Christ Accepts Whomsoever Will, Especially the Sinner

[euphemia]

What people cannot do on their own is satisfy God's demand for a perfect sacrifice for sin. Jesus did that. We accept that gift and are declared righteous. It is not for a man to judge the state of another's heart, but it is for a man to walk in obedience to God.

[Superfluous Man]

What people cannot do on their own is satisfy God's demand for a perfect sacrifice for sin. Jesus did that. We accept that gift and are declared righteous. It is not for a man to judge the state of another's heart, but it is for a man to walk in obedience to God.

People cannot accept that gift or walk in obedience to God either, apart from God's grace.

I thought you were Anglican?

[Jamesiv1]

//

[Sola_Fide]

What people cannot do on their own is satisfy God's demand for a perfect sacrifice for sin. Jesus did that. We accept that gift and are declared righteous. It is not for a man to judge the state of another's heart, but it is for a man to walk in obedience to God.

No. What people can't do is choose God:

Romans 9:16

So it is God who decides to give mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

[Anti Federalist]

If your definition of quarrelsome is simply defending the Christian faith against false religions, the Jesus and all the apostles were quarrelsome. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, they opposed standing authority.

How does that jive with Romans 13?

[Anti Federalist]

No. What people can't do is choose God:

So, we're back to that again.

LOLOLOLOLOL

[Sonny Tufts]

This doesn't make condemnation of sinners into condemnation of God for not granting them repentance, because their sins are their own. It would only be their repentance that would be credited to God were they to repent. And yes, this does mean that all credit for salvation belongs to God alone. But the opposite, that condemnation for sin committed by sinners also must be made against God, doesn't follow the way the credit to God for salvation does.

If God is all-powerful and if man has no free will (as S-F and others proclaim), then you cannot say that the sin is due to man but the repentance is due to God. Once you claim that man and not God causes sin, you are forced to admit that man has free will. But if he has ability to sin or not, why doesn't he have the ability to repent or not?

[lilymc]

This is the position that has been held by all Christianity since the very beginning.

The alternative, that man is able to obey God's commands by his own nature, is the position for which Pelagius was anathematized in the Counsel of Ephesus in 431, which both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox consider an ecumenical counsel.

It's totally inaccurate to pretend this is some offshoot sectarian idea and call it Calvinism.

You're mixing up two different topics. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did that unknowingly. I never claimed that Christians are able to successfully obey God's commands by his own nature, of course God's standard is perfection and NOBODY can do that on their own, which is precisely why everyone needs Jesus. I did a whole video on that topic, namely because a couple years ago, we had some major debates on this forum, on the topic of salvation.

That wasn't what we were talking about. We were talking about how blatantly illogical it is for someone who thinks humans have no free will (who are basically puppets on a string) to demand people to repent right after saying it's impossible for man to repent unless God does it for them.

And then get mad at them for not repenting, when you believe it's impossible for them to do so.

Do you not see the illogic and absurdity in that?

[lilymc]

What people cannot do on their own is satisfy God's demand for a perfect sacrifice for sin. Jesus did that. We accept that gift and are declared righteous. It is not for a man to judge the state of another's heart, but it is for a man to walk in obedience to God.

AMEN! Thank you for some truth!

[jmdrake]

In before S_F......

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tod evans again.

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

And don't forget his sidekick "Superflouus man." The two of them make a laughing stock of theology.

[lilymc]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tod evans again.

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

And don't forget his sidekick "Superflouus man." The two of them make a laughing stock of theology.

I'm so glad you're back! I was getting tired of dealing with the absurdity here, I need to pass the baton.

[jmdrake]

I'm so glad you're back! I was getting tired of dealing with the absurdity here, I need to pass the baton.

I'm glad other people are hitting it. Last couple of times I engaged S_F and S_M (and to a smaller extent C_L) it seemed I was on my own. Anyway, they're broken records and really shouldn't be taken seriously at this point.

[heavenlyboy34]

This is the position that has been held by all Christianity since the very beginning.

