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Thread: Part of the problem or the solution?

  1. #1

    Part of the problem or the solution?

    So far we've been part of the problem, people.

    No, I'm not accusing any forum members or other liberty voters of deliberately giving loans to people who can't pay them and licking their chops in anticipation of foreclosing on their houses later--only to find they've depreciated.

    I'm just wondering if, in amongst our calls to let the free market work, we're willing to put our money where our mouths are. So far, we've gotten out of the market and out of the banks. This is wise, but isn't helping. Putting our own cash reserves into gold and stuffing the mattress is both uncomfortable at night and a part of the problem--we are reducing the banks' reserves to the point where they must keep what liquidity they have left or risk everything. It isn't our fault they've gotten into such a tricky position, but we just aren't helping. We're a small part of the problem, but still not part of the solution.

    So, why the hell don't we form the First Paultardian National Bank--or, in a more likely scenario, the Liberty Voters' Credit Union? We get online banking services and the nation gets more credit. We can get in with a few ATM networks and set up a simple website that won't crash anyone's computer with overly slick graphics, no matter how primitive their software. We can depend on meetups to do initial investigations of potential loan customers and have a small staff that travels and ensures that no meetups are scamming the institution. We can take advantage of a hot market, and we can do it nimbly because our brand new institution won't have the baggage that is slowing the mainstream banks down right now.

    Do we have anyone who has experience running a credit union? Do we have the willingness to put up and demonstrate that we have the solution and the guts to implement it? Change is opportunity--and this would be an opportunity to not only profit and get ourselves in a trustworthy source of financial services, but to help ease the credit crunch.

    Then, when people ask us if we do anything to help or do we just try to block plans, we can have a great answer for them. We are creating credit. Not stupid credit, not irresponsible credit, not usurous credit designed to help the poor fail, but useful credit to help small business survive uncertain times and uncertain markets. We are part of the solution!

    Anyone have a good reason why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.



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  3. #2
    Bump for an interesting proposition.
    If God himself got off his throne, descended from the heavens, trumpetted at my door, and announced that I was wasting my time trying to get Ron Paul into the Whitehouse, I would thank him for his concern and ask him to leave me to my business. I've wasted lots of time on far less noble causes. ~RockEnds

  4. #3
    I like the way you think, acptulsa

    That being said, I have no idea how viable this idea is. I'm curious to see some of the responses.
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SnappleLlama View Post
    I like the way you think, acptulsa

    That being said, I have no idea how viable this idea is. I'm curious to see some of the responses.
    Yeah, I don't either. But I sure do want us to be both heroes and making money. I can't help but think that would help the cause.

    If money is power, change is opportunity, and we are free marketeers, then this idea is full of promise--provided we can pull it off safely and responsibly.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 09-30-2008 at 07:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  6. #5
    Well? Can we show them how it's done? I know we aren't all talk. Can't we show them something besides 'microtargeting' in elections?
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So far we've been part of the problem, people.

    No, I'm not accusing any forum members or other liberty voters of deliberately giving loans to people who can't pay them and licking their chops in anticipation of foreclosing on their houses later--only to find they've depreciated.

    I'm just wondering if, in amongst our calls to let the free market work, we're willing to put our money where our mouths are. So far, we've gotten out of the market and out of the banks. This is wise, but isn't helping. Putting our own cash reserves into gold and stuffing the mattress is both uncomfortable at night and a part of the problem--we are reducing the banks' reserves to the point where they must keep what liquidity they have left or risk everything. It isn't our fault they've gotten into such a tricky position, but we just aren't helping. We're a small part of the problem, but still not part of the solution.

    So, why the hell don't we form the First Paultardian National Bank--or, in a more likely scenario, the Liberty Voters' Credit Union? We get online banking services and the nation gets more credit. We can get in with a few ATM networks and set up a simple website that won't crash anyone's computer with overly slick graphics, no matter how primitive their software. We can depend on meetups to do initial investigations of potential loan customers and have a small staff that travels and ensures that no meetups are scamming the institution. We can take advantage of a hot market, and we can do it nimbly because our brand new institution won't have the baggage that is slowing the mainstream banks down right now.

    Do we have anyone who has experience running a credit union? Do we have the willingness to put up and demonstrate that we have the solution and the guts to implement it? Change is opportunity--and this would be an opportunity to not only profit and get ourselves in a trustworthy source of financial services, but to help ease the credit crunch.

