Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 163

Thread: John Calvin on obedience

  1. #1

    John Calvin on obedience

    If, however, we desire to be approved by God, and accounted righteous before him, we must not only regulate our hands, and eyes, and feet, in obedience to his Law; but integrity of heart is above all things required, and holds the chief place in the true definition of righteousness. Let us, however, know that they are called just and upright, not who are in every respect perfect, and in whom there is no defect; but who cultivate righteousness purely, and from their heart. Because we are assured that God does not act towards his own people with the rigour of justice, as requiring of them a life according to the perfect rule of the Law; for, if only no hypocrisy reigns within them, but the pure love of rectitude flourishes, and fills their hearts, he pronounces them, according to his clemency, to be righteous.

    John Calvin


    Hmmmm....heart obedience. Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah! I said it! The irony is that I was condemned by RPF hyper-Calvinists for it.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-23-2012 at 08:18 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    This is where you get the argument about how Reformed is not Calvinism, right now, pertaining to this argument, until a later argument calls for it to be Calvinism.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    This is where you get the argument about how Reformed is not Calvinism, right now, pertaining to this argument, until a later argument calls for it to be Calvinism.
    LOL. Right. Calvinists are consistent in their inconsistency. I suspect I'll get the "Calvin was talking about sanctification, not justification" argument thrown in here. Of course that will requiring ignoring the part where Calvin says "if only no hypocrisy reigns within them, but the pure love of rectitude flourishes, and fills their hearts, he pronounces them, according to his clemency, to be righteous."
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #4
    Calvin On The "Pernicious Hypocrisy" Of Justification By Faith And Works
    By Robert Reymond
    http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=223

    That some serious slippage has occurred away from the classical Protestant doctrine of justification sola fide has been well documented in many religious publications. Certain teachers - Douglas Wilson, Steve Schlissel, and Steve Wilkins, 1 to name only three - have risen within confessing Reformed communions who, in concert with the errant teaching of Norman Shepherd, 2 do not endorse the doctrine of justification as enunciated by their historic church confessions and, instead of doing the honorable thing and leaving their communions, 3 are corrupting the one true law-free Gospel 4 and causing division within their communions with their teaching that the Christianís justification is not by faith alone in the all-sufficient work of Jesus Christ but is rather the eschatological end result of the believerís faithfulness to Christ, which faithfulness includes his imperfect works of obedience.

    These teachers have rejected the clear Pauline teaching that justification is an act of Godís free grace alone by which the moment a penitent sinner places his faith in Christ God forgives him of all of his sins forever and imputes to him and hence also to his weak and imperfect žgood worksÓ 5 the perfection of the obedience of his Son Jesus Christ (see Acts 13:38-39; Galatians 2:16; Romans 1:16-17; 3:21-22, 28; 4:4-15; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 2:8-10), thereby constituting and declaring him righteous in his sight. These teachers, either minimizing or denying altogether the imputation of Christís active obedience to the believer, teach that justification is not a purely forensic declaration but a transforming activity in which the believerís obedience also plays a significant role in his justification. This corrupted doctrine of justification includes within it the lie of Satan that Christís righteousness is not enough in itself to justify and that obedience on the part of the believer is also necessary for his full and final justification before God. It ignores Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 73, which states:

    Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God, not because of those other graces which do always accompany it, or of good works that are the fruits of it, nor as if the grace of faith, or any act thereof, were imputed to him for justification, but only as it is an instrument by which he receives and applies Christ and his righteousness.

    More tragically, it ignores the Apostle Paulís inspired warning that those who to any degree intermingle with their faith in Christ and his obedience their own obedience as the ground of their final justification before God

    Ô stand under apostolic condemnation (Galatians 1:8-9);

    Ô have made Christís cross-work of no value to them (Galatians 5:2);

    Ô have alienated themselves from Christ (Galatians 5:4a);

    Ô have set aside (Galatians 2:21) and have fallen away from grace (in the sense that they have placed themselves once again under the Law as the way of salvation [Galatians 3:10; 5:4b]); and

    Ô have abolished the offense of the cross (Galatians 5:11) because they are trusting in a ždifferent gospel [from Paulís] that is no gospel at allÓ (Galatians 1:6-7); indeed, their false žgospelÓ requires them to žcontinue to do everything written in the Book of the LawÓ (Galatians 3:10) perfectly as the ground of their justification before God.