The alternative, that man is able to obey God's commands by his own nature, is the position for which Pelagius was anathematized in the Counsel of Ephesus in 431, which both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox consider an ecumenical counsel.

It's totally inaccurate to pretend this is some offshoot sectarian idea and call it Calvinism.

Not quite. (you are correct that Pelagius was a heretic, I admit)

THE FREE WILL OF MAN ACCORDING TO THE HOLY ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CHURCH
Image and likeness. According to most of the holy Greek Fathers, the terms image and likeness do not mean exactly the same thing. 'The expression "according to the image," wrote Saint John of Damascus, 'indicates rationality and freedom, while the expression "according to the likeness" indicates assimilation to God through virtue (On the Orthodox Faith, 2, 12 (P.G. 94, 920B). The image, or to use the Greek term the icon, of God signifies man's free will, his reason, his sense of moral responsibility--everything, in short, which marks man out from the animal creation and makes him a person.
Grace and free will. As we have seen, writes His Eminence Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, "the fact that man is in God's image means among other things that he possesses free will. God wanted a son, not a slave. The Orthodox Church rejects any doctrine of grace which might seem to infringe upon man's freedom. To describe the relation between the grace of God and free will of man, Orthodoxy uses the term cooperation or synergy (synergeia); in Saint Paul's words: "We are fellow-workers (synergoi) with God" (1 Corinthians 3:9). If a man is to achieve full communion (fellowship) with God, he cannot do so without God's help, yet he must also play his own part: man as well as God must make his contribution to the common work, although what God does is of immeasurably greater importance than what man does. The incorporation of man into Christ and his union with god require the cooperation of two unequal, but equally necessary forces: divine grace and human will. (A Monk of the Eastern Church, Orthodox Spiritualit, p. 23). The supreme example of synergy is the Mother of God (see p. 263).
The West (The Latin Church), since time of Augustine and the Pelagian controversy, has discussed this question of grace and free will in somewhat different terms; and many brought up in the Augustinian tradition--particularly Calvanists (Protestants)--have viewed the Orthodox belief of 'synergy' with some suspicion. Does it not ascribe too much to man's free will, and too little to God? Yet in reality the Orthodox teaching is very straightforward, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in" (Revelation 3:20). God knocks, but waits for man to open the door--He does not break it down. The grace of God invites all but compels none. In the words of Saint John Chrysostom: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no on" (Sermon on the words 'Saul, Saul...). 'It is for God to grant His grace,' said Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died 386 A.D.); "your task is to accept that grace and to guard it" (Catechetical Orations, 1, 4). But it must not be imagined that because a man accepts and guards God's grace, he thereby earns 'merit'. God's gifts are free gifts, and man can never have any claims upon his maker. But man, while he cannot 'merit' salvation, must certainly work for it, since "faith without works is dead" (St. James 2:17).
God gave Adam free will--the power to choose between good and evil--and it therefore rested with Adam either to accept the vocation set before him or to refuse it. He refused it. Instead of continuing along the path marked out for him by God, he turned aside and disobeyed God. Adam's fall consisted essentially in his disobedience of the will of God; he set up his own will against the Divine Will, and so by his own act he separated himself from God. As a result, a new form of existence appeared on earth--that of disease and death."
"The Orthodox teaching of salvation is based on the doctrine of free will. In his fall man did not lose his free will. Man could still choose to be with God or without Him--he just could not move by himself back towards God, as the path was closed by the "ancestral" or "original sin."
Christ cleared that path, and now our salvation is the matter solely of our choice. God honors our choice--whatever it is. This is the reason God does not make demons disappear: God respects their free will, as free will is a feature of divinity (that, unfortunately, can be misused.) We are saved through cooperation of our will with God's--called synergy in Orthodox Christian theology--the doctrine famously expressed by Saint Athanasius the Great as "God does not save us without us." Christ Himself promised His response to those seeking His help: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" (St. Matthew 7:7-8).
