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Thread: I tried the anti-violence argument thing tonight

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    Trust me, I know the history of our involvement in the middle east better than anyone I know in real life. History and Facts mean nothing to these people. All I get is. Patriot Act GOOD!, Fight them there, not here!, Bush kept us Safe!, etc.
    Yeah. But, like someone said. Dont waste your time if they're stubborn. The best you can do is improve your debating skills.

    Or you can get with like minded people and agree with everyone you meet which isn't much fun either.
    Ron Paul let the cat out of the bag.

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  3. #32
    I'm right there with you lately. Disparagement all over the place, to the point of questioning the basics of liberty or just giving up and putting my head in the sand.

    And now I've half-written (and deleted) three posts trying to come up with some encouraging, hang-in-there points, but they all sound hollow. Basically just remember that there's no point getting down about things out of you control. You can't change everyone's mind, and we're still underdogs by many orders of magnitude.

    Some ideas: find a group activity you like doing, and get some other liberty cohorts to join you. Maybe a bowling or sports team. Maybe a band. Maybe you start a traditional small business, but with a liberty sub-tone. Surround yourself with those who support you, whether they agree with you or not - and remember to support others the same way. In short "be the change you wish to see in the world."

    Have you read Brown's "How I found freedom in an unfree world"?
    "You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    The State is in its death throes, and I am proud to be helping it die.
    So you're not paying your taxes? Thanks for not doing it!

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I've been part of the liberty movement since 2001. I know that's a short time for some, but for me that's 1/3 of my life and I've only seen things get worse. At least the really old timers saw an end to the Vietnam war and maybe considered that a victory. I'm trying to think of any victory for liberty in my entire life, and I'm coming up blank.
    I haven't read any farther than this so someone might have said this already, but just wanted to comment on this.

    First, I completely understand how you feel here. I've had my moments, like I'm sure most of us have. I've only been participating since 01 myself, but I paid attention much longer than that. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the successes you mentioned in your original post.

    While not earthshattering by any means, Ron's success in getting the idea if liberty into the public eye last election season coupled with the liberty candidates that have been elected recently is amazing. I mean, who would have thought 5 years ago that a random member of an internet forum would be inspired to run for office and win?

    It does seem so daunting sometimes, just this evening I had a moment thinking about it all. But your post helped me step back and remember what we've done. So thank you for that.

  7. #35
    Liberty has a high learning curve, and there is a lot of government propaganda out there (public schools, media, etc.) that they need to overcome.

    It takes multiple exposures to liberty (or multiple exposures to the government infringing on their liberty) for things to click.

    One at a time. One at a time.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by mczerone View Post
    I'm right there with you lately. Disparagement all over the place, to the point of questioning the basics of liberty or just giving up and putting my head in the sand.
    Geez, what's with all the Negative Nancies around here? I mean, I only cut my earlier post short because it was getting on the long side. Here's another great recent development: Second amendment rights have made huge strides recovering their nadir a few decades ago. The recent incorporation of the Second Amendment against the states is a huge deal for Liberty, and was the work of decades.

    I think you young guys (and gals) just aren't familiar with how bad things really were back in the 70s. With a little bit of historical context, you'd see that we really are making a difference, and what's more, our momentum is building!

    For Heaven's sake, now isn't the time to sit around feeling sorry for yourself, or making self-fulfilling prophesies about how no one will listen to your arguments! Defeatism is just a form of laziness, guys. And if you absolutely must indulge in melancholic musings, at least wait until December 2012 to start
    Last edited by Inkblots; 03-23-2011 at 10:40 PM.
    “Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?” - Oxenstiern

    Violence will not save us. Let us love one another, for love is from God.

  9. #37
    the only thing that is going to encourage you is to take a large step back and see the big picture. This forum wasn't here back in 2001, and neither was youtube =)

    The tiny dots....


  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Inkblots View Post
    Geez, what's with all the Negative Nancies around here? I mean, I only cut my earlier post short because it was getting on the long side. Here's another great recent development: Second amendment rights have made huge strides recovering their nadir a few decades ago. The recent incorporation of the Second Amendment against the states is a huge deal for Liberty, and was the work of decades.