    While multitudes of voices and myriads of letters and essays have attempted to call these erring teachers back to the žold way,Ó so far no one has been able to convince them that their position is flawed and dangerous to their own spiritual health and well-being and the spiritual health and well-being of those who follow them. But I have thought for some time now that perhaps a žpen from the pastÓ - the pen of the one who knew better than any man of his time the errors of the Roman Catholic view of justification, which view these contemporary teachers are now in essence inculcating and propagating - might induce them to rethink their position and repent of it.

    In the sixteenth century John Calvin termed the doctrine of justification by faith alone in Jesus Christ žthe main hinge on which religion turnsÓ (Institutes, 3.11.1), žthe sum of all pietyÓ (Institutes, 3.15.7), and žthe first and keenest subject of controversyÓ between Rome and the Reformation (žReply to SadoletoÓ). He treats justification by faith in his Institutes, Book 3, Chapters 11-19. Here Calvin first defines what he means by justification:

    ...he is justified who is reckoned in the condition not of a sinner, but of a righteous man; and for that reason, he stands firm before Godís judgment seat while all sinners fall. If an innocent accused person be summoned before the judgment seat of a fair judge, where he will be judged according to his innocence, he is said to be žjustifiedÓ before the judge. Thus, justified before God is the man who, freed from the company of sinners, has God to witness and affirm his righteousness [Institutes, 3.11.2];

    ...justified by faith is he who, excluded from the righteousness of works, grasps the righteousness of Christ through faith, and clothed in it, appears in Godís sight not as a sinner but as a righteous man [Institutes, 3.11.2].

    He then declares that the ground of our justification is Christís righteousness alone:

    Therefore, we explain justification simply as the acceptance with which God receives us into his favor as righteous men. And we say that it consists in the remission of sins and the imputation of Christís righteousness [Institutes, 3.11.2];

    ...since God justifies us by the intercession of Christ, he absolves us not by the confirmation of our own innocence but by the imputation of righteousness, so that we who are not righteous in ourselves may be reckoned as such in Christ [Institutes, 3.11.3].

    ...the best passage of all on this matter [2 Corinthians 5:18-21] is the one in which [Paul] teaches that the sum of the Gospel embassy is to reconcile us to God, since God is willing to receive us into grace through Christ, not counting our sins against us. Let my readers carefully ponder the whole passage. For a little later Paul adds by way of explanation: žChrist, who was without sin, was made sin for us,Ó to designate the means of reconciliation. Doubtless he means by the word žreconciledÓ nothing but žjustified.Ó And surely, what he teaches elsewhere - that žwe are made righteous by Christís obedienceÓ - could not stand unless we are reckoned righteous before God in Christ and apart from ourselves [Institutes, 3.11.4, emphasis supplied].

    Calvin then addresses the error of virtually all of professing Christendom, namely, the žpernicious hypocrisyÓ that we obtain righteousness before God by faith in Christ plus our own works of righteousness:

    ...a great part of mankind imagine that righteousness is composed of faith and works [but according to Philippians 3:8-9] a man who wishes to obtain Christís righteousness must abandon his own righteousness.... From this it follows that so long as any particle of works-righteousness remains some occasion for boasting remains with us [Institutes, 3.11.13].

    ...according to [the Sophists, that is, the medieval Schoolmen of the Sorbonne, the theological faculty of the University of Paris], man is justified by both faith and works provided they are not his own works but the gifts of Christ and the fruit of regeneration. [But] all works are excluded, whatever title may grace them... [Institutes, 3.11.14].

    ...Scripture, when it speaks of faith-righteousness, leads us...to turn aside from the contemplation of our own works and look solely upon Godís mercy and Christís perfection [Institutes, 3.11.16].

    [The Sophists] cavil against our doctrine when we say that man is justified by faith alone. They dare not deny that man is justified by faith because it recurs so often in Scripture. But since the word žaloneÓ is nowhere expressed, they do not allow this addition to be made. Is it so? But what will they reply to these words of Paul where he contends that righteousness cannot be of faith unless it be free? How will a free gift agree with works? With what chicaneries will they elude what he says in another passage, that Godís righteousness is revealed in the Gospel? If righteousness is revealed in the Gospel, surely no mutilated or half-righteousness but a full and perfect righteousness is contained there. The law therefore has no place in it. Not only by a false but an obviously ridiculous shift they insist upon excluding this adjective. Does not he who takes everything from works firmly enough ascribe everything to faith alone? What, I pray, do these expressions mean: žHis righteousness has been manifested apart from the lawÓ; and, žMan is freely justifiedÓ; and, žApart from the works of the law?Ó [Institutes, 3.11.19]

    As we were made sinners by one manís disobedience, so we have been justified by one manís obedience. To declare that by him alone we are accounted righteous, what else is this but to lodge our righteousness in Christís obedience, because the obedience of Christ is reckoned to us as if it were our own [Institutes, 3.11.23].

