ground, that is possible, which is that if you already have a nutritious diet and are getting a good portion of the nutrients you need then supplementation would be more effective than if you are taking a pill and eating it with vitamin enriched foods that would normally contain very little if any nutrition.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #5
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If ascorbic acid is not vitamin C how come more people don't have scurvy? Yes, many nutrients work better in conjunction with other nutrients but is that proof that ascorbic acid is NOT vitamin C?



    What is the molecular structure of vitamin C and how does it compare to ascorbic acid?
    its in the article... ascorbic acid is part of the vitamin c..

    People probably get enough vitamins to prevent full blown scurvy... thats what the RDAs seem to be for IMO

    Alot of people probably have sub-clinical scurvy and it just goes undiagnosed. People that bruise easily or have their gums bleed when they brush their teeth for example are 2 indicators of that.
    Last edited by Chester Copperpot; 09-03-2016 at 03:01 PM.

  7. #6
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Yieu View Post
    Since that is a large article, could you give a quick answer that if ascorbic acid is not vitamin C, then what chemical, chemical compound, or isolated substance is vitamin C? Just the name of that compound should be good enough. I skimmed the article and didn't see that stick out right away.
    Its in the middle of the article but to answer your question the vitamin c is a group of substances - ascorbic acid just being one of the parts, but for real vitamin activity there are several other things needed, including the mineral copper, enzymes and co factors.

    heres the representation in the link:

    _____________________A s c o r b i c A c i d______________

    ascorbinogen
    bioflavonoids
    rutin

    tyrosinase

    Factor J
    Factor K
    Factor P

    _____________________A s c o r b i c A c i d______________



    AScorbic acid is the shell or container of the other parts of the vitamin
    Last edited by Chester Copperpot; 09-03-2016 at 03:16 PM.

  8. #7
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    There is a middle ground, that is possible, which is that if you already have a nutritious diet and are getting a good portion of the nutrients you need then supplementation would be more effective than if you are taking a pill and eating it with vitamin enriched foods that would normally contain very little if any nutrition.
    Yeah Im a little confused by your wording but I think youre right.. If somebody already has those other parts of the vitamin in their system already then they can induce the vitamin activity by intaking of one of the parts... I think thats a reasonable expectation yes.

  9. #8
    Thanks, that makes sense. So eating fruit or having a greens powder, or a vitamin made with whole plants in them would likely be more effective.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Chester Copperpot View Post
    Yeah Im a little confused by your wording but I think youre right.. If somebody already has those other parts of the vitamin in their system already then they can induce the vitamin activity by intaking of one of the parts... I think thats a reasonable expectation yes.
    If I had to run an experiment, I would take four groups of individuals and run a gamut of tests for nutrient deficiencies.

    Then I would have them continue their diet, and run the tests again a few months later.

    Group 1 - Eats mostly foods artificially fortified with vitamins (like cereal and packaged foods)

    Group 2 - Eats mostly foods artificially fortified with vitamins, and takes a multi-vitamin daily

    Group 3 - Eats mostly foods that are naturally fortified with vitamins, a lot of whole fruits and vegetables and pastured eggs, meat and dairy.

    Group 4 - Eats mostly foods that are naturally fortified with vitamins (listed above) along with a daily multi-vitamin

    I would expect Group 4 to do the best - Group 3 to the second best - Group 2 to the third best and Group 1 to do the worst.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #10
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Yieu View Post
    Thanks, that makes sense. So eating fruit or having a greens powder, or a vitamin made with whole plants in them would likely be more effective.
    Exactly.. and it wont sound like a lot of potency... For example in the matter of scurvy, Szent-Gyorgi (Discoverer of Vitamin C) said he couldnt cure scurvy by using pure ascorbic acid.. but all it takes is 20mg of Vitamin C found in a white potato and its easily cured. Meanwhile all these pills with 500mg, 1000mg, etc etc.. sound great but I still think the natural food is the better way to go.. Yeah fruit, greens powder, sure all that stuff sounds much better IMO

  13. #11
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    If I had to run an experiment, I would take four groups of individuals and run a gamut of tests for nutrient deficiencies.

