Who was the Worst Anti-Liberty American of All Time? (Fun Poll)

[Galileo Galilei]

Originally Posted by Romantarchist

John Calhoun doesn't deserve to be on this list. Yes his support for slavery was very disturbing, but other than that he was just as much of a strict constructionist as Ron Paul. He was the one who got Andrew Jackson to back off on the "Tariff Of Abominations" and he criticized Jackson for remarks he made that he thought implied that the Union was more important than human liberty.

You are comparing a tariff to slavery?

[Galileo Galilei]

Originally Posted by Naraku

It actually is quite different. They were forging papers because they didn't want to fight in the war. They were perfectly fine living in the British Empire otherwise.

They were so fine with Great Britain that they voted with their feet and came to Madison & Jefferson's "Empire of Liberty".

That's bull. However, it seems you have irrationally romantic notions about post-Revolutionary America so it is no surprise.

I said Jefferson and Madison were idealistic do-gooders who confronted reality. I did not say all of post-revolutionary America was idealistic do-gooders.

We also were not victorious in the War of 1812, the British kicked our asses.

Key American Victories in the War of 1812 (43):

1811 (1)

Battle of Tippecanoe
Part of Tecumseh's War/War of 1812
Date November 7, 1811
Location near modern Battle Ground, Indiana
Result United States victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tippecanoe

1812 (7)

USS Constitution vs HMS Guerriere
Date 19 August 1812
Location Atlantic Ocean
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Con..._HMS_Guerriere

Siege of Fort Wayne
Date September 5 – September 12, 1812
Location Fort Wayne, Indiana
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Wayne

Battle of Fort Harrison
Date September 4 – September 15, 1812
Location Terre Haute, Indiana
Result United States victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Harrison

Raid on Gananoque
September 21, 1812
Gananoque, Ontario
the Americans seized the stores and burned the government depot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Gananoque

Capture of HMS Frolic
USS Wasp captures the HMS FrolicThe capture of HMS Frolic was a naval action fought in the Atlantic of the coast of Virginia on October 18, 1812, between sloops-of-war USS Wasp, commanded by Jacob Jones, and HMS Frolic. The result was an American victory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_HMS_Frolic

USS United States vs HMS Macedonian
Date 25 October 1812
Location Atlantic Ocean
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Uni...HMS_Macedonian

HMS Java vs USS Constitution
Date 29 December 1812
Location off the coast of Brazil
Result Captured and burned by the USS Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Java_(1811)

1813 (14)

Raid on Elizabethtown
Date February 7, 1813
Location Elizabethtown
Result Successful American Raid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Elizabethtown

Sinking of HMS Peacock
The sinking of HMS Peacock was a naval action fought in the Atlantic off the mouth of the Demerara River, Guiana on February 24, 1813, between the brigs USS Hornet and HMS Peacock. After an exchange of broadsides during which the British vessel's commander was killed, the Peacock attempted to disengage but was pursued by the Hornet and succumbed to raking fire, sinking swiftly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_HMS_Peacock

Battle of York
Date 27 April, 1813
Location Present day Toronto, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York

Siege of Fort Meigs
Date 28 April – 9 May, 1813
Location present-day Perrysburg, Ohio
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Meigs

Battle of Fort George
Date May 25 – May 27, 1813
Location Present day Niagara on the Lake, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_George

Battle of Sacket's Harbor
Date 28 May – 29 May, 1813
Location Sackett's Harbor, New York
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...ett%27s_Harbor

Battle of Craney Island
Date June 22, 1813
Location Portsmouth, Virginia
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Craney_Island

Battle of Fort Stephenson
Date August 2, 1813
Location Sandusky County, Ohio
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Stephenson

Battle of St. Michaels
Date August 10, 1813
Location St. Michaels, Maryland
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_St._Michaels

Capture of HMS Boxer
Date 5 September 1813
Location off Pemaquid Point, near Bristol, Maine
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_HMS_Boxer

Battle of Lake Erie
Date 10 September, 1813
Location Lake Erie, near Put-in-Bay, Ohio
Result Decisive American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Erie

Battle of the Thames
Date October 5, 1813
Location Near Moravian of the Thames First Nation in present day Chatham-Kent, Ontario
Result Decisive American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Thames

Battle of Tallushatchee
Date November 3, 1813
Location Mississippi Territory
Result U.S. victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tallushatchee