    These contemporary teachers seem to have forgotten the nature of the Judge and the nature of the Final Judgment to which Calvin then quite properly calls our attention in Institutes 3.12 - one of the most powerful and awesome chapters in the entire Institutes. We must never forget, Calvin writes, that the doctrine of justification is

    ...concerned with the justice not of a human court but of a heavenly tribunal, lest we measure by our own small measure the integrity of works needed to satisfy the divine judgment.... [T]here are none who more confidently, and as people say, boisterously chatter over the righteousness of works than they who are monstrously plagued with manifest diseases, or creak with defects beneath the skin.... [Godís justice is] so perfect that nothing can be admitted except what is in every part whole and complete and undefiled by any corruption. Such was never found in any man and never will be. In the shady cloisters of the schools anyone can easily and readily prattle about the value of works in justifying men. But when we come before the presence of God we must put away such amusements! For there we deal with a serious matter, and do not engage in frivolous word battles. To this question, I insist, we must apply our minds if we would profitably inquire concerning true righteousness: How shall we reply to the Heavenly Judge when he calls us to account? Let us envisage for ourselves that Judge, not as our minds naturally imagine him, but as he is depicted for us in Scripture: by whose brightness the stars are darkened; by whose strength the mountains are melted; by whose wrath the Earth is shaken; whose wisdom catches the wise in their craftiness; beside whose purity all things are defiled; whose righteousness not even the [holy] angels can bear; who makes not the guilty man innocent; whose vengeance when once kindled penetrates to the depths of Hell. Let us behold him, I say, sitting in judgment to examine the deeds of men: Who will stand confident before his throne? žWho...can dwell with the devouring fire?Ó...ÓWho...can dwell with everlasting burnings? He who walks righteously and speaks the truth.Ó But let such a one, whoever he is, come forward. Nay, that response causes no one to come forward. For, on the contrary, a terrible voice resounds: žIf thou, O Lord, shouldst mark iniquities, Lord, who shall stand?Ó [Institutes, 3.12.1].

    And our own consciences, Calvin observes, will someday bear witness to the truth of the exceeding sinfulness of our works and our inability to contribute to our justification before God by anything we do:

    ...if the stars, which seem so very bright at night, lose their brilliance in the light of the Sun, what do we think will happen even to the rarest innocence of man when it is compared with Godís purity? For it will be a very severe test, which will penetrate to the most hidden thoughts of the heart.... This will compel the lurking and lagging conscience to utter all things that have now even been forgotten.... Outward parade of good works...will be of no benefit there; purity of will alone will be demanded of us. And therefore hypocrisy shall fall down confounded, even as it now vaunts itself with drunken boldness.... They who do not direct their attention to such a spectacle can, indeed, for the moment pleasantly and peacefully construct a righteousness for themselves, but one that will soon in Godís judgment be shaken from them, just as great riches heaped up in a dream vanish upon awakening. But they who seriously, and as in Godís sight, will seek after the true rule of righteousness, will certainly find that all human works, if judged according to their own worth, are nothing but filth and defilement. And what is commonly reckoned righteousness is before God sheer iniquity; what is adjudged uprightness, pollution; what is accounted glory, ignominy [Institutes, 3.12.4, emphasis supplied].

    Let us not be ashamed to descend from this contemplation of divine perfection to look upon ourselves, without flattery and without being affected by blind self-love. For...while man flatters himself on account of the outward mask of righteousness that he wears, the Lord meanwhile weighs in his scales the secret impurity of the heart. Since, therefore, a man is far from being benefited by such flatteries, let us not, to our ruin, willingly delude ourselves. In order that we may rightly examine ourselves, our consciences must necessarily be called before Godís judgment seat. For there is need to strip entirely bare in its light the secret places of our depravity, which otherwise are too deeply hidden. Then only will we clearly see the value of these words: žMan is far from being justified before God, man who is rottenness and a worm,Ó žabominable and empty, who drinks iniquity like water.Ó...[T]he rigor of this examination ought to proceed to the extent of casting us down into complete consternation, and in this way preparing us to receive Christís grace [Institutes, 3.12.5].