    Then I would have them continue their diet, and run the tests again a few months later.

    Group 1 - Eats mostly foods artificially fortified with vitamins (like cereal and packaged foods)

    Group 2 - Eats mostly foods artificially fortified with vitamins, and takes a multi-vitamin daily

    Group 3 - Eats mostly foods that are naturally fortified with vitamins, a lot of whole fruits and vegetables and pastured eggs, meat and dairy.

    Group 4 - Eats mostly foods that are naturally fortified with vitamins (listed above) along with a daily multi-vitamin

    I would expect Group 4 to do the best - Group 3 to the second best - Group 2 to the third best and Group 1 to do the worst.
    Yep, that would be an interesting experiment and I would put money on the findings being exactly as you say. Too bad nobody does vitamin research like this anymore though ya know?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Yieu View Post
    Since that is a large article, could you give a quick answer that if ascorbic acid is not vitamin C, then what chemical, chemical compound, or isolated substance is vitamin C? Just the name of that compound should be good enough. I skimmed the article and didn't see that stick out right away.
    It says that for supplements you should get 'whole food' versions, which are more expensive. Just to test, I look on Amazon and find Whole Food Multivitamin which has Vit C 500mg (ascorbic acid) and Vit B12 (cyanocobalamin), which are NOT really Vit C and B12 (according to the article?)

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by unconsious767 View Post
    It says that for supplements you should get 'whole food' versions, which are more expensive. Just to test, I look on Amazon and find Whole Food Multivitamin which has Vit C 500mg (ascorbic acid) and Vit B12 (cyanocobalamin), which are NOT really Vit C and B12 (according to the article?)
    That's actually a bit confusing - there are a ton of ingredients in there which contain Vitamin C, so that could be the amount of ascorbic acid that can be measured in a serving of those items, or, they could be giving you those items along with a serving of ascorbic acid, but then where do they tell you how much Vitamin C comes from the items that are in there? That is why I am thinking it is the first option, but I could be wrong. However it seems like taking the supplements in that form could be a lot more effective, if that is what they are doing.
    Last edited by dannno; 09-03-2016 at 05:57 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #14
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    That's actually a bit confusing - there are a ton of ingredients in there which contain Vitamin C, so that could be the amount of ascorbic acid that can be measured in a serving of those items, or, they could be giving you those items along with a serving of ascorbic acid, but then where do they tell you how much Vitamin C comes from the items that are in there? That is why I am thinking it is the first option, but I could be wrong. However it seems like taking the supplements in that form could be a lot more effective, if that is what they are doing.
    yeah that really is confusing.. It would be my guess that theyre adding in Ascorbic acid in additionally to whats found in the food. 500mg is a high potency... youd probably have to eat more food than could fit in the bottle.

    Bragg does a similar thing with their nutritional yeast... they supplement it with certain B vitamins.

  17. #15
    Cutting Through The Vitamin C(onfusion)

    Faster than a speeding bullet. More powerful than a locomotive. Safer than water. Able to stop a fatal disease in its tracks...It's Super-C! So why all the controversy and confusion on how to use this simple tool?

    Vitamin C was discovered by Albert Szent -Gyorgyi, heralded by Linus Pauling, denounced by the AMA, branded a dangerous placebo by Dr. Paul Offit and questioned on form by natural health advocates. Its therapeutic value has been evidenced by dozens of physicians including Drs. Rath, Klenner and Klinghardt and by contemporary researchers Drs. Hickey, Roberts, Saul, Wright and Levy, to name just a few. Much of the misinformation on Vitamin C comes straight out of supplement marketing. A quick read of blog articles (like this one) and the public comments that follow will reveal a high level of cluelessness.

