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Thread: Homelessness - The Libertarian Position?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If they just need rousting they are allowed to go where they wish so long as it isn't public property (other than the designated area) and if they are arrested because they keep trespassing then they go through the legal system for trespassing.
    They could be dumped at the designated area when rousted or after being released from being arrested but paying for guards to keep them there isn't a good idea from a liberty standpoint or a money standpoint.
    In other words, they get sent to a taxpayer-financed institution.

    Here's the difference between our proposals:

    Mine - upon complaint, arrest them and put them in an institution

    Yours - upon complaint, "roust and release," repeat a few times, then put them in an institution

    I'm not seeing the advantage; that's just a more convoluted and expensive way of doing the same thing.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    In other words, they get sent to a taxpayer-financed institution.

    Here's the difference between our proposals:

    Mine - upon complaint, arrest them and put them in an institution

    Yours - upon complaint, "roust and release," repeat a few times, then put them in an institution

    I'm not seeing the advantage; that's just a more convoluted and expensive way of doing the same thing.
    My way most comply voluntarily and those that don't are sent to an unpleasant institution that is already being paid for by taxpayers that will dissuade them from failing to comply voluntarily in the future.
    Your way they all go to a relatively pleasant institution that is an entirely new burden on the taxpayer.

    My way those that comply keep their rights to move to another area or change their way of life at their discretion.
    Your way they are imprisoned unless they meet state determined criteria to be allowed to leave.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    My way most comply voluntarily and those that don't are sent to an unpleasant institution that is already being paid for by taxpayers that will dissuade them from failing to comply voluntarily in the future.
    Your way they all go to a relatively pleasant institution that is an entirely new burden on the taxpayer.

    My way those that comply keep their rights to move to another area or change their way of life at their discretion.
    Your way they are imprisoned unless they meet state determined criteria to be allowed to leave.
    This plot that you have in mind, is it literally just a piece of land out in the middle of nowhere?

    No housing, food, or anything provided by the state?

    If so, what on Earth makes you think homeless people are going to go there (to starve to death) voluntarily?

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    My way most comply voluntarily and those that don't are sent to an unpleasant institution that is already being paid for by taxpayers that will dissuade them from failing to comply voluntarily in the future.
    Your way they all go to a relatively pleasant institution that is an entirely new burden on the taxpayer.

    My way those that comply keep their rights to move to another area or change their way of life at their discretion.
    Your way they are imprisoned unless they meet state determined criteria to be allowed to leave.
    You're arguing with an idiot. Don't. Shut him down like I did.

    #1 Don't live in a city where homelessness is a problem.
    #2 If you live in a city expel the homeless into another country where they will die of starvation or exposure (or simply drop them off in the middle of the Mojave or the Great Basin). It's the reason you don't see many homeless out here in the country.
    #3 Be done with this asshats arguments.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    This plot that you have in mind, is it literally just a piece of land out in the middle of nowhere?

    No housing, food, or anything provided by the state?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If so, what on Earth makes you think homeless people are going to go there (to starve to death) voluntarily?
    They won't starve, most of them will undoubtedly continue to beg, any that steal or trespass will be handled with the already existing legal system.
    They will choose to reside there (unless they change their way of life) because the alternative is to be rousted or arrested for trespassing.
    I'm also quite certain that charitable organizations will provide for them to one degree or another with varying levels of wisdom.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    You're arguing with an idiot. Don't. Shut him down like I did.

    #1 Don't live in a city where homelessness is a problem.
    #2 If you live in a city expel the homeless into another country where they will die of starvation or exposure (or simply drop them off in the middle of the Mojave or the Great Basin). It's the reason you don't see many homeless out here in the country.
    #3 Be done with this asshats arguments.
    I'm done now, I just wanted to lay out my plan clearly before I stopped.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They won't starve, most of them will undoubtedly continue to beg
    From whom? The other homeless people in the camp in the middle of nowhere?

    Homeless people congregate in cities for a reason; you won't find many in Yellowstone.

    any that steal or trespass will be handled with the already existing legal system
    ...which is going to be pretty much all of them.

    The result will be putting them in prison, rather than on a workfarm, which will cost more.

    They will choose to reside there (unless they change their way of life) because the alternative is to be rousted or arrested for trespassing.
    ...which is preferable to starving to death in Yellowstone.

    I'm also quite certain that charitable organizations will provide for them to one degree or another with varying levels of wisdom.
    This is irrelevant; the question is what to do with those who can't be taken in by charities.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post


    This is irrelevant; the question is what to do with those who can't be taken in by charities.
    Put them in the middle of Yellowstone?

  11. #39
    Swordsmyth's solution sounds reasonable, Rv3, yours sounds like an authoritarians wet dream.
    "The Patriarch"

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Swordsmyth's solution sounds reasonable, Rv3, yours sounds like an authoritarians wet dream.
    Rv3's authoritarianism bleeds through this whole thread. Why is homelessness something to solve? Quite a few homeless choose to live that way. Of course, the authoritarians will argue that "nobody wants to be homeless"; but that's just them being unwilling to accept other peoples preferences.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Swordsmyth's solution sounds reasonable, Rv3, yours sounds like an authoritarians wet dream.
    Swordsmyth's proposal is to imprison homeless people; mine is to put them on a work farm.