    What we need to exhibit before Godís judgment seat, Calvin avers, is true humility, not the insistence of false teachers that in addition to Christís perfect obedience our imperfect works are necessary for our final justification before God:

    ...what way do we have to humble ourselves except that, wholly poor and destitute, we yield to Godís mercy. For if we think that we have anything left to ourselves, I do not call it humility. And those who have hitherto joined these two things together - namely, that we must think humbly concerning ourselves before God and must reckon our righteousness to be of some value -have taught a pernicious hypocrisy.... If you would, according to Godís judgment, be exalted with the humble, your heart ought to be wounded with...contrition. If that does not happen, you will be humbled by Godís powerful hand to your shame and disgrace [Institutes, 3.12.6, emphasis supplied].

    The burning question in the sixteenth century for the Reformers was žHow can I find a gracious God?,Ó or as Job asks: ž...how can a mortal be righteous before GodÓ (Job 9:2; see also Job 25:4). The Church of the Medieval Age had taught for centuries that right standing before God was achieved through the Spiritís inward work of grace in the human heart. More specifically, it taught that men achieve Heaven through the sacrament of baptism that removes original sin and regenerates, then through inner renewal by works of penance that address post-baptismal sins, and then by the grace of sanctification that is never complete in this life, which necessitates that Christians go to purgatory after death to make expiation for their sins. That Church, including the deliverances of Vatican I and II, is still with us today, with no change in its false soteriology 6 from that time to our own, declaring again as recently as its 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church that žjustification is...the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.Ó And now an essentially similar soteriology has begun to make its appearance within conservative Protestantism.

    The proponents of this žneonomismÓ within Protestantism should take seriously what Calvin (as did all the sixteenth-century magisterial Reformers) came to understand from his careful study of Scripture, namely, that

    Ô the only man with whom the infinitely holy God can have direct fellowship is the perfect God-man, the only mediator žbetween God and man, the man Christ JesusÓ (1 Timothy 2:5), and that it is only as sinful people place their trust in Christís saving work and are thereby regarded by God as žin ChristÓ that the triune God can have any fellowship with them;

    Ô the only way to protect the solus Christus (žChrist aloneÓ) of salvation is to insist upon the sola fide (žfaith aloneÓ) of justification, and the only way to protect the sola fide of justification is to insist upon the solus Christus of salvation;

    Ô saving faith is to be directed to the doing and dying of Christ alone and never and in no sense to the so-called good works or inner experience of the believer;

    Ô the Christianís righteousness before God today is in Heaven at the right hand of God in Jesus Christ, and not on Earth within the believer;

    Ô the ground of our justification is the vicarious work of Christ for us, not the gracious work of the Spirit in us;

    Ô the faith-righteousness of justification is not personal but vicarious, not infused but imputed, not experiential but forensic, not psychological but legal, not our own but a righteousness alien to us, and not earned but graciously given through faith in Christ, which faith is itself a gift of grace;

    Ô all which means that justification by faith is to be set off over against justification by any and all of our works, for justification is grounded in Christís alien preceptive and penal obedience in our stead, and we receive by faith alone his perfect obedience.

    My intention in this essay has been to let Calvin speak to the contemporary Reformed community as if he were still alive. I trust that I have done that. I trust also that most, if not all, of my readers already believe that žjustification is an act of Godís free grace, wherein he pardons all our sins and accepts us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us, and received by faith aloneÓ (Westminster Shorter Catechism, Question 33), but I would urge all my readers - including Norman Shepherd, Steve Schlissel, Steve Wilkins, Douglas Wilson, N. T. Wright, et al. - to re-examine themselves with respect to whether they are trusting solely in the preceptive and penal obedience of the only righteous One, even Jesus Christ, for their forgiveness and needed righteousness before God. For make no mistake about it: The Day will come, as Calvin reminded us, when all of us will stand naked before God, and in that Great Day of his Assize in whom or in what we trusted for our salvation will be all-important. Unable to žanswer him once in a thousand timesÓ all of us in that Day will be stripped of all the things in which we may have placed our confidence in this world. We will stand before the Throne of God in that Day in utter poverty in ourselves - without title, without money, without property, without reputation, without personal prestige, without meritorious works of our own. And unless we have been forgiven of our sins by faith alone in Christ and have been enrobed solely in his imputed righteousness, God will consign us to eternal perdition for our sins. In other words, unless we have completely repudiated all of our own efforts at salvation and have totally trusted the Saviorís righteous life and sacrificial death alone for our salvation, we will be condemned. For by no works of righteousness that we will ever do will we be justified before God (see Titus 3:5). Our so-called works of righteousness simply will not cut it! Christís perfect obedience alone is our only hope for Heaven. It alone is enough. We must trust him if we would be justified, for it is by faith alone in Christís obedient doing and dying that sinners are justified freely before the high tribunal of Heaven. Every other way of salvation, however well-intended, will fail, and those who trust in any other way will be cast into Hell forever.