    I think you young guys (and gals) just aren't familiar with how bad things really were back in the 70s. With a little bit of historical context, you'd see that we really are making a difference, and what's more, our momentum is building!

    For Heaven's sake, now isn't the time to sit around feeling sorry for yourself, or making self-fulfilling prophesies about how no one will listen to your arguments! Defeatism is just a form of laziness, guys. And if you absolutely must indulge in melancholic musings, at least wait until December 2012 to start
    Maybe it's our growth that has intensified the stupidity focused at us - we're resonating with more people, for good and bad.

    And as for "defeatism", I was more at a point where I questioned the goals, at which point stalling makes sense to assess whether you really want to keep going that direction.
    "You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by low preference guy View Post
    So you're not paying your taxes? Thanks for not doing it!
    Yep, we unemployed folks don't pay taxes. (btw, I didn't choose to be unemployed-it's only because the jobs simply aren't there) If I was employed, I'd dodge taxes in every way I could.

    edit: well, technically I do pay taxes because inflation is a type of tax.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 03-23-2011 at 11:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by mczerone View Post
    Maybe it's our growth that has intensified the stupidity focused at us - we're resonating with more people, for good and bad.

    And as for "defeatism", I was more at a point where I questioned the goals, at which point stalling makes sense to assess whether you really want to keep going that direction.
    Well, absolutely the movement is more prominent than at any other time in modern history. Just compare the number of appearances of Ron and Rand Paul on cable and broadcast news, and non-Liberty blogs and news sites now versus 2 years ago. Andrew Napolitano has his own TV show! Even Glenn Beck, of all people, is borrowing Ron's talking points. If heat produces light, in the media landscape the opposite is also true: light produces heat. As our ideas are more and more in the spotlight, friction and pushback from our opponents will only increase. The attention we're getting should be encouraging, not discouraging.

    As to questioning our goals, look, I enjoy a bit of omphaloskepsis as much as the next fellow, but rest assured that the goals of advancing freedom and Constitutional government are the right fight to have, and what's more, in the long game, we're winning!
    Last edited by Inkblots; 03-23-2011 at 11:06 PM.
    “Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?” - Oxenstiern

    Violence will not save us. Let us love one another, for love is from God.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by newbitech View Post
    the only thing that is going to encourage you is to take a large step back and see the big picture. This forum wasn't here back in 2001, and neither was youtube =)

    The tiny dots....

    hehe...classic! ^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    Unfortunately, I'm married.
    Hope your wife doesnt read the forums...

  16. #43
    I'm very happy that you went out and stood your ground using the "against me" argument. (BTW it's Stefan Molyneux, not Steven). I totally empathize with where you are at. It can feel pretty lonely sometimes when you are standing in a pack of jackals trying to promote non-violence! I know, however, that we are on the right side, and the truth WILL rise to the top, even if it takes a really long time. The current overriding philosophy is collectivism, so we have a long way to go. But if we all just keep speaking the truth and have empathy for the people we are dealing with, we can get there. Remember, these neocons and liberals are NOT evil people. They are just stuck in the matrix. Trying to force them out does us no good.

    Just keep on empathizing and trying to understand them. They ALL have the capability to understand the truth, as hard as that may seem sometimes. Explain it, just as you did, but do not condemn them for choosing the violent path, simply point it out- and go about living your life the best way you can- have fun, enjoy your relationships, make money, travel, and speak the truth when you can- but also give yourself a break sometimes.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I did. He said we gave a collective consent to the police forces to initiate violence.
    I'm not sure he understands what delegating a right is, then; you can't give someone else the right to do something if you don't have the right yourself. That said, he won't accept this terminology, when push comes to shove, or will move on to wackier arguments.

  18. #45
    You are mistaken as to how this works. You are going about it the wrong way.

    Start here: http://www.vcdl.org/new/realpolitics.htm

    Then go here and find someone in your state that you can work with: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
    Last edited by LibertyMage; 03-24-2011 at 01:23 AM. Reason: Additions
    "It's absolutely astounding...the Tea Party is one of the biggest movements in history, and every one we've been to has been FERTILE ground for our ideas." -TheTyke

  19. #46
    We need to brainwash kids before the state gets to them.

