Lost rights

[hvac ak47]

What rights have we lost? Talking with someone who says we have not lost any rights. Ive allready mentioned the patriot act but he keeps saying name 2 people who have lost their rights. I keep saying we all lost rights with the patriot act. Can anyone here give me specific examples were someone lost their right to do something.

[Vvick727]

During mid-July, this executive order by Bush was passed.

Technically, you can be arrested for speaking out against the "stabilization" efforts in Iraq.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0070717-3.html

Just one example that came to mind.

[Dustancostine]

Andrew Meyers in Florida was tasered yesterday for asking a question.

[Bradley in DC]

Originally Posted by hvac ak47

What rights have we lost? Talking with someone who says we have not lost any rights. Ive allready mentioned the patriot act but he keeps saying name 2 people who have lost their rights. I keep saying we all lost rights with the patriot act. Can anyone here give me specific examples were someone lost their right to do something.

Hi hvac (you work on air conditioners?),

There are lots of examples: following the adoption of rules pursuant to Title III of the USA PATRIOT Act, many money service businesses shut their doors since the new regulations made their companies unprofitable (the poor were the ones most affected who have now turned to payday loan businesses in their place); the regulations had to be modified to keep the businesses afloat.

You are paying higher costs for the compliance of the new regulations in finance, travel, communications, data/internet, etc. The marginal effect of some of those changes has cut off access to some.

The Inspector General of the FBI put out a report citing over 1,000 abuses of the law just by that agency just on one provision (NSLs).

http://www.eff.org/flag/07656JDB/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030802356.html

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/nationa...g20070320.html

All of this was predicted by an astute observer back in 2002 (yours truly):

http://www.freecongress.org/media/2002/020627.asp

[crhoades]

Check out James Bovard's book Lost Rights

[drew1503]

Free speech zones.

[hvac ak47]

Thanks, can someone name 2 cases with peoples names that had their rights violated. Like maybe 2 cases where the government went into someones home without a warrant.

[bcmiller]

I get this argument all of the time. The idea that you have to be a victim of any or all of these laws in order to complain about the laws is an odd argument.

How can you say you were a victim of the international wiretapping law without a warrant? They did not tell you they listened to the call. Do we have to wait for the law to be enforced on us individually in order to complain about the law? These laws are made to be used and we cannot trust the government to only apply these to the "bad guys".

Here is a real world example.

Why do I have to show my driver's license when I am not driving? Why do I have to give my SSN to anyone but the SS office for SS services? The idea that this makes my identity more secure is nonsense. Look how easy it is to commit identity fraud these days.

My labor is not mine, it is the government's property. They are nice enough to let me keep the 75% they leave in my bank account.

If I do not fill out the voluntary 1040 in April eventually I will have the IRS at my door, they will take the rest of the money they used to leave in my bank account, they may take my house... I would not be guilty of a crime or even charged with a crime, but my life would be ruined and I could be sent to jail. If you don't believe me ask Ed Brown. Plus, what if I don't want the government to know how I earned my money? Why do I have to have something to hide in order to want privacy? I can't even use the 5th amendment to protect myself from self incrimination.

We should be free to make mistakes we should not need the government to wipe our nose for us... Why do we need a seatbelt law? Why should the government assume that I can't save for retirement? I am allowed to drink myself to a stupor, but I cannot take drugs. Now they are thinking of regulating herbal remedies. I would not want to take drugs if they were legal, just like I am not really a drinker, but why do we fill prisons with people who use poor judgment but hurt no one but themselves. I guess it goes back to the tax issue. My health must be the government's property now too.

The most common reason is that otherwise I would be a burden on our health care system. This brings me to my next point. Why do I have to pay for other people's health care anyway? This idea that we are all in this together and that we should be forced to pool our resources affects our freedom. If we all eat from the same tub of popcorn you have a right to meter how much I am eating.

The people who ask you "what freedoms you have lost?" feel that you are singling out the patriot act and GWB. The thing is that this usurping of freedom is a slow grind. All of these little things just build on the old laws. If you put a frog in hot water he will jump out, if you put him in cold water and slowly heat the water he will get boiled and not jump.

The patriot act is so subtle. It adds just enough to other overreaching laws to make them worse. It changes laws that call for a warrant to read, "a warrant or request from emergency assistance".... wait... a request from who? why no warrant? This should concern even people who trust the government.

[inibo]

Originally Posted by hvac ak47

Thanks, can someone name 2 cases with peoples names that had their rights violated. Like maybe 2 cases where the government went into someones home without a warrant.

One name: José Padilla. He is a U.S. citizen who was imprisoned from June 9, 2002 to January 3, 2006 without charges and without access to an attorney.

[hvac ak47]

I agree and this is how I argued it also.