  6. #5
    Itís impossible to disobey if youíre predetermined to act a certain way.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    Itís impossible to disobey if youíre predetermined to act a certain way.
    Unless it's predetermined that you disobey.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    If, however, we desire to be approved by God, and accounted righteous before him, we must not only regulate our hands, and eyes, and feet, in obedience to his Law; but integrity of heart is above all things required, and holds the chief place in the true definition of righteousness. Let us, however, know that they are called just and upright, not who are in every respect perfect, and in whom there is no defect; but who cultivate righteousness purely, and from their heart. Because we are assured that God does not act towards his own people with the rigour of justice, as requiring of them a life according to the perfect rule of the Law; for, if only no hypocrisy reigns within them, but the pure love of rectitude flourishes, and fills their hearts, he pronounces them, according to his clemency, to be righteous.

    John Calvin


    Hmmmm....heart obedience. Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah! I said it! The irony is that I was condemned by RPF hyper-Calvinists for it.
    Could you cite where this is from?

    Never mind. I found it. It's in his comments on Genesis 6:9 from his commentary on Genesis.

    I notice a couple things to keep in mind about what Calvin is saying here:

    1) He is commenting on Noah being called just and perfect in the Bible. He isn't necessarily talking about prerequisites for being reckoned righteous in God's final day of judgment. He may mean that as well. But it doesn't seem necessary to me.
    2) These remarks on v. 9 are preceded by Calvin's remarks on v. 8, which says "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." Here is what Calvin says about that:
    This is a Hebrew phrase, which signifies that God was propitious to him, and favored him. For so the Hebrews are accustomed to speak: -- 'If I have found grace in thy sight,' instead of, 'If I am acceptable to thee,' or, 'If thou wilt grant me thy benevolence or favor.' Which phrase requires to be noticed, because certain unlearned men infer with futile subtlety, that if men find grace in God's sight, it is because they seek it by their own industry and merits. I acknowledge, indeed, that here Noah is declared to have been acceptable to God, because, by living uprightly and homily, he kept himself pure from the common pollutions of the world; whence, however, did he attain this integrity, but from the preventing grace of God? The commencement, therefore, of this favor was gratuitous mercy. Afterwards, the Lord, having once embraced him, retained him under his own hand, lest he should perish with the rest of the world.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/comm...01/htm/xii.htm
    Last edited by erowe1; 10-23-2012 at 12:27 PM.

  9. #8
    Jmdrake,

    According to Paul, why did God give us His law?



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Could you cite where this is from?

    Never mind. I found it. It's in his comments on Genesis 6:9 from his commentary on Genesis.

    I notice a couple things to keep in mind about what Calvin is saying here:

    1) He is commenting on Noah being called just and perfect in the Bible. He isn't necessarily talking about prerequisites for being reckoned righteous in God's final day of judgment. He may mean that as well. But it doesn't seem necessary to me.
    2) These remarks on v. 9 are preceded by Calvin's remarks on v. 8, which says "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." Here is what Calvin says about that:

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/comm...01/htm/xii.htm
    That's nice. You're still stuck with:

    if only no hypocrisy reigns within them, but the pure love of rectitude flourishes, and fills their hearts, he pronounces them, according to his clemency, to be righteous.

    Calvin wasn't talking about Noah building a boat there. He was drawing a larger lesson. I know it's a lesson that you might find distasteful so you may want to deflect what's actually being said.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Calvin On The "Pernicious Hypocrisy" Of Justification By Faith And Works
    By Robert Reymond
    http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=223
    LOL. When the Bible fails to support your view you rely on Spurgeon. When Spurgeon fails to support your view you rely on Calvin. When Calvin fails to support your view you rely on someone spoon feeding you Calvin 2nd hand (which is 3rd hand Bible). You make me LOL.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Jmdrake,

    According to Paul, why did God give us His law?