    Then, when people ask us if we do anything to help or do we just try to block plans, we can have a great answer for them. We are creating credit. Not stupid credit, not irresponsible credit, not usurous credit designed to help the poor fail, but useful credit to help small business survive uncertain times and uncertain markets. We are part of the solution!

    Anyone have a good reason why not?
    Seriously, why couldn't we find someone to form a credit union for us? I think it's a wonderful idea. In the meantime, I'll live with inconvenience.
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So far we've been part of the problem, people.

    No, I'm not accusing any forum members or other liberty voters of deliberately giving loans to people who can't pay them and licking their chops in anticipation of foreclosing on their houses later--only to find they've depreciated.

    I'm just wondering if, in amongst our calls to let the free market work, we're willing to put our money where our mouths are. So far, we've gotten out of the market and out of the banks. This is wise, but isn't helping. Putting our own cash reserves into gold and stuffing the mattress is both uncomfortable at night and a part of the problem--we are reducing the banks' reserves to the point where they must keep what liquidity they have left or risk everything. It isn't our fault they've gotten into such a tricky position, but we just aren't helping. We're a small part of the problem, but still not part of the solution.

    So, why the hell don't we form the First Paultardian National Bank--or, in a more likely scenario, the Liberty Voters' Credit Union? We get online banking services and the nation gets more credit. We can get in with a few ATM networks and set up a simple website that won't crash anyone's computer with overly slick graphics, no matter how primitive their software. We can depend on meetups to do initial investigations of potential loan customers and have a small staff that travels and ensures that no meetups are scamming the institution. We can take advantage of a hot market, and we can do it nimbly because our brand new institution won't have the baggage that is slowing the mainstream banks down right now.

    Do we have anyone who has experience running a credit union? Do we have the willingness to put up and demonstrate that we have the solution and the guts to implement it? Change is opportunity--and this would be an opportunity to not only profit and get ourselves in a trustworthy source of financial services, but to help ease the credit crunch.

    Then, when people ask us if we do anything to help or do we just try to block plans, we can have a great answer for them. We are creating credit. Not stupid credit, not irresponsible credit, not usurous credit designed to help the poor fail, but useful credit to help small business survive uncertain times and uncertain markets. We are part of the solution!

    Anyone have a good reason why not?
    Your way off base. You gave those dollars to someone to buy that gold. They obviously didn't put it into gold. Those dollars are still in circulation. Furthermore, all these banks failing are a result of the free market fixing the system. These banks were retarded and have no business being in business. The free market is fixing that with them going under. We'll have better banks who actually make smart decision in the future if we left to the free market. The fed created the artificial boom that wasn't based on a strong economy. The free market is purging out all the excesses. Most people don't enjoy that part but it's necessary to get back to a healthy economy.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by theoakman View Post
    Your way off base. You gave those dollars to someone to buy that gold. They obviously didn't put it into gold. Those dollars are still in circulation. Furthermore, all these banks failing are a result of the free market fixing the system. These banks were retarded and have no business being in business. The free market is fixing that with them going under. We'll have better banks who actually make smart decision in the future if we left to the free market. The fed created the artificial boom that wasn't based on a strong economy. The free market is purging out all the excesses. Most people don't enjoy that part but it's necessary to get back to a healthy economy.
    Do I not understand you or did you not understand me? My point is, rather than buy gold we could use our money to make loans in competition with the incompetent banks. Thus we are part of the free market solution to the problem, and help put some incompetent banks to bed. See what I'm after now?
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.



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  11. #9
    I don't wanna help propping up their system. The cure is gonna be painful, but if we now try to make it less painfull, they might choose to not cure it at all. The system has to fail, the quicker the better.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fatjohn View Post
    I don't wanna help propping up their system. The cure is gonna be painful, but if we now try to make it less painfull, they might choose to not cure it at all. The system has to fail, the quicker the better.
    By competing with the established banks, we aren't propping them up. And the kind of small business that occasionally needs a short term loan to tide them over from payday to the day the customers get their checks sent in, or a loan to help a responsible business bring out a new product, won't help the fat cats. These loans will help Main St. only.

    I'm not advocating saving Wall St. I'm looking for ways we can help ensure that the failure of Wall Street doesn't cause too much pain on Main Street. That's why I say this may be an opportunity to come out of this as minor heroes.