On the other hand, God does not force salvation on anyone: otherwise, this would not be "salvation" but rather His re-making us into something that contradicts His Own original design of us. First He made us in His image and now He "saves" us by taking His image away from us and essentially equating us with all other living creatures? When Saint John Chrysostom was asked why not everybody is saved, he said, "Because you yourselves do not want to [be saved]. Even though the grace is indeed the grace, and it saves, it only saves those who desire it, but not those who do not want it and turn away from it." Likewise, the Dread Judgment is dread not because someone will be put in hell against his will--but because that will be the final self-determination of each human.
"The grace of God does not enslave the conscience and freedom of man-but, having revealed to him the love of God and the horror of sin, it leaves it up to man to strive towards this love and...communion with it."
Philosophers commonly disagree about the definition of free will and the human capacity to use it. Some have said that man is a machine, who must follow the laws of his nature, therefore, he is neither free to choose between good and evil (whatever they are) nor even between things. Even if he could overcome the laws of nature, he would, as some ancient Greek philosophers said, be subject to "fate" whose decisions be fulfilled. Thus, choice is a delusion.
Augustine, the 5th century Bishop of Hippo, seems to have adapted the Greek idea of fate. When discussing "predestination", that is, before the creation of the world, God decided who would live with Him forever, and those who would dwell in penal fire for eternity. Augustine called those whom God has predestined to heaven, the Elect, and to hell, the Reprobate. Thus, only the Elect have the ability to choose between good and evil, for they alone have been given the grace to make such choices. This belief of Augustine is contrary to the teachings of the Church which teaches, in the words of Saint John of Damascus, that God "knows all things beforehand, but He does not predetermine them. Although He knows what is in our power, He does not predetermine it." Man is free because he was created in "the image of God."
Augustine of Hippo taught that "original sin" makes it impossible for us to choose between good and evil and, therefore, to take any part in our salvation. Before the creation of the world, God knew that Adam would fall and plunge his posterity into sin, death and corruption. Knowing this, God predestined some to salvation, others to damnation. Why He decided to save some and not others, we cannot know. To the chosen few, the Elect, He imposed grace irresistibly. They have the ability to choose between good and evil. The rest of the human race deludes itself by thinking that it has the same choices. Augustine of course was wrong and his belief was and is in error.
Contrary to Augustine, the Grace of God is not arbitrarily forced upon some and denied to others. Grace is freely given, freely received. To quote Saint Faustus of Riez:
"We, however, maintain that whosoever is lost is lost by his own fault; yet, he could have obtained salvation through grace had he cooperated with it; and, on the other hand, whoever through grace attains to perfection by means of cooperation (synergy), might nevertheless, through his own fault, his own negligence, fall and be lost. We exclude, of course, all personal pride, since we insist that all we possess has been freely received from the Hand of God." (Concerning Grace, 1)
And finally, Saint John Cassian asserts:
"These two, namely, grace and free will, although they seem opposed, in fact are complementary...Were we to deny the one or the other, we would appear to have abandoned the Faith of the Church." (Conversations with the Desert Fathers, 18)
Philosophers cannot help us know whether we have free will. They do not agree among themselves. Their theories, based on unproven assumptions, are open to serious criticism. Also religious doctrine about predestination and fate only put the blame for evil on God and deprive human beings of praise and blame for their choices, for their vice and virtue. The knowledge of free will comes by faith and experience. God created man in His Image, which means that man has free will. The freedom which has been implanted by God in created human nature is curtailed only by sin and ignorance. Without freedom life is meaningless. (Father Michael Azkoul, "An Introduction to the Orthodox Christian Understanding of Free Will).
+++
The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
With sincere agape in His Holy Diakonia,
The sinner and unworthy servant of God
+Father George