    (hint: its Romans chapter 5)

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Jmdrake,

    According to Paul, why did God give us His law?
    Sola_Fide: Do you realize that according to Paul their are two laws? One is the written law which leads to death. The other is the law of liberty inscribed in the heart. Your error is that in trying to reject one you have rejected both.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    That's nice. You're still stuck with:

    if only no hypocrisy reigns within them, but the pure love of rectitude flourishes, and fills their hearts, he pronounces them, according to his clemency, to be righteous.

    Calvin wasn't talking about Noah building a boat there. He was drawing a larger lesson. I know it's a lesson that you might find distasteful so you may want to deflect what's actually being said.
    Not really. Calvin was an important theologian, and I'd like to know more about what he said. I don't feel any obligation to agree with him about anything, and when I do disagree with him I don't see anything distasteful about it. But I want to make sure I'm not taking something out of context.

    At any rate, whether Calvin intends for his remarks about v. 9 to be taken as a general principle about the doctrine of justification (and I don't say he doesn't, only that he may or may not), it still remains the case that, based on what he had just said about v. 8, he clearly sees the righteousness he described in the quote you gave as monergistic, not synergistic.
    Last edited by erowe1; 10-23-2012 at 01:47 PM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Sola_Fide: Do you realize that according to Paul their are two laws? One is the written law which leads to death. The other is the law of liberty inscribed in the heart. Your error is that in trying to reject one you have rejected both.
    In Romans chapter 5, why does Paul say the law was given?

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    (hint: its Romans chapter 5)
    Hint if you want to know about the law you have wrongly rejected, it is in Romans 8 as well as James 1 and 2.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    In Romans chapter 5, why does Paul say the law was given?
    What are the two laws Paul is talking about in Romans chapter 8? Why does he distinguish them?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Not really. Calvin was an important theologian, and I'd like to know more about what he said. I don't feel any obligation to agree with him about anything, and when I do disagree with him I don't see anything distasteful about it. But I want to make sure I'm not taking something out of context.

    At any rate, whether Calvin intends for his remarks about v. 9 to be taken as a general principle about the doctrine of justification (and I don't say he doesn't, only that he may or may not), it still remains the case that, based on what he had just said about v. 8, he clearly sees the righteousness he described in the quote you gave as monergistic, not synergistic.
    What you are missing.

    And Moses does not rashly connect these two things together; for the world, being always influenced by external splendor, estimates justice, not by the affection of the heart, but by bare works.

    Calvin is rightly pointing out the same thing Jesus said when He said:

    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

    It's the same point. If you have "hand and feet obedience", you just stick to the letter of the law, you are not justified. Not according to Jesus or Calvin. Some wrongly assume that Jesus and Calvin were saying "Give up on being Holy! Just live a garbage life but claim Christ's righteousness!" Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus said "Be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." He didn't say merely "Claim My perfection". Yes we can claim Christ's perfection, but that's just the beginning of the process. And that's where repentance comes in. Repentance is having the desire to be perfect. Sanctification comes as Christ works out His life in you.

    Edit: And the main point that I'm bringing up is that Calvin is confirming what I understood on my own but was condemned for saying. That God desires heart obedience. That's all. I didn't say anything about monergism or synergism in this particular thread. You threw that in there. I expect you to first learn to walk theologically before you can run. Seriously though, it should be a simple tas for anyone objectively reading the OP to come to the conclusion that Calvin is talking about heart obedience. Whether Calvin endorses synergism wasn't the point I was making.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-23-2012 at 01:57 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    What you are missing.

    And Moses does not rashly connect these two things together; for the world, being always influenced by external splendor, estimates justice, not by the affection of the heart, but by bare works.
    Why do you think I'm missing that?

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Why do you think I'm missing that?
    Well neither you nor I quoted that part. But more importantly, you're going off of a tangent. I didn't say Calvin endorsed synergism. I said Calvin said the same thing about heart obedience that I've said here at RPF before but was condemned by (hyper)-Calvinists for saying it. You're so eager to get to the end of the argument that you missed the premise.

    Edit: And it's fascinating that neither you nor Sola_Fide have yet to even attempt to address what I was saying regarding heart obedience as Calvin taught it.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-23-2012 at 02:02 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Well neither you nor I quoted that part. But more importantly, you're going off of a tangent. I didn't say Calvin endorsed synergism. I said Calvin said the same thing about heart obedience that I've said here at RPF before but was condemned by (hyper)-Calvinists for saying it. You're so eager to get to the end of the argument that you missed the premise.
    If somebody condemned you for saying that it probably had nothing to do with being a hyper-Calvinist.