    What's the fastest way to use the free market to kill something? Compete with it!
    Last edited by acptulsa; 09-30-2008 at 09:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  13. #11

    informal banks

    In some cultures - Korean-American for one - the people create informal banks to help each other. They aren't chartered or anything and they don't engage in fractional reserve banking. They operate like sound money banks should. They take deposits and make loans out of the deposits. I don't know if they charge or pay interest or not. They have the power of cultural pressure making sure the borrowers do everything possible to pay back the loan. I would be surprised if the Amish DIDN'T have something similar.

  14. #12
    I'm intrigued by this idea. Anyone notice the sheer number of "payday" loan companies? Those things are everywhere!

    I think the time is just about ripe for something like this and it sure would be nice to find a way to tie the loans to precious metals somehow. Maybe then our fellow "mattress stuffers" might be more interested.

    Just some initial thoughts..
    We have two major parties [in America], the stupid party and the evil party. Every once in a while they manage to work together and we call it "bipartisanship".
    ~Thomas Woods, Rally for the Republic

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JaylieWoW View Post
    I'm intrigued by this idea. Anyone notice the sheer number of "payday" loan companies? Those things are everywhere!

    I think the time is just about ripe for something like this and it sure would be nice to find a way to tie the loans to precious metals somehow. Maybe then our fellow "mattress stuffers" might be more interested.

    Just some initial thoughts..
    I thought of that. If the credit union offered a good rate on silver and gold exchange--particularly on old U.S. coins--it could find that several of its loan customers pay the loans off that way. The credit union vault could collect quite a few of them.

    If we get the gold standard restored, that would put our little credit union in the enviable position of being able to help get the new currency in circulation. Provided the government goes with the old standards, the old coins could be circulated as a stopgap measure, and this could be loaned to the federal government. The government would be replacing FRNs with money, which means buying FRNs with money. If we circulated the money sooner and let them buy our FRNs later (just because we have the old but standard coins to offer our customers) they'd owe us interest...
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  16. #14
    In order to open a credit union or a bank you must adhere to the rules set out by the FED. They run all the banking and there is a reason for that. They want to have complete control of the system.

    All banks and credit unions operate on expansion of the money supply. This is done for a number of reasons. First and foremost is the ability to collapse the system when the PTB want to take on more of the real property. Second, there are enormous profits in the fractional banking system. While it appears that banks take on risk in reality there is none.

    The FED requires a 10 to 1 lending ratio. This means if the bank has one million dollars it can lend out ten million. If there is a default on two million dollars what the heck does the bank care? The bank didn't have the 2 million to begin with, and they are still collecting on another 8 million.

    Fractional banking accomplishes a couple of things. One it continually expands the money supply thereby increasing the dollar value for property and then perpetuating the need to borrow more money. By perpetuating the need to borrow more it continually expands the profit margins. Every time it takes back more money on the previous loans it increases its reserve money, which in turn is lent out at the 10 to 1 margin.

    By constantly inflating prices in this method it makes it impossible for legitimate banks to take hold. Banks that would be forced to lend out of their real assets would need enormous amounts of capital on hand to make loans. If you wanted to make one million dollars in loans you would need to have one million dollars on hand, plus operating expenses sufficient to cover until interest payments plus premiums started to flow. In addition you would have to be able to cover the default on any part or all of the one million dollars you lent out.

    The problem is not stashing precious metals, but rather the fact that anyone believes that investment in the stock market represents free market enterprise. Free market vanishes in a fiat monetary system. Then add to the fact that giant corporations can borrow huge amounts of money and stifle smaller businesses that actually benefit communities. Large corporations are responsible for outsourcing, and the complete depletion of our manufacturing sector.
    "Poverty of the state exchequer causes an army to be maintained by contributions from a distance. Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes the people to be impoverished."
    Sun Tzu

    Restore The Republic.Org

    PokeTheEye.ORG

  17. #15
    Here's the response of a banker friend of mine:


    It is something you certainly could do. The problem is that you would probably have to be an internet bank because of the widespread geographic area of the participants. You would need at least $25 million in capital to start it and still allow for the ability to do enough loans. You could not have meetups to approve loans, though. You would have to have an automated approval system.