http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2014/...-christia.html

[Superfluous Man]

Not quite. (you are correct that Pelagius was a heretic, I admit)

That was my whole point. So how was I not quite right? And what did the rest of your wall of text have to do with it?

[TER]

Thank you for this informative post!

Not quite. (you are correct that Pelagius was a heretic, I admit)

THE FREE WILL OF MAN ACCORDING TO THE HOLY ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN CHURCH
Image and likeness. According to most of the holy Greek Fathers, the terms image and likeness do not mean exactly the same thing. 'The expression "according to the image," wrote Saint John of Damascus, 'indicates rationality and freedom, while the expression "according to the likeness" indicates assimilation to God through virtue (On the Orthodox Faith, 2, 12 (P.G. 94, 920B). The image, or to use the Greek term the icon, of God signifies man's free will, his reason, his sense of moral responsibility--everything, in short, which marks man out from the animal creation and makes him a person.

Grace and free will. As we have seen, writes His Eminence Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, "the fact that man is in God's image means among other things that he possesses free will. God wanted a son, not a slave. The Orthodox Church rejects any doctrine of grace which might seem to infringe upon man's freedom. To describe the relation between the grace of God and free will of man, Orthodoxy uses the term cooperation or synergy (synergeia); in Saint Paul's words: "We are fellow-workers (synergoi) with God" (1 Corinthians 3:9). If a man is to achieve full communion (fellowship) with God, he cannot do so without God's help, yet he must also play his own part: man as well as God must make his contribution to the common work, although what God does is of immeasurably greater importance than what man does. The incorporation of man into Christ and his union with god require the cooperation of two unequal, but equally necessary forces: divine grace and human will. (A Monk of the Eastern Church, Orthodox Spiritualit, p. 23). The supreme example of synergy is the Mother of God (see p. 263).

The West (The Latin Church), since time of Augustine and the Pelagian controversy, has discussed this question of grace and free will in somewhat different terms; and many brought up in the Augustinian tradition--particularly Calvanists (Protestants)--have viewed the Orthodox belief of 'synergy' with some suspicion. Does it not ascribe too much to man's free will, and too little to God? Yet in reality the Orthodox teaching is very straightforward, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in" (Revelation 3:20). God knocks, but waits for man to open the door--He does not break it down. The grace of God invites all but compels none. In the words of Saint John Chrysostom: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no on" (Sermon on the words 'Saul, Saul...). 'It is for God to grant His grace,' said Saint Cyril of Jerusalem (died 386 A.D.); "your task is to accept that grace and to guard it" (Catechetical Orations, 1, 4). But it must not be imagined that because a man accepts and guards God's grace, he thereby earns 'merit'. God's gifts are free gifts, and man can never have any claims upon his maker. But man, while he cannot 'merit' salvation, must certainly work for it, since "faith without works is dead" (St. James 2:17).

God gave Adam free will--the power to choose between good and evil--and it therefore rested with Adam either to accept the vocation set before him or to refuse it. He refused it. Instead of continuing along the path marked out for him by God, he turned aside and disobeyed God. Adam's fall consisted essentially in his disobedience of the will of God; he set up his own will against the Divine Will, and so by his own act he separated himself from God. As a result, a new form of existence appeared on earth--that of disease and death."

"The Orthodox teaching of salvation is based on the doctrine of free will. In his fall man did not lose his free will. Man could still choose to be with God or without Him--he just could not move by himself back towards God, as the path was closed by the "ancestral" or "original sin."

Christ cleared that path, and now our salvation is the matter solely of our choice. God honors our choice--whatever it is. This is the reason God does not make demons disappear: God respects their free will, as free will is a feature of divinity (that, unfortunately, can be misused.) We are saved through cooperation of our will with God's--called synergy in Orthodox Christian theology--the doctrine famously expressed by Saint Athanasius the Great as "God does not save us without us." Christ Himself promised His response to those seeking His help: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened" (St. Matthew 7:7-8).

On the other hand, God does not force salvation on anyone: otherwise, this would not be "salvation" but rather His re-making us into something that contradicts His Own original design of us. First He made us in His image and now He "saves" us by taking His image away from us and essentially equating us with all other living creatures? When Saint John Chrysostom was asked why not everybody is saved, he said, "Because you yourselves do not want to [be saved]. Even though the grace is indeed the grace, and it saves, it only saves those who desire it, but not those who do not want it and turn away from it." Likewise, the Dread Judgment is dread not because someone will be put in hell against his will--but because that will be the final self-determination of each human.