  20. #47
    I also used to be a HARDCORE warmongering borderline-theocrat neoconservative. I yelled my throat out for George W. Bush in 2000 and 2004, and I worked my butt off for Rudy Giuliani For President for most of 2007. It was a very slow process of conversion, and even while my opinions were slowly changing, I didn't let on outwardly what was happening.

    The kernel of liberty was planted in the summer of 2007, when local Ron Paul supporters organized a huge Fourth of July rally in my city. As I was driving to work, I saw these homemade signs along the road saying "No Big Government", "No To Taxes," "No Socialism," and all these things that I agreed with, and suddenly I saw "No Big Brother," "No More War", and all these things that I was supposed to not agree with, and finally, I saw a "Ron Paul R[EVOL]UTION" sign at the end. That was the first time it even occurred to me that the spy state and the wars were actually a form of big government, something I claimed to oppose.

    This made me curious, so I went to RonPaulForum.com and later RonPaulForums.com and struck up debates with some of you people here. Even as you people demolished my neocon arguments and were actually persuading me, I kept acting like I wasn't being convinced, and argued even more fervently for neoconservatism. But progress was being made in my mind.

    When you people raised all that money over the course of the week of Constitution Day, it made me respect you for your dedication to the original principles of the Constitution. Seeing your dedication to the Constitution made me want to become that dedicated to the Constitution. I slowly came around to Ron Paul's interpretation of the Constitution, but I still rationalized my support for neoconservatism by saying that supporting libertarian and constitutionalist candidates just wasn't realistic, and that I'd just have to support the most small-government candidate that "could actually win," (which I felt was Rudy Giuliani).

    But I softened enough to give in and read Ron Paul's "A Foreign Policy of Freedom." I was so blown away when I read that book and saw how Ron Paul's predictions and warnings regarding foreign policy came true over and over again, and how, if only Congress had listened to him and the Constitution, so many of the foreign policy problems we've had over the years would have never happened. That made me firmly a non-interventionist (and even more firmly after I read "Dying to Win" by Robert Pape). I then donated to the Ron Paul 2008 campaign and declared myself a Ron Paul supporter.

    Even if the person you're trying to persuade doesn't budge an inch, doesn't mean you're not making a difference. Some people take a lot of work to convince, and won't even outwardly reveal their inner changes until the very last second.
    DRAFT JUSTIN AMASH 2020
    http://www.DraftAmash.com

  21. #48
    Oh, puppy. You were doing so well until right at the end. Then you tried to take too big a bite.

    When you get to that moment, you have to leave it at, 'And do you think its right for the government to use force and legalized theft to prevent me from using vegetable oil in my diesel truck?' Leave it there. If they're capable of extrapolating that out, they will. If not, at least they will consider how dumb that 'approved motor fuels' law is. That alone will cause a little erosion.

    Also, don't assume that just because they 'saved face' and 'didn't give you the satisfaction', that you failed. You don't know if the guy woke up in the middle of the night and said, 'Just damn!' or not.

    Thirdly, yes. When you need to recharge your batteries, recharge your batteries.

    'You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run...'--never expected to quote Kenny Rogers on this site

    Know when to walk away. Preferably after flashing a little smile that says, 'I don't use alternative, renewable energy because the government you love says I can't. You know I'm right and I know this is going to haunt you. Just that one little adjustment and your technique (I'm assuming, since you need good technique to get as far as you did) may just be perfect.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 03-24-2011 at 07:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    These days? That's always what has passed for conservatism.

    And exactly the same thing goes for (modern) liberalism, too.

    They just disagree about what should be forced upon whom.