    One of the biggest problems is the overnight lending rate that banks charge to each other. It is unbelievably high right now because of the lack of credit and risk-aversion of the counterparties. Initially, this would be good because you would have excess funds to loan.
    If God himself got off his throne, descended from the heavens, trumpetted at my door, and announced that I was wasting my time trying to get Ron Paul into the Whitehouse, I would thank him for his concern and ask him to leave me to my business. I've wasted lots of time on far less noble causes. ~RockEnds

  18. #16

    Credit unions?

    Quote Originally Posted by PatriotG View Post
    In order to open a credit union or a bank you must adhere to the rules set out by the FED. They run all the banking and there is a reason for that. They want to have complete control of the system.

    All banks and credit unions operate on expansion of the money supply. This is done for a number of reasons. First and foremost is the ability to collapse the system when the PTB want to take on more of the real property. Second, there are enormous profits in the fractional banking system. While it appears that banks take on risk in reality there is none.

    The FED requires a 10 to 1 lending ratio. This means if the bank has one million dollars it can lend out ten million. If there is a default on two million dollars what the heck does the bank care? The bank didn't have the 2 million to begin with, and they are still collecting on another 8 million.

    Fractional banking accomplishes a couple of things. One it continually expands the money supply thereby increasing the dollar value for property and then perpetuating the need to borrow more money. By perpetuating the need to borrow more it continually expands the profit margins. Every time it takes back more money on the previous loans it increases its reserve money, which in turn is lent out at the 10 to 1 margin.

    By constantly inflating prices in this method it makes it impossible for legitimate banks to take hold. Banks that would be forced to lend out of their real assets would need enormous amounts of capital on hand to make loans. If you wanted to make one million dollars in loans you would need to have one million dollars on hand, plus operating expenses sufficient to cover until interest payments plus premiums started to flow. In addition you would have to be able to cover the default on any part or all of the one million dollars you lent out.

    The problem is not stashing precious metals, but rather the fact that anyone believes that investment in the stock market represents free market enterprise. Free market vanishes in a fiat monetary system. Then add to the fact that giant corporations can borrow huge amounts of money and stifle smaller businesses that actually benefit communities. Large corporations are responsible for outsourcing, and the complete depletion of our manufacturing sector.

    Not sure you can tar Credit Unions with the same brush here.

    Credit Unions are not-for-profit entities. They also cannot sell securities and they typically keep their own mortgages in house rather than bundling and marketing them. Presumably they still engage in fractional reserve banking practices, but I don't know that for sure. I also don't know that they can borrow from the Fed. do you know? Credit unions survived the Great Depression where most banks failed.

    Banks hate credit unions. They take every opportunity to try and crush them. so they MUST be good! Right? Hahahaha! Any enemy of the banks is a friend of mine.



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  20. #17
    Another reason behind this idea, PatriotG.

    Of course, to compete we'd have to start out playing the game that is underway on the field. However, if we can implement real change, this credit union would presumably have the best and most complete contingency plan of them all and should be a poster child for how to do a smooth transition.

    This would be especially valuable considering how many bankers will be screaming that we're making business impossible and so destroying the country. "Oh? Then how is it that this credit union is already there and going strong?"
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Not sure you can tar Credit Unions with the same brush here.

    Credit Unions are not-for-profit entities. They also cannot sell securities and they typically keep their own mortgages in house rather than bundling and marketing them. Presumably they still engage in fractional reserve banking practices, but I don't know that for sure. I also don't know that they can borrow from the Fed. do you know? Credit unions survived the Great Depression where most banks failed.

    Banks hate credit unions. They take every opportunity to try and crush them. so they MUST be good! Right? Hahahaha! Any enemy of the banks is a friend of mine.
    My apologies, for the most part you are correct on the Credit Unions. When I wrote the response I was thinking in terms of lenders such as GMAC. I have been on a rampage lately trying to explain to people at the major financial institution where I work that the FED is not part of the government and money gets created out of thin air. Its like spitting into the wind.