    Over the years I have read:

    Vitamin C is acidic. That is true of the ascorbic acid form which is so sour one would be hard put to take a few hundred milligrams by mouth.
    Only complexed Vitamin C should be taken. That is generally true. Fresh whole fruits, berries, herbs and vegetable come packed in an array of phyto-antioxidants as do their derivatives in natural supplements. The exception would be when higher therapeutic doses are desired to halt oxidative stress, infections and to mobilize metals during detoxification.
    Vitamin C should not be taken when kidney function is in question. That is true. Kidney stones however are not a result of Vitamin C use.
    Vitamin C will not cure the common cold. That is true just because the common cold is not actually a disease, but a cell cleansing event aided by resident symbiotic virus. A thorough detoxification of metals will prevent the discomfort of colds when "the system is down for maintenance."
    Lipospheric Vitamin C is the preferred form. Lipo-C maintains serum levels longer than water soluble forms and is thought to be well absorbed due to its fat soluble characteristics. However Lipo-C does not seem to deliver a mega ascorbate spike that prompts H2O2 release or an "oxidative burst." Lipo-C is the goto source for those with poor bowel tolerance to ascorbate and could be used in conjunction. Lipo-C can be easily made in a blender or ultrasonic device using either ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate and preferably non-soy lecithin. Recipes are on the internet.

    Vitamin C is the common name for ascorbic acid. Vitamin C/ascorbic acid becomes acid neutralized to yield the non-sour ascorbate form using sodium bicarbonate in water to yield sodium ascorbate and CO2 gas. As it is swallowed, ascorbate rapidly enters the bloodstream and cell membranes aided by transport molecules. Since glucose and ascorbate are similar molecules they share transport mechanisms and may compete for entry through cell membranes.

    Wherever an oxidized molecule is found, ascorbate donates an electron.

    Free radicals and acids, constantly being generated via metabolic oxidation, toxins, radiations, emotional stress and inflammatory response, are suppressed by Vitamin C. Vitamin C is anti-inflammatory, antihistamine and antimetastatic. Many common foods exhibit antioxidant activity and are rated as to strength on the ORAC scale, oxygen radical absorbance capacity.

    Vitamin C also resupplies fat and membrane protective Vitamin E with electrons and reduces iron so they can both deliver oxygen more efficiently.

    Ascorbate synergizes with R Alpha Lipoic Acid and Vitamin K2 according to Drs. Hickey & Roberts. C also reinforces and protects the plant sourced rainbow of antioxidant pigments.

    Along with Vitamin E and the amino acids lysine and proline found in collagen-rich bone/cartilage soups, Vitamin C helps construct all connective tissues that make up blood vessel, bone, ligament, cartilage and skin!

    Toxic metals are relieved of their positive charge by C's electron inputs. Vitamin C neutralizes charge killing metals that are then mobilized to float free in blood and lymph and become chelated in the intestines, passed through the kidneys or eliminated in sweat.

    At peak dosage, Vitamin C generates H2O2 in an oxidative burst which helps destroy damaged cells, organic toxins, cancers and pathogenic bacteria. Purely oxidative therapies accomplish this task and stimulate a rebound in cellular production of glutathione via redox signalling. Oxidative therapies using hydrogen peroxide can be used in rotation for a 1-2 punch. We might have better clinical data were these therapies not officially forbidden.

    Vitamin C's electrons supercharge immune cells like the macrophages that reside in lung, liver, adipose and connective tissues.

    The best method for oral use is to mix Vitamin C crystals (ascorbic acid) with half as much Arm & Hammer Baking Soda (contains no aluminum) and let fizz in half a glass of water. A level teaspoon supplies 2.25 grams of Vitamin C or 2250 milligrams. A rounded teaspoon is about 5 grams and a heaping teaspoon 7 to 8 grams. Exact measurement is unnecessary since personal doses must be individually titrated and maintained just below bowel tolerance. Bowel tolerance is the point at which diarrhea ensues, so by eye, use just a little less. Oral megadosing is best done before meals and at bedtime. Four to five doses a day can total 20, 3O or 40 grams. Vitamin C crystals can be purchased in 3lb jars and larger bulk quantities.