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  23. #49
    Keep you chin up and I encourage you to tap into your own spiritual side for true strength. Seek to understand the nature of human nature. The resistance that you speak of is inherent in virtually all human beings. It is the need for self preservation. Many will resist and even fight to preserve their own egoic self, i.e. sinful nature in religious terms. If you don't subscribe to religion I encourage you to read A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. If you do have a religion, I encourage you to delve into the psycho-spiritual side of it for strength. Many are Christian but few choose the path that Christ walked because they fail to grasp the full message. Best wishes and as long as your heart is in the right place you will be a force for change. If you heart is corrupted, then what is in your mind will have little impact on others. Patience my friend.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I wish I believed you, but I think the State is just metamorphosing from a maggot that is limited by localities, into a Fly that will span the globe.
    Whenever you get down in the dumps on our progress, check out the Glen Bradly pages:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/forumdi...-Bradley-Forum

  25. #51
    That is the problem I saw right away with Stephan's argument. Most people think "violence" is fine when it's done by a democratic government and when they agree with the program. I think I have a better approach. Go strait to the philosophical base. Talk about slavery. Everyone thinks slavery is wrong. You can us that to dispel the virtues of democracy being that it was a majority that upheld slavery and the Jim Crow laws in this country. Also, you can use slavery vs freedom approach to show that there are three aspects of freedom (life liberty property) and extrapolate these ideas and make them relevant to the issues your are debating.
    Tax is theft. War is murder. Conscription is slavery. Government is organized crime.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by McBell View Post
    Stop being so impatient.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    Tonight, I went to the first tea-party rally in my community. We had both liberals and conservatives there. I already know that my local conservatives are a lost cause of neocon warmongers, so I thought I'd strike up a conversation with one of the Libs.
    Where you live the liberals and neocons actually come together? That's great! That means there is a group of people who are willing to put aside their differences for something positive. So, what do these two sides agree on? I'm guessing it's something you agree on too. Start from a point of agreement and move from there.

    He was a big supporter of the EPA, and I said I wasn't. I went through Steve's argument about how I fully support his decision to support the EPA and would never think of initiating violence against him for it and all that. I then asked if he would afford me the same and he said yes. I then asked him if he supports alternative energy and he said yes. I then told him that I run my truck on Vegetable oil. He agreed that was great. I then told him that the EPA has declared that it is a violation of their regulations to use any non-standardized fuel in a motor vehicle and that I could be fined, and if I don't pay the fines, I could be arrested and jailed. Did he agree that that was violence? Yes, he said. Did he think he had the personal ability to arrest and jail me. No, he said. I told him that do you think that it is justified that we have authorized a federal agency to perform that task. He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority. He then said that he didn't agree with my NAP philosophy of Liberty.
    I wasn't aware of this position by the EPA. Apparently biodiesel is "ok" by them (even though making biodiesel itself is a process that requires using hazardous materials) but SVO isn't.

    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/renewablefuels/420f10009.htm

    Pretty stupid position on the part of the EPA in my opinion. But you have to look at it from your liberal friend's point of view. He's position is that the EPA is really looking out for us and that they know what they are doing. So in his mind if the EPA says burning SVO isn't safe for the environment, maybe it's not safe for the environment. By burning something not safe for the environment and polluting the air he has to breath you are doing violence against him. Now before you jump on me, realize that I think that's a crock, but applying "the EPA are the good guys" logic it makes sense. So before you can convince him that isn't true you'll have to convince him of how scientifically unsound that particular stance by the EPA is.

    My first attempt to use a new argument. I thought I was doing so well. But I'm convinced that people believe in violence, force, and big government. This was my final attempt to get involved locally. I officially give up.

    I wrote this letter to the organizer...
    If you're going to give up on an entire group because one person doesn't immediately see that his favorite government agency isn't what he thinks it is, then you need to step back and regroup. Few people are convinced to completely change their world view from a single argument no matter how good it is. I haven't watched the Stephen video in question, but if he gave you that impression then he did you a disservice.

    I'm not sure why I even come to this forum anymore. It's so depressing to see that even as our organization makes noise and gets attention, that we haven't actually stopped any wars. We haven't closed any agencies, we haven't kicked the feds out of any local jurisdictions, and we haven't killed any taxes.