Battle of Talladega
Date November 9, 1813
Location Mississippi Territory
Result U.S. victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talladega

1814 (17)

Battle of Longwoods
Date 4 March, 1814
Location near Wardsville in present day Southwest Middlesex, Ontario
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Longwoods

Battle of Horseshoe Bend
Date March 27, 1814
Location near Dadeville, Alabama
Result Decisive U.S. - Indian victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...hoe_Bend_(1814

Capture of HMS Epervier
The capture of HMS Epervier was a naval action fought off Cape Canaveral, Florida on April 29, 1814 between the sloop-of-war USS Peacock and the brig HMS Epervier in which the Epervier was captured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_HMS_Epervier

Raid on Port Dover
Date 14 May - 16 May, 1814
Location Port Dover, Norfolk County, Ontario
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Port_Dover

Battle of Big Sandy Creek
Date May 29 – May 30, 1814
Location Sandy Creek (town), New York
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Big_Sandy_Creek

Capture of Fort Erie
Date July 3, 1814
Location Fort Erie, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Fort_Erie

Battle of Chippawa
Date July 5, 1814
Location Chippawa, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chippawa

Battle of Caulk’s Field
Date August 31, 1814
Location near Fairlee, Maryland
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caulk%27s_Field

Battle of Plattsburgh
Date September 6 – September 11, 1814
Location Plattsburgh, New York
Result Decisive American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plattsburgh

Battle of North Point
Date September 12, 1814
Location North Point, Maryland
Result Strategic American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_North_Point

Battle of Baltimore
Date September 12 – September 15, 1814
Location Baltimore, Maryland
Result Decisive American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baltimore

The First Battle of Fort Bowyer
Date September 14-16, 1814
Location Fort Bowyer, Alabama
The defeat at Fort Bowyer led the British to decide to attack New Orleans instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bowyer

Siege of Fort Erie
Date 4 August – 21 September, 1814
Location Fort Erie, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Erie

Battle of Malcolm’s Mills
Date November 6, 1814
Location Oakland, Brant County, Ontario
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...colm%27s_Mills

Battle of Pensacola
Date November 7 – November 9, 1814
Location Pensacola, Florida
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pensacola_(1814)

Battle of Farnham Church
Date December 6, 1814
Location Farnham Church, Virginia
Result United States victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Farnham_Church

Action of 13 December 1814
Date December 13, 1814
Location near Lake Borgne, Louisiana
Result U.S. victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_...siana_Campaign)

1815 (4)

Battle of New Orleans
Date December 23 - January 8, 1815
Location About five miles (8 km) south of New Orleans on the grounds of Chalmette Plantation
Result American victory; British troops and fleet withdraw from Louisiana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_New_Orleans

Siege of Fort St. Philip
Date January 9-18, 1815
Location Fort St. Philip, Louisiana
Result U.S. victory, British flee after failing to reduce the fort.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_o...._Philip_(1815)

Capture of Cyane
HMS Cyane was a British warship captured by the USS Constitution on 20 February 1815 during the War of 1812. Cyane was sailing in company with HMS Levant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Cyane

Capture of HMS Penguin
On March 23, 1815 USS Hornet captured HMS Penguin in a short battle off Tristan da Cunha. This was one of several naval engagements which took place after the War of 1812 had ended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_HMS_Penguin

Again, the president need not violate the Constitution, issue war propaganda, suspend habeas corpus, intern people of a minority race, shut down newspapers, etc, to win a major war.

This is why James Madison is a defender of liberty, while Wilson and FDR are enemies of liberty.

[Bucjason]

Originally Posted by Live_Free_Or_Die

Everyone knows the evils of slavery. It has little to do with whether slavery is right or wrong. It is a matter of principle.

Is this your constitutional argument?

1787: This is the supreme law of the land and it does not prohibit slavery.
1861: We know what the supreme law of the land has been for the past 74 years However we are a new generation and now that we are in power and we don't care what the law is. We know we do not have enough support to obtain a Constitutional amendment so we are going to impose our moral code and will upon you. By force if necessary.

What is the difference between that and health care? Or any other constitutional argument for that matter. If you believe national health care requires an amendment then you should also believe slavery required one instead of fighting a civil war to impose one. It is about the consistency of law. To amend the law with a proper amendment is one thing but to throw the law out the window is something entirely different.