    There's little difference, except the work farm would be cheaper and probably more humane.

    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Rv3's authoritarianism bleeds through this whole thread. Why is homelessness something to solve? Quite a few homeless choose to live that way. Of course, the authoritarians will argue that "nobody wants to be homeless"; but that's just them being unwilling to accept other peoples preferences.
    LOL, what on Earth are you talking about?

    If a person chooses to live by robbing, should we "respect his preferences" and let him go on robbing?

    Derp, no, robbery is a crime.

    So is trespassing, which homeless people constantly and unavoidably do.

    There's nothing "authoritarian" about protecting property rights, whether from robbery, trespassing, or anything else.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Swordsmyth's proposal is to imprison homeless people; mine is to put them on a work farm.

    There's little difference, except the work farm would be cheaper and probably more humane.



    LOL, what on Earth are you talking about?

    If a person chooses to live by robbing, should we "respect his preferences" and let him go on robbing?

    Derp, no, robbery is a crime.

    So is trespassing, which homeless people constantly and unavoidably do.

    There's nothing "authoritarian" about protecting property rights, whether from robbery, trespassing, or anything else.
    He didn't say anything about imprisoning anybody, just offering a alternative. Also, being homeless does not always mean you're trespassing. If a person wants to live in a tent on Federal campgrounds and such how are they tresspassing?
    "The Patriarch"

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    He didn't say anything about imprisoning anybody
    He did, repeatedly. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    My way most comply voluntarily and those that don't are sent to an unpleasant institution that is already being paid for by taxpayers [i.e. prison]
    Back to you:

    just offering a alternative
    Yes, starving to death in the woods.

    Virtually no one's going to take that option, so virtually all of them are going to end up in prison.

    Also, being homeless does not always mean you're trespassing. If a person wants to live in a tent on Federal campgrounds and such how are they tresspassing?
    If that's allowed on federal lands, and we think it ought to be allowed (I think there ought not be any federal lands...), then they're not.

    Regardless, how many of the half million homeless people in the country do this?

    Approximately none, so the point (and also Swordsmyth's illusory alternative to prison) is moot.

    The vast majority of homeless people live in cities and could not survive out in the woods.

    That's why they don't live there now; that's why they wouldn't take Swordsmyth's alternative.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 10-01-2019 at 01:29 PM.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    He did, repeatedly. For example:



    Back to you:



    Yes, starving to death in the woods.

    Virtually no one's going to take that option, so virtually all of them are going to end up in prison.



    If that's allowed on federal lands, and we think it ought to be allowed (I think there ought not be any federal lands...), then they're not.

    Regardless, how many of the half million homeless people in the country do this?

    Approximately none, so the point (and also Swordsmyth's illusory alternative to prison) is moot.

    The vast majority of homeless people live in cities and could not survive out in the woods.

    That's why they don't live there now; that's why they wouldn't take Swordsmyth's alternative.
    If they refuse to stop trespassing then yes, I suppose you need to throw them in jail. A lot of federal campgrounds are full of homeless people. Not sure that's great for the rest of us but it's the truth.
    "The Patriarch"

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    If they refuse to stop trespassing then yes, I suppose you need to throw them in jail.
    And most won't stop trespassing, so the result will be putting them in jail.

    Is that authoritarian?

  19. #46
    Why is a home required?

    Seems some are addicted to being a tax slave.

    Some cities need to learn from Rome and install some bathrooms.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Why is a home required?

    Seems some are addicted to being a tax slave.

    Some cities need to learn from Rome and install some bathrooms.
    Why is a job or assets required?

    Just steal from your neighbor, amiright...?

    A house (or some kind of dwelling which you have the right to occupy) is required because the alternative is constant trespassing.

  21. #48
    Once the civil wars start I will have my scouts sweep up any homeless and draft them into my militia to be used as first wave shock troops . We will use Dankes to give them a retirement home if they survive the battles to show our gratitude. They will also be allowed to keep anything personally looted from the leftists in combat excluding real estate , women and children.
    Do something Danke



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Why is a job or assets required?

    Just steal from your neighbor, amiright...?

    A house (or some kind of dwelling which you have the right to occupy) is required because the alternative is constant trespassing.
    Who determines what constitutes a dwelling? What is you're criteria? If someone is living "the van life" and not stealing from anyone and moving from campground to campground should they be put in a "poor house" and forced to work?
    "The Patriarch"

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Who determines what constitutes a dwelling? What is you're criteria? If someone is living "the van life" and not stealing from anyone and moving from campground to campground should they be put in a "poor house" and forced to work?
    You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be...

    The problem is trespassing by people who cannot help but trespass, because there is no place (house, camp site, whatever) where they have a right to be. It has absolutely nothing to do with lifestyle, with how much one travels around, etc. It's simply about property rights - you're standing on some patch of Earth right now, do you own that patch or have the permission of its owner? If so, no problem. If not, problem.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You're making this far more complicated than it needs to be...