    I'm so sick of it all. Somebody tell me something encouraging. Not just attempts, but actually successes. Rand Paul in office is just an attempt until he gets some meaningful legislation passed or kills or repeals some freedom killing legislation . So is Glen Bradley, Justin Amash, etc. I sometimes just want to put my head in the sand and give up and hope and pray that my family doesn't get purged in the inevitable political cleansing that will probably happen sometime in the next few decades.
    Here in TN we've stopped some worse legislation from being passed. We also have expanded gun rights a bit. Thomas-in-KY has had some success also. And before Rand ran his "Take back Kentucky" organization killed a lot of bad bills. Things are bleak, but not as bad as you think. Patience grasshopper....
    Last edited by jmdrake; 03-24-2011 at 08:20 AM.
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #53
    Some people just like violence man.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post

    He was a big supporter of the EPA, and I said I wasn't. I went through Steve's argument about how I fully support his decision to support the EPA and would never think of initiating violence against him for it and all that. I then asked if he would afford me the same and he said yes. I then asked him if he supports alternative energy and he said yes. I then told him that I run my truck on Vegetable oil. He agreed that was great. I then told him that the EPA has declared that it is a violation of their regulations to use any non-standardized fuel in a motor vehicle and that I could be fined, and if I don't pay the fines, I could be arrested and jailed. Did he agree that that was violence? Yes, he said. Did he think he had the personal ability to arrest and jail me. No, he said. I told him that do you think that it is justified that we have authorized a federal agency to perform that task. He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority. He then said that he didn't agree with my NAP philosophy of Liberty.
    What a fantastic way of putting it...very glad I read this. Most of us get frustrated way to fast, looks like you are doing a great job of actually going farther to make sense to those we are trying to convince...don't give up bro.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I could be arrested and jailed. Did he agree that that was violence? Yes, he said. Did he think he had the personal ability to arrest and jail me. No, he said. I told him that do you think that it is justified that we have authorized a federal agency to perform that task. He answered "Yes" we have collectively given that authority.
    Should the government have authority that does not derive itself from the authority of the people? How can it be a government of the people if it has authority beyond that of the people who authorize that government? Such a government is based on tyranny, not on liberty and personal rights.

    All government authority should be derived from the consent of the governed, which have no right to give consent to a government to do what they, personally, have no right to do themselves. Collective (government) rights are no greater than individual rights.

    I suggest you add that to your arguments.

  30. #56
    Look around, i doubt very many of us were born libertarians...

    The best lesson to learn from this whole ordeal is that people take time to change their mind. I was a neocon as well and i would have gone to the mat against anyone. In fact i debated a libertarian in college on the drug war using the standard arguments and went away unconvinced. Each person is different and in order to start to change their mind you have to plant a seed of doubt to create that chink in the armor. While that man that you were talking with outwardly disagreed with you, he has to come to grips that he advocated violence for something he didnt agree with. That is cognitively dissonant and either he will rationalize it some way or he will start to think about it your way.

    Psychologically speaking, people rarely change their minds on topics they find important when presented with an argument against. The only way that mind is changed is in four ways. 1, they cannot deal with the logical implications of their own position and adopt a new one. 2, Someone whose opinion they respect and admire changes their opinion and then convinces the other. 3, Something else has changed in their life that warrants a change of mind (a death in the family, marriage, etc). 4, After they have changed one of their opinions then it may act like a domino effect changing the rest.

    For example, i was a victim of #2. A very good friend of mine whose political leanings mirrored mine, told me about Ron Paul (this was in November of 2008) and his discovery of him. I started reading lewrockwell.com and that was it. Then after i started to see how the wars in the middle east were retarded it brought me around on everything else.
    Last edited by eqcitizen; 03-24-2011 at 10:47 AM.
    As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy.
    - Christopher Dawson

    Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods.
    - H. L. Mencken



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by AGRP View Post

    However, even more shocking, our Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, declared that the Pentagon was missing $2.3 Trillion on September 10, 2001, the day before 9/11.
    So, whatever happened with that money?

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I did. He said we gave a collective consent to the police forces to initiate violence.
    So he was okay with the Rodney King beating?

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by outspoken View Post
    Many are Christian but few choose the path that Christ walked because they fail to grasp the full message.
    Could you elaborate more on this?

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by TIMB0B View Post
    Could you elaborate more on this?
    Oh goodness, here we go again. Elaborate as you will but please start a new thread to do it in.

    For this thread's purposes: If he means few Christians are as good as they should be at turning the other cheek, that much is relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    These days? That's always what has passed for conservatism.

    And exactly the same thing goes for (modern) liberalism, too.

    They just disagree about what should be forced upon whom.

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