    I agree that Calvin is clearly saying that he thinks Noah's righteousness was in his heart and not just outward.
    Last edited by erowe1; 10-23-2012 at 02:02 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    If somebody condemned you for saying that it probably had nothing to do with being a hyper-Calvinist.
    That someone was Sola_Fide and it had everything to do with his hyper-Calvinism. The "hyper" in "hyper-Calvinism" simply means "beyond" as in "beyond-Calvinism". He's going "beyond-Calvinism" in his belief system.

    I agree that Calvin is clearly saying that he thinks Noah's righteousness was in his heart and not just outward.
    Yes. But Calvin is saying more than that. Calvin is saying that having "pure love filling the heart" is a requirement to be pronounced righteous according to God's clemency. There is no other way to interpret what Calvin wrote! Now, maybe you believe that God "predestines" people to have pure love filling their heart. Fine. That's not what I'm debating in this particular thread. This whole argument boils down to where Sola_Fide claimed I was lost for feeling a need to obey Jesus. Well if Jesus "predestines" me to obey Him, then wouldn't He inducing a feeling of the need to obey? I think so. Calvin apparently thinks so. You might agree as well. If so, then you aren't a hyper-Calvinist.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    That someone was Sola_Fide and it had everything to do with his hyper-Calvinism. The "hyper" in "hyper-Calvinism" simply means "beyond" as in "beyond-Calvinism". He's going "beyond-Calvinism" in his belief system.



    Yes. But Calvin is saying more than that. Calvin is saying that having "pure love filling the heart" is a requirement to be pronounced righteous according to God's clemency. There is no other way to interpret what Calvin wrote! Now, maybe you believe that God "predestines" people to have pure love filling their heart. Fine. That's not what I'm debating in this particular thread. This whole argument boils down to where Sola_Fide claimed I was lost for feeling a need to obey Jesus. Well if Jesus "predestines" me to obey Him, then wouldn't He inducing a feeling of the need to obey? I think so. Calvin apparently thinks so. You might agree as well. If so, then you aren't a hyper-Calvinist.
    How is that going "beyond" Calvin? It seems like you could as easily say that anyone who disagrees with Calvin on anything is a hyper-Calvinist.

    Maybe you're looking at it from your vantage point, where whatever you believe is the center, and anyone who differs from you even more than Calvin does is a hyper-Calvinist.
    Last edited by erowe1; 10-23-2012 at 02:19 PM.

  26. #23
    Jmdrake,

    Have you ever considered that God gave us commandments for some other reason than for us to follow them?

    Romans 5:20 NIV

    The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.
    God gave us His law, not so that we could follow it, but so that our sin would increase! Why would God give us this law that increased our sinfulness, if He wanted us to follow it to be righteous?


    Maybe...just maybe...God was (and is) teaching men that they must lean on Him alone for salvation, and that salvation is a free gift, not a payment for your working.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Jmdrake,

    Have you ever considered that God gave us commandments for some other reason than for us to follow them?



    God gave us His law, not so that we could follow it, but so that our sin would increase! Why would God give us this law that increased our sinfulness, if He wanted us to follow it to be righteous?


    Maybe...just maybe...God was (and is) teaching men that they must lean on Him alone for salvation, and that salvation is a free gift, not a payment for your working.
    Obviously, it occurred to you. And to Orwell. Pass so many laws that a man cannot walk down the street without violating one or two, and call it justice.

    Or, perhaps, He gave us so many laws that no matter how imperfect He made us we could manage to obey one or two...

    I still can't forget the thing you ignore time and again--what Jesus Himself said in Matthew 25 about what criteria would seperate the Sheep from the Goats. He still contradicts you. And burning me at the stake the way Calvin did for those who disagreed with him won't change that...
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Here is one of my favorite sermons. It is the easiest-to-understand presentation of the difference between law and gospel that I've heard.

    Condemnation Through Commandments Or Comfort From Christ: The Law/Gospel Distinction Made Plain
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...ID=52205222454

    If you don't understand this distinction, then you cannot understand Christianity, and you cannot understand the Bible. It's that fundamental.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    If you don't understand this distinction, then you cannot understand Christianity, and you cannot understand the Bible. It's that fundamental.
    Says the guy who claims not to be a fundy...

    I humored you and am listening to that sermon. It's all review. The law is there to prove to us we can't obey the law. Yadda yadda. You still aren't even saying which law you're referring to, the law of the heart or the law of sin. And all along, I haven't even been saying anything about the law at all. I've been saying that Matthew 25 tells us who is and who isn't saved, and that passage doesn't directly address the law at all. Yet you won't address Matthew 25--when I bring it up, you just deflect the conversation to the law. For someone who thinks the law is just there to be broken, you surely are obsessed with it.