"The grace of God does not enslave the conscience and freedom of man-but, having revealed to him the love of God and the horror of sin, it leaves it up to man to strive towards this love and...communion with it."

Philosophers commonly disagree about the definition of free will and the human capacity to use it. Some have said that man is a machine, who must follow the laws of his nature, therefore, he is neither free to choose between good and evil (whatever they are) nor even between things. Even if he could overcome the laws of nature, he would, as some ancient Greek philosophers said, be subject to "fate" whose decisions be fulfilled. Thus, choice is a delusion.

Augustine, the 5th century Bishop of Hippo, seems to have adapted the Greek idea of fate. When discussing "predestination", that is, before the creation of the world, God decided who would live with Him forever, and those who would dwell in penal fire for eternity. Augustine called those whom God has predestined to heaven, the Elect, and to hell, the Reprobate. Thus, only the Elect have the ability to choose between good and evil, for they alone have been given the grace to make such choices. This belief of Augustine is contrary to the teachings of the Church which teaches, in the words of Saint John of Damascus, that God "knows all things beforehand, but He does not predetermine them. Although He knows what is in our power, He does not predetermine it." Man is free because he was created in "the image of God."

Augustine of Hippo taught that "original sin" makes it impossible for us to choose between good and evil and, therefore, to take any part in our salvation. Before the creation of the world, God knew that Adam would fall and plunge his posterity into sin, death and corruption. Knowing this, God predestined some to salvation, others to damnation. Why He decided to save some and not others, we cannot know. To the chosen few, the Elect, He imposed grace irresistibly. They have the ability to choose between good and evil. The rest of the human race deludes itself by thinking that it has the same choices. Augustine of course was wrong and his belief was and is in error.
Contrary to Augustine, the Grace of God is not arbitrarily forced upon some and denied to others. Grace is freely given, freely received. To quote Saint Faustus of Riez:

"We, however, maintain that whosoever is lost is lost by his own fault; yet, he could have obtained salvation through grace had he cooperated with it; and, on the other hand, whoever through grace attains to perfection by means of cooperation (synergy), might nevertheless, through his own fault, his own negligence, fall and be lost. We exclude, of course, all personal pride, since we insist that all we possess has been freely received from the Hand of God." (Concerning Grace, 1)

And finally, Saint John Cassian asserts:

"These two, namely, grace and free will, although they seem opposed, in fact are complementary...Were we to deny the one or the other, we would appear to have abandoned the Faith of the Church." (Conversations with the Desert Fathers, 18)

Philosophers cannot help us know whether we have free will. They do not agree among themselves. Their theories, based on unproven assumptions, are open to serious criticism. Also religious doctrine about predestination and fate only put the blame for evil on God and deprive human beings of praise and blame for their choices, for their vice and virtue. The knowledge of free will comes by faith and experience. God created man in His Image, which means that man has free will. The freedom which has been implanted by God in created human nature is curtailed only by sin and ignorance. Without freedom life is meaningless. (Father Michael Azkoul, "An Introduction to the Orthodox Christian Understanding of Free Will).

+++

The Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
With sincere agape in His Holy Diakonia,
The sinner and unworthy servant of God
+Father George


http://saintandrewgoc.org/home/2014/...-christia.html

[Superfluous Man]

I never claimed that Christians are able to successfully obey God's commands by his own nature

It seemed obvious that your point about saying that SF's position was one of claiming that God commands people to do what is impossible for them to do was to disagree with him about that.

If you actually agree with him about that, then why have you been trying to argue against him this whole time?

We were talking about how blatantly illogical it is for someone who thinks humans have no free will (who are basically puppets on a string) to demand people to repent right after saying it's impossible for man to repent unless God does it for them.

And then get mad at them for not repenting, when you believe it's impossible for them to do so.

Do you not see the illogic and absurdity in that?

I don't see the absurdity in it. No. And, as I said, it is the position of all of Christianity since the beginning. Pelagius was anathematized for making the exact argument that you are making.