    I think that Credit Unions cannot operate using fractional banking. I am not sure how they produce enough money to lend in the current atmosphere, so for now I can only restate that I was thinking in the line of mortgage lenders and such.
    "Poverty of the state exchequer causes an army to be maintained by contributions from a distance. Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes the people to be impoverished."
    Sun Tzu

    Restore The Republic.Org

    PokeTheEye.ORG

  22. #19
    interesting idea that I'd like to see expounded on more. I'm guessing right now there are lots of out of work investment bankers & the like that might be ready to help startup something more sound than from whence they came.

    also wondering, would the folkds at goldmoney.com, et al, be possible entities that would be willing to expand into the credit union space?
    The bigger government gets, the smaller I wish it was.
    My new motto: More Love, Less Laws

  23. #20
    Bump for the evening brainiacs.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  24. #21
    This is a good idea. In addition to holding 100% reserves on accounts, we should also issue our own private money in gold. Get around the mess of the Liberty Dollar by not calling it a dollar, and having big, bold print that states "This is not legal tender, this is a private issue, gold-backed, security."
    http://www.ronpaul2012.com/
    Quote Originally Posted by GK Chesterton
    It is often supposed that when people stop believing in God, they believe in nothing. Alas, it is worse than that. When they stop believing in God, they believe in anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rt. Hon. Edmund Burke
    Nothing is so fatal to religion as indifference.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PatriotG View Post
    In order to open a credit union or a bank you must adhere to the rules set out by the FED. They run all the banking and there is a reason for that. They want to have complete control of the system.
    Only nationally chartered banks must do this, state chartered banks do not need to become Fed members.
    http://www.ronpaul2012.com/
    Quote Originally Posted by GK Chesterton
    It is often supposed that when people stop believing in God, they believe in nothing. Alas, it is worse than that. When they stop believing in God, they believe in anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rt. Hon. Edmund Burke
    Nothing is so fatal to religion as indifference.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PatriotG View Post
    I have been on a rampage lately trying to explain to people at the major financial institution where I work that the FED is not part of the government and money gets created out of thin air. Its like spitting into the wind.
    I just had a rather lengthy conversation here at work with someone regarding what was going on with the bailout. They're against it but only because it didn't have enough REGULATIONS. I repeated several times that if we weren't creating money from nothing (the federal reserve) there wouldn't be any need for the extra regulation.

    At the risk of sounding repetitive... "But these go to 11."
    We have two major parties [in America], the stupid party and the evil party. Every once in a while they manage to work together and we call it "bipartisanship".
    ~Thomas Woods, Rally for the Republic

  27. #24
    bump
    http://www.ronpaul2012.com/
    Quote Originally Posted by GK Chesterton
    It is often supposed that when people stop believing in God, they believe in nothing. Alas, it is worse than that. When they stop believing in God, they believe in anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rt. Hon. Edmund Burke
    Nothing is so fatal to religion as indifference.



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  29. #25
    As Will Rogers noted, we have to do more than point out what's wrong with what we have. We have to offer something better. And the best way to lead is not to run around screaming 'follow me', but to start out moving in the right direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  30. #26
    Don't look now, but they're talking about world economic socialism. The best way to foil them is to offer actual, functional free market alternatives.

    And we had better hurry.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  31. #27
    Opportunity knocks.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  32. #28
    The heart of the problem can be summed up with the question, "Where does the money come from to pay the interest on the loan?"

    The money to pay the interest must be loaned into existence somewhere else in the economy.

    Unless there is some mechanism built into the system to create money free of debt in order to satisfy the interest payments, even the most "responsible" bank is part of the problem.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    Unless there is some mechanism built into the system to create money free of debt in order to satisfy the interest payments, even the most "responsible" bank is part of the problem.
    I thought that was called 'productivity'. Surely the good ol' U.S. of A. can still come up with a little of it...?
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Define Terrorist please.

    According to, well, pretty much both political parties, the other party is now guilty of Terrorism.
    Listening to the mainstream media is like standing under a power line when the birds are migrating.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    The heart of the problem can be summed up with the question, "Where does the money come from to pay the interest on the loan?"

    The money to pay the interest must be loaned into existence somewhere else in the economy.

    Unless there is some mechanism built into the system to create money free of debt in order to satisfy the interest payments, even the most "responsible" bank is part of the problem.
    The only reason you would need to get a loan in a full-reserve gold standard is because you want to open a business, which should produce enough profits to pay the interest. You can't loan money into existence without perpetuating a fraud, though you can loan out money, and new money is being put into circulation through mining.
    http://www.ronpaul2012.com/
    Quote Originally Posted by GK Chesterton
    It is often supposed that when people stop believing in God, they believe in nothing. Alas, it is worse than that. When they stop believing in God, they believe in anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rt. Hon. Edmund Burke
    Nothing is so fatal to religion as indifference.

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