    The problem is trespassing by people who cannot help but trespass, because there is no place (house, camp site, whatever) where they have a right to be. It has absolutely nothing to do with lifestyle, with how much one travels around, etc. It's simply about property rights - you're standing on some patch of Earth right now, do you own that patch or have the permission of its owner? If so, no problem. If not, problem.
    I'm not trying to make anything complicated, simply trying to define your terms. What about a guy hitchhiking across the country sleeping in a tent?

    The fact that you are unwilling to define the terms under which you would have a government agent throw someone in jail I find rather strange.
    "The Patriarch"

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I'm not trying to make anything complicated, simply trying to define your terms. What about a guy hitchhiking across the country sleeping in a tent?

    The fact that you are unwilling to define the terms under which you would have a government agent throw someone in jail I find rather strange.
    I don't know why you want me to define the word dwelling - my argument doesn't hinge on the meaning of that term.

    It's just a word I happened to use in a post. I could just as well have said "place" or "area" etc.

    As for your hypothetical, does the guy have permission to use the land where's he's putting his tent?

    If not, is there any other place where he has the right to be (like an apartment he rents in the city from which he departed)?

    If not, is there any prospect of him obtaining such a place anywhere (does he have any money, any job prospects)?

    If not, then he goes to the poor house, because he's just going to keep trespassing otherwise.

  27. #53
    Government is the cause. It should never be the solution. One thing that might clarify the issue is to differentiate between people who are between homes due to job loss, illness, whatever, and people who choose a life of personal irresponsibility. The third category are those who are mentally ill. There should be a way to voluntarily commit people to stabilize them and get them to a place of productivity.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I don't know why you want me to define the word dwelling - my argument doesn't hinge on the meaning of that term.

    It's just a word I happened to use in a post. I could just as well have said "place" or "area" etc.

    As for your hypothetical, does the guy have permission to use the land where's he's putting his tent?

    If not, is there any other place where he has the right to be (like an apartment he rents in the city from which he departed)?

    If not, is there any prospect of him obtaining such a place anywhere (does he have any money, any job prospects)?

    If not, then he goes to the poor house, because he's just going to keep trespassing otherwise.
    I thought you were for freedom of movement?
    "The Patriarch"

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I thought you were for freedom of movement?
    Do you genuinely not see the difference between free immigration and trespassing or are you just $#@!ing with me at this point?

  30. #56
    On the off-chance @Origanalist wasn't $#@!ing with me, I'll go ahead and illustrate the difference:

    1. Free Immigration

    X and Y are adjoining plots of land.
    X is in Mexico. Y is in the US.
    Pedro owns X. Pete owns Y.
    Pete: "Hey Pedro, wanna come over for a BBQ?"
    Pedro: "Sure."
    Pedro walks from X to Y.
    Pedro's not trespassing.

    2. Trespassing

    Bob walks from his property onto his neighbor's without his neighbor's permission.
    Bob's trespassing.

    ...fairly simple

    Free immigration doesn't mean license to trespass.

    It means that who gets to use land is determined by the landowners in question, not by the state.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 10-01-2019 at 07:07 PM.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Why is a job or assets required?

    Just steal from your neighbor, amiright...?

    A house (or some kind of dwelling which you have the right to occupy) is required because the alternative is constant trespassing.
    No one is trespassing in public places..
    No one is required to have any permanent address.. (Not since I left supervision)

    and I steal from no one scavenging on what is thrown away.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post

    2. Trespassing

    Bob walks from his property onto his neighbor's without his neighbor's permission.
    Bob's trespassing.

    ...fairly simple

    .
    Bob on the sidewalk or in a RIGHT OF WAY is not trespassing..
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    No one is trespassing in public places..
    If they're misusing the public place they are.

    No one is required to have any permanent address.. (Not since I left supervision)
    I never said they were.

    I said they must have the right to be where they are.

    That doesn't have to a permanent address.

    They can go from one place to another to their hearts' content, so long as they have to right to be at each of those places.

    and I steal from no one scavenging on what is thrown away.
    OK, not sure how that's relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Bob on the sidewalk or in a RIGHT OF WAY is not trespassing..
    If he has a right to be where he is, he's not trespassing.

    I'm not sure what else to say without you being more specific.

    What is a "right of way" exactly?

    Do you mean an easement on private property?
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 10-01-2019 at 07:48 PM.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Assuming the homeless aren't permitted to shack up on public property (a terrible policy for both the homeless and for everyone else), and assuming there aren't enough charitably-minded private property owners to take them all in, there's literally no place where they can legally exist. Ejecting them from a place where they're trespassing only guarantees that they'll end up trespassing in some other place. So what's to be done? I don't have a definite opinion, but I think some form of institutionalization may be justifiable, as this may be both more humane for the homeless and less costly for the rest of society.
    Yes, I agree, bigger government is always the answer......

    I also love the fact that you don't have an opinion, even though you just stated it.....

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