    Spare me. If you could have this conversation without using the word 'law', we might get somewhere.

    'Law messages' vs. 'grace messages' as a litmus test. Merciful Lord. Rather than spending my time trying to categorize everything that comes my way as a 'law message' or a 'grace message' and considering whether to be Calvinist enough to burn those who disagree at the stake, I'd rather spend my time trying to move my heart to the right place so I can better walk with God. You may suit yourself...
    Last edited by acptulsa; 10-23-2012 at 03:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    How is that going "beyond" Calvin? It seems like you could as easily say that anyone who disagrees with Calvin on anything is a hyper-Calvinist.
    Before I respond, are you even familiar with the term "hyper-Calvinist"?

    Maybe you're looking at it from your vantage point, where whatever you believe is the center, and anyone who differs from you even more than Calvin does is a hyper-Calvinist.
    Someone taking Calvinism beyond where even Calvin went with it is, by definition, a hyper-Calvinist. It doesn't matter where my "vantage point" is. It's a term Calvinists use with each other.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  32. #28
    LOLz. When all else fails find a sermon and post it even though nobody you are disagreeing with will listen. Whatever dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Here is one of my favorite sermons. It is the easiest-to-understand presentation of the difference between law and gospel that I've heard.

    Condemnation Through Commandments Or Comfort From Christ: The Law/Gospel Distinction Made Plain
    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...ID=52205222454

    If you don't understand this distinction, then you cannot understand Christianity, and you cannot understand the Bible. It's that fundamental.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Before I respond, are you even familiar with the term "hyper-Calvinist"?
    Yes. I've never seen it applied to what you're applying it to here before.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Someone taking Calvinism beyond where even Calvin went with it is, by definition, a hyper-Calvinist. It doesn't matter where my "vantage point" is. It's a term Calvinists use with each other.
    This is just a case of someone saying something different than Calvin. I don't see how it's taking Calvinism beyond where even Calvin took it. You could just as easily call SF hypo-Calvinist, and describe his view as not going as far as Calvin did.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Jmdrake,

    Have you ever considered that God gave us commandments for some other reason than for us to follow them?
    Sola_Fide, have you ever considered that there is more than one law? No. You haven't. Even though I've pointed this out to you in Paul's writings multiple times.

    God gave us His law, not so that we could follow it, but so that our sin would increase! Why would God give us this law that increased our sinfulness, if He wanted us to follow it to be righteous?
    If I answer your question will you be honorable and answer mine? I'm not holding my breath, but here goes.

    When someone goes against the law of God in ignorance, even if it isn't held against that person as "sin", that person is hurting himself and possibly others. There are always negative consequences for not doing things God's way. Let's take the sanitary laws given by Moses which include having your bathroom away from your camp. If someone didn't know about that and dug a latrine next to his tent was he "sinning"? Not according to Romans 5. Is that healthy? Not according to modern science. By bringing the law the "trespass increases" because people are made aware of what they were doing. That made them accountable for their actions. But God didn't leave people without hope under the law of sin and death. He gave the law of the Spirit. The law of liberty that brings life. Do you know the difference between the two laws?

    Maybe...just maybe...God was (and is) teaching men that they must lean on Him alone for salvation, and that salvation is a free gift, not a payment for your working.
    Or maybe, just maybe, God knew that man was destroying himself breaking the law in ignorance and in love He wanted man to realize this and repent. What happened when King Josiah found the book of the law? He repented. God honored that repentance. Repentance is not "payment" for salvation. It's the term of accepting the free gift. I've explained to you already that a gift is still a gift even if you accept it, yet you persist in the error that somehow acceptance = payment. Why is that?
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-23-2012 at 04:27 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Why John Calvin was not a murderer
    By Christian Liberty in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 188
    Last Post: 10-11-2015, 08:54 PM
  2. Citing John Calvin
    By jmdrake in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-01-2015, 02:41 PM
  3. John Calvin on Michael and Christ.
    By jmdrake in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 09-27-2014, 07:11 PM
  4. John Calvin Was Wrong
    By Sola_Fide in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 333
    Last Post: 09-17-2013, 10:55 PM
  5. John Calvin: The Founder Of America
    By Sola_Fide in forum Peace Through Religion
    Replies: 149
    Last Post: 06-11-2011, 05:51 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •