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Thread: A Christian Looks at Islam

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    I dont disagree with what your saying but your logic and conclusions. So if in a pagan society you can kill, torture and rape any woman you like. and islam comes along and says hay, you can only rape and kill not torture, that while better does not conclude islam is god ordained. otherwise feminism and liberalism must be from god as they would improve the condition of woman over islam. [/COLOR]
    Islam does not in any shape or form, permit the rape of a woman. Even with your own wife, even though Islam states she must have sex with her husband barring any legitimate excuse (one of the husbands rights), he cannot force her even if we consider it a sin for a wife to withhold sex from her husband needlessly. This is established in the Sharia'ah. I'm not sure if you used that as an example or if that's what you believe.

    The actual reality is as I pictured it. Women were inferior, oppressed in their marriages, and it was encouraged to kill your own female babies, it elevated your status to do that. Here's a statement from Umar regarding the difference of spousal treatment:

    وكنا معشر قريش نغلب النساء فلما قدمنا على الأنصار إذا قوم تغلبهم نساؤهم ، فطفق نساؤنا يأخذن من أدب نساء الأنصار ، فصخبتُ على امرأتي ( أي : غضبت ) فراجعتني فأنكرتُ أن تراجعني قالت : ولم تنكر أن أراجعك ؟ فو الله إن أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ليراجعنه
    We of the Quraysh used to control our women, and when we came to [Medina] we saw that the Ansar were controlled by their women. Our women began to adopt the ways of their women, so I got angry with my wife and she began arguing with me which I didn't like. She replied, why do you object when the prophet's wives argue with him?

    You said "There's nothing really to disagree with. You posted verses I wholly explained" and this is our issue, its an issue of authority. Do we take the plain words of the koran and hadiths, or yours? when you say those verses do not say what they actually say, who do we listen to? that is why your editions to the koran mean nothing to me as the koran is clear on beating their wives. to claim it says [ to hit without pain or with a twig] makes a fool of the verse and its punishments by husbands to woman who disobey. This claim is well refuted in debates see below
    Nothing I stated was my opinion. It is from prophetic narration, for example when the Quran said, 'darbuha', the prophet clarified 'ghayr mubri7', which means without pain or malice. The Tafseer which I already quoted explains that:

    عطاء قال قلت لابن عباس : ما الضرب غير المبرح ؟ قال السواك
    Ata' asked ibn Abbass what that means (i.e., to hit without pain), he responded "like with a siwaak"


    Which I've already explained, but Al Hasan Al Basri also explained it means يعني غير مؤثر - without pain. The further explanation for that verse even further illustrates my point, when the prophet forbade any mistreatment of women, the women began mistreating their husbands which they complained about, so this verse came down, and he clarified even more saying:

    خَيْرُكُمْ خَيْرُكُمْ لأَهْلِهِ وَأَنَا خَيْرُكُمْ لأَهْلِي
    The best of you is the best to your wives, and I'm the best to my wives

    And I can keep posting examples, such as in the Qur'an

    وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِنْ كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَنْ تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئاً وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْراً كَثِيراً
    And live with them honorably, if you dislike them, perhaps you dislike a thing which Allah brings through a great deal of good 4:19

    The prophet went on to say about spending money, and emphasizing the treatment of wives

    وإنك لن تنفق نفقة إلا أجرت عليها حتى اللقمة ترفعها إلى في امرأتك
    And you never spend in the way of good and are not rewarded even if it is simply lifting food into your wife's mouth

    He said
    اسْتَوْصُوا بِالنِّسَاءِ خَيْرًا
    I enjoin the good treatment of women

    So again I must ask how do we reconcile this? The prophet is literally saying treat women good, he's literally saying if you touch them you cannot hurt them, the Quran is giving wives rights for the first time over their husbands, the prophet is even going so far as to adopt the Jewish customs in Medinah (the wives of the Ansar were Jewish, and it was matriarchal); the prophet famously let his wives argue with him, to a point where many times his companions would want to step in--dismayed he would allow them to talk to him like that, but in reality he was showing how to have a healthy relationship where both sides have a voice.

    In no way shape or form, when I have studied Islam from the scriptures, and read it to understand rather than to derive a point, did Islam come off as misogynistic. The overarching message is crystal clear, women are to be respected, treated well, ESPECIALLY because as men we can be a huge detriment to them.

    The prophet once said be careful who you accept as a husband for you daughter because marriage is like slavery. At first it's a shocking statement but what he's really saying is, the man has power, so make sure he's a decent, moral man who wouldn't abuse your daughter. He wanted to warn fathers not to allow their daughters to marry bad men.

    And I'm supposed to believe Islam is misogynistic? When it tells me as a Muslim to respect the mother 4x more than the father?