[euphemia]

I think it is easy to forget that man is made in God's image, and I think that means with the ability to feel, think, act, and have relationships. Otherwise, it seems like God took a pretty big risk and went to a lot of trouble if only a few belong to him.

[Superfluous Man]

Once you claim that man and not God causes sin, you are forced to admit that man has free will.

I can't even comprehend the concept of free will. I honestly can't tell what you mean when you use the phrase. And I certainly don't see how saying that man causes sin forces anyone to admit that man has free will.

Certainly, whatever a man causes, he causes as a proximate cause, not an ultimate cause. A man causes X. Something prior caused that man to cause X. Something else caused that prior cause. And so on, until you finally get back to the one uncaused first cause.

The alternative is to say that somewhere else within that chain of causation something just happens without any cause. That's not what you mean by "free will" is it? That human decisions simply happen without any cause?

In fact, if that is what you mean, then it seems to me that it would be that kind of so-called free will that would render man not responsible for his choices, since they would arise without cause, rather than being caused by a man according to his nature, so as to be truly his.

[Superfluous Man]

I think it is easy to forget that man is made in God's image, and I think that means with the ability to feel, think, act, and have relationships. Otherwise, it seems like God took a pretty big risk and went to a lot of trouble if only a few belong to him.

Why do you believe that those things are what being in God's image entails?

I don't think that any of the biblical passages that refer to being made in God's image mention those things. Do they?

And don't animals that aren't made in God's image and likeness also think, feel, act, and have relationships?

[lilymc]

I don't see the absurdity in it. No. And, as I said, it is the position of all of Christianity since the beginning. Pelagius was anathematized for making the exact argument that you are making.

You're totally misrepresenting my position, and you are purposely avoiding my questions, except for in a very superficial, side-stepping way.

I'm sorry, but I have to be direct here. I think you are either being disingenuous, or blind. I'm not sure which.

[Superfluous Man]

You're totally misrepresenting my position, and you are purposely avoiding my questions, except for in a very superficial, side-stepping way.

I'm sorry, but I have to be direct here. I think you are either being disingenuous, or blind. I'm not sure which.

I don't see how you can say I'm avoiding your questions. I only see one question in the post of yours that I was replying to. You asked if I thought that it was absurd for God to condemn people for failing to obey him if they are not capable of doing so. And I gave you a very direct answer to that, right in the quote you gave of me. I do not think it's absurd.

I also don't see how I'm misrepresenting you. Do you believe that God does command people to do what is impossible for them to do and then condemns them for that?

If you do not believe that, then your position is just what I said. It is Pelagianism. I did not misrepresent it.

If you do believe that, then it's you who have failed to represent your own position accurately. Because you have made it look like you believe that it would be absurd for God to do that.

[Superfluous Man]

Yes, they opposed standing authority.

How does that jive with Romans 13?

It jives with Romans 13 fine.


Romans 13 teaches us that it's prudent to obey the powers because they wield the sword. This doesn't mean that we have a moral duty always to obey them. But we do need to count the cost of disobeying them and ask if it's really worth our lives. Jesus and the apostles counted that cost, and at the end of the day they chose to accept death at the hands of tyrants rather than obey them.

On the other hand, there were plenty of other occasions where they did obey unjust laws because those hills weren't the ones they wanted to die on.

What Romans 13 teaches is essentially the same advice as recommending a victim of a mugging at the hands of an armed robber to give up their money rather than their life. It is a pragmatic position.

[Sola_Fide]

You're totally misrepresenting my position, and you are purposely avoiding my questions, except for in a very superficial, side-stepping way.

I'm sorry, but I have to be direct here. I think you are either being disingenuous, or blind. I'm not sure which.

Can man do what God commands him? Yes or no?

[lilymc]

Can man do what God commands him? Yes or no?

I'm taking God's advice (in Proverbs and other places) and not dealing with you anymore. You butcher the character of God, and disobey Him almost every time you open your mouth. How many times have you been banned now?

[TER]

It jives with Romans 13 fine.


Romans 13 teaches us that it's prudent to obey the powers because they wield the sword. This doesn't mean that we have a moral duty always to obey them. But we do need to count the cost of disobeying them and ask if it's really worth our lives. Jesus and the apostles counted that cost, and at the end of the day they chose to accept death at the hands of tyrants rather than obey them.

On the other hand, there were plenty of other occasions where they did obey unjust laws because those hills weren't the ones they wanted to die on.

What Romans 13 teaches is essentially the same advice as recommending a victim of a mugging at the hands of an armed robber to give up their money rather than their life. It is a pragmatic position.

This is a good post.

[pcosmar]

Can man do what God commands him? Yes or no?

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

[Sola_Fide]

I'm taking God's advice (in Proverbs and other places) and not dealing with you anymore. You butcher the character of God, and disobey Him almost every time you open your mouth. How many times have you been banned now?

And again, this is just another personal insult that has nothing to do with the question.

Can man do what God commands him? Yes or no?

Why would that be difficult or injurious for you to answer?

[Sola_Fide]

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

What is Paul talking about in Phillipians 4 Pete? Have you ever read the chapter to see what he is talking about? Because it has nothing to do with man's will in salvation.

[donnay]

It jives with Romans 13 fine.


Romans 13 teaches us that it's prudent to obey the powers because they wield the sword. This doesn't mean that we have a moral duty always to obey them. But we do need to count the cost of disobeying them and ask if it's really worth our lives. Jesus and the apostles counted that cost, and at the end of the day they chose to accept death at the hands of tyrants rather than obey them.

On the other hand, there were plenty of other occasions where they did obey unjust laws because those hills weren't the ones they wanted to die on.

What Romans 13 teaches is essentially the same advice as recommending a victim of a mugging at the hands of an armed robber to give up their money rather than their life. It is a pragmatic position.

Romans 13 is pretty clear:

Romans 13 (KJV)

13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Do Christians Have to Obey the Laws of the Land?

By: Brandon T. Ward

As we march further toward the final hours of this age of flesh we now see the rights of Christians in this once blessed nation being removed. Which begs the question, as Christians are we to obey the laws of the land? We will get to that in a moment. But let us back up to July 27th 2015 when a major benchmark was set on our Father’s time clock. We saw a ruling come down from the Supreme Court stating homosexual marriage should be legal in all fifty states. Now let me point out, the Supreme Court does not make laws, they simply offer an opinion of them. Yet the government has enforced an opinion as law and claims the Supreme Court ruling means homosexual marriage must now be legalized by the fifty states. Let me ask you, what is the law of this land? The Constitution of course. So what does it say regarding the right of the states?

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” – Tenth Amendment

It does not become any clearer than this. The states have the right to decide for themselves whether or not they will allow homosexual marriage or any other law for that matter. Yet man, meaning the government in power assaults the law which they have been sworn to uphold.

Now having laid this out, what does God’s Word say about men obeying their governments? Please turn your Bible with me to,

Romans 13:1
1 “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”

It is our Father who sets up kings and who also removes them (Daniel 2:21). Now while God is in control of the world He has given Satan power over it to fulfill the negative part of God’s plan.

Romans 13:2
2 “Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.”

Now Romans 13 is quoted by just about every Pastor out there as proof Christians should do as they are told by their government. However, if you are a student of our Father’s Word you know there is always an if or a condition that applies. Please turn your Bible with me to,

2 Samuel 23:3
3 “The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.”

Read more: http://worldeventsandthebible.com/20...-the-land.html

[lilymc]

And again, this is just another personal insult that has nothing to do with the question.

Can man do what God commands him? Yes or no?

Why would that be difficult or injurious for you to answer?

I already addressed that, and if you have been hearing what I've been saying over and over from the start, you wouldn't be asking me that question.

Now, stop playing God and judging the faith of others, stop accusing people of not being Christians, stop being quarrelsome, as euphemia already said to you, stop treating people in the most prideful, condescending way with comments like "Have you ever read the chapter to see what he is talking about? " (to someone who if I'm not mistaken is an ordained pastor) and pls stop posting to me. There are certain types of people that it's pointless to argue with. Like I said yesterday though, I'll pray for you.