    In acute illness, huge doses of 100 grams or more of sodium ascorbate go directly into the blood stream via IV. Though scores of lives have been saved with IV Vitamin C, hospitals cruelly refuse to administer it. I personally keep the phone numbers of local clinics who can perform this intervention should emergency arise.

    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/cut...amin-confusion
    ďThe spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.Ē ~ Rudolf Steiner

  18. #16
    What are these?

    Factor J
    Factor K
    Factor P
    The only place I can find them mentioned is this article or others citing the article. That raises questions.



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  20. #17
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What are these?



    The only place I can find them mentioned is this article or others citing the article. That raises questions.
    Theyre replacement names for obsolete terms for various substances... Think of it as Vitamin J, Vitamin P in the past but over time their vitamin status was removed the way Pluto was removed as a planet... Instead they are considered a vitamin-like substance,, Same way at one time there was a Vitamin B-13 (Orotic Acid)... Now you dont see that because they dont consider Vitamin B-13 a vitamin anymore so you wont find it in a B complex however it will still be in real foods like whole grains and obviously performs some function in health along with the others like B-15, B-21, etc.
    Last edited by Chester Copperpot; 09-03-2016 at 11:39 PM.

  21. #18
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Tomorrow Im going to put up a thread about isomers and its going to blow everyones' mind

  22. #19
    The whole article reads like a vitamin sales rep ad. The only "scientific" support they offer to their claim are a couple of articles from the 1840's on scurvy. "Our vitamins are better than everybody else's which are worthless". Marketing hype. I can't find any scientific articles which support their claims.

    And yes, they are selling supplements. http://www.immunitionltd.com/products.html

    Expensive ones.

    Order all 7 Supplements @ $730.00 - 60 day supply for 1 person

  23. #20
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The whole article reads like a vitamin sales rep ad. The only "scientific" support they offer to their claim are a couple of articles from the 1840's on scurvy. "Our vitamins are better than everybody else's which are worthless". Marketing hype. I can't find any scientific articles which support their claims.

    And yes, they are selling supplements. http://www.immunitionltd.com/products.html

    Expensive ones.
    im not familiar with that supplement site... anybody discussing real vitamins shouldnt be advertising supplements unless theyre some sort of whole food supplement..maybe its an adsense kind of thing.. you can read Albert Szent-Gyorgyis Nobel speech where he backs up these claims.. Couldnt cure scurvy with ascorbic acid but could with peppers.

    Theres alot of information from Royal Lee as well... Ive downloaded most but really havent read too much of it.. its a lot to go through and Ive had other things going on but im on board with some of the information ive read so far... also other information supports the same premise on natural vitamins.. theres a couple more threads im going to post.. i didnt want to post a bunch of $#@! and annoy everybody.... i really wanted farreri to read this thread but evidently hes afraid of taking in new information... so what can i tell you.

  24. #21
    im not familiar with that supplement site... anybody discussing real vitamins shouldnt be advertising supplements unless theyre some sort of whole food supplement..maybe its an adsense kind of thing..
    It is the website you posted the article from. Link at the top of the page. Not an advertising link. Click on "supplements".

    Sure looks like it is just marketing to me.

    Click on "60 day program" and they will tell you all the over-priced vitamins you have to take a day (and link to order it from).

    Everything on the website includes links to order their 60 day program.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 09-04-2016 at 01:22 PM.

  25. #22
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    It is the website you posted the article from. Link at the top of the page. Not an advertising link. Click on "supplements".

    Sure looks like it is just marketing to me.

    Click on "60 day program" and they will tell you all the over-priced vitamins you have to take a day (and link to order it from).

    Everything on the website includes links to order their 60 day program.
    i saw the link on the bottom yeah they might be good enzymes and $#@! but $365 for a 30 day supply no thanks. lol... Just better off eating real grassfed or wild caught food and fresh fruits and vegetables.

  26. #23
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    bump for farreri because he said he wanted to learn



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