If you do not support health care because it is not constitutional I can make a principled intellectual argument that you are no better than the people who supported slavery because they argued the same thing. This is one of the reasons the constitution is a failure. No moral consistency.

The Constitution starts with:


It was the Declaration of Independence that stated:


If there is one thing that is perfectly clear from statist history it is might makes right not following the law.

Do you really believe the constitution makes it legal to ENSLAVE your neighbor and deny him every human right the constitution grants YOU?? Are you serious ?? Can you not see the difference between not garanteeing a service , like Health care, and denying another human being EVERY bit of freedom he supposedly has a right to in the declaration of independence???

In my opinion , this paragragh alone justifies the civil war:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Even if you disagree , placing Linclon 1st overall is idiotic , IMO.

"Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors. " - Abraham Lincoln

"In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free - honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just - a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless." - Abraham Lincoln

[RonPaulFanInGA]

Originally Posted by Bucjason

If there are certain states violating the human rights of American citizens and ENSLAVING them , isn't it one of the few justified powers of the federal government to stop that?? Isn't ending slavery something that is worth fighting and dying for if you claim to be a lover of liberty??

Lincoln didn't invade the south over slavery. The first major battle was in July 1861 and ending slavery in the rebelling states (meaning the four slave-holding union states were exempt) didn't become a war goal until after Sharpsburg in September 1862.

Lincoln argued very thoroughly in his March 4, 1861 inaugural address that he had no intention of ending slavery in the states where it existed.

[Bucjason]

Originally Posted by RonPaulFanInGA

Lincoln didn't invade the south over slavery. The first major battle was in July 1861 and ending slavery in the rebelling states (meaning the four slave-holding union states were exempt) didn't become a war goal until after Sharpsburg in September 1862.

Lincoln argued very thoroughly in his March 4, 1861 inaugural address that he had no intention of ending slavery in the states where it existed.

I realize this is the justification the pro-confederacy people use. The fact remains that slavery was in violation of the Declaration and everything the Union was founded on to begin with ( equal rights , liberty ,etc.). The fact also remains that , no matter what Lincoln said BEFORE the war to try and avoid it , AFTER the war he DID end slavery. Slavery is as ANTI-liberty and ANTI-libertarian as you can possibly get, so ranking him #1 overall is bullshit. End of Story and unarguable , IMO.

[Justinjj1]

Originally Posted by Bucjason

I realize this is the justification the pro-confederacy people use. The fact remains that slavery was in violation of the Declaration and everything the Union was founded on to begin with ( equal rights , liberty ,etc.). The fact also remains that , no matter what Lincoln said BEFORE the war to try and avoid it , AFTER the war he DID end slavery. Slavery is as ANTI-liberty and ANTI-libertarian as you can possibly get, so ranking him #1 overall is bullshit. End of Story and unarguable , IMO.

+1

[johnrocks]

I think it would be easier to pick a beautiful call girl in a Nevada Brothel than picking the number one Anti-Liberty American from that list.

[Son of Detroit]

Why is Hamilton beating Obama? Sure he was a big federalist, but Obama is x10.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Originally Posted by Bucjason

I realize this is the justification the pro-confederacy people use. The fact remains that slavery was in violation of the Declaration and everything the Union was founded on to begin with ( equal rights , liberty ,etc.). The fact also remains that , no matter what Lincoln said BEFORE the war to try and avoid it , AFTER the war he DID end slavery. Slavery is as ANTI-liberty and ANTI-libertarian as you can possibly get, so ranking him #1 overall is bullshit. End of Story and unarguable , IMO.

The fact remains killing 620,000 Americans for conquest is about as anti-liberty and anti-libertarian as you can get.

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Originally Posted by Son of Detroit

Why is Hamilton beating Obama? Sure he was a big federalist, but Obama is x10.

Hamilton proposed a permenant President. He also proposed mercantilism, imperialism, and empire. On top of that, Hamilton subverted the AoC, by hastily calling for a Convention that was supposedly for amending the AoC not abolishing it. Hamilton also called for a Central Banking system. Upon more numerous violations of everything the Revolution stood for. As an aside, he also called for changing the sovereign states into provinces whereby governors would be appointed by the permenant President and the President could veto anything and everything the Governor did. He advocated for the monarchical and tyrannous Government we just fought against.

The top 3:

#1 General Sherman
#2 Abraham Lincoln
#3 Alexander Hamilton