    يا رسول الله من أحق الناس بحسن صحابتي ؟ قال : أمك ، قال ثم من ؟ قال : أمك ، قال : ثم من ؟ قال : أمك ، قال : ثم من ؟ قال : ثم أبوك
    'Oh messenger of God, who is most deserving of my respect?', 'Your mother, your mother, your mother, your mother, then your father'

    I'm sorry but that's a bit far fetched for me.

    While the Qur'an gives rights of men over women, it likewise gives rights of women over men, children over parents, slaves over their masters, and until that's analyzed you cannot come to any reasonable conclusion.

    Also, the hadith that I said was weak was not from Bukhari it was from Abu Dawood and it's weak because one of the narrators in the isnaad is mahjool, he's completely unknown.
    Last edited by Muwahid; 02-17-2018 at 09:31 PM.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
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  3. #32
    the prophet famously let his wives argue with him”. What a $#@!ed up “religion”
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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    Islam does not in any shape or form, permit the rape of a woman. Even with your own wife, even though Islam states she must have sex with her husband barring any legitimate excuse (one of the husbands rights), he cannot force her even if we consider it a sin for a wife to withhold sex from her husband needlessly. This is established in the Sharia'ah. I'm not sure if you used that as an example or if that's what you believe.

    The actual reality is as I pictured it. Women were inferior, oppressed in their marriages, and it was encouraged to kill your own female babies, it elevated your status to do that. Here's a statement from Umar regarding the difference of spousal treatment:

    وكنا معشر قريش نغلب النساء فلما قدمنا على الأنصار إذا قوم تغلبهم نساؤهم ، فطفق نساؤنا يأخذن من أدب نساء الأنصار ، فصخبتُ على امرأتي ( أي : غضبت ) فراجعتني فأنكرتُ أن تراجعني قالت : ولم تنكر أن أراجعك ؟ فو الله إن أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ليراجعنه
    We of the Quraysh used to control our women, and when we came to [Medina] we saw that the Ansar were controlled by their women. Our women began to adopt the ways of their women, so I got angry with my wife and she began arguing with me which I didn't like. She replied, why do you object when the prophet's wives argue with him?



    Nothing I stated was my opinion. It is from prophetic narration, for example when the Quran said, 'darbuha', the prophet clarified 'ghayr mubri7', which means without pain or malice. The Tafseer which I already quoted explains that:

    عطاء قال قلت لابن عباس : ما الضرب غير المبرح ؟ قال السواك
    Ata' asked ibn Abbass what that means (i.e., to hit without pain), he responded "like with a siwaak"


    Which I've already explained, but Al Hasan Al Basri also explained it means يعني غير مؤثر - without pain. The further explanation for that verse even further illustrates my point, when the prophet forbade any mistreatment of women, the women began mistreating their husbands which they complained about, so this verse came down, and he clarified even more saying:

    خَيْرُكُمْ خَيْرُكُمْ لأَهْلِهِ وَأَنَا خَيْرُكُمْ لأَهْلِي
    The best of you is the best to your wives, and I'm the best to my wives

    And I can keep posting examples, such as in the Qur'an

    وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِنْ كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَنْ تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئاً وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْراً كَثِيراً
    And live with them honorably, if you dislike them, perhaps you dislike a thing which Allah brings through a great deal of good 4:19

    The prophet went on to say about spending money, and emphasizing the treatment of wives

    وإنك لن تنفق نفقة إلا أجرت عليها حتى اللقمة ترفعها إلى في امرأتك
    And you never spend in the way of good and are not rewarded even if it is simply lifting food into your wife's mouth

    He said
    اسْتَوْصُوا بِالنِّسَاءِ خَيْرًا
    I enjoin the good treatment of women

    So again I must ask how do we reconcile this? The prophet is literally saying treat women good, he's literally saying if you touch them you cannot hurt them, the Quran is giving wives rights for the first time over their husbands, the prophet is even going so far as to adopt the Jewish customs in Medinah (the wives of the Ansar were Jewish, and it was matriarchal); the prophet famously let his wives argue with him, to a point where many times his companions would want to step in--dismayed he would allow them to talk to him like that, but in reality he was showing how to have a healthy relationship where both sides have a voice.

    In no way shape or form, when I have studied Islam from the scriptures, and read it to understand rather than to derive a point, did Islam come off as misogynistic. The overarching message is crystal clear, women are to be respected, treated well, ESPECIALLY because as men we can be a huge detriment to them.

    The prophet once said be careful who you accept as a husband for you daughter because marriage is like slavery. At first it's a shocking statement but what he's really saying is, the man has power, so make sure he's a decent, moral man who wouldn't abuse your daughter. He wanted to warn fathers not to allow their daughters to marry bad men.

    And I'm supposed to believe Islam is misogynistic? When it tells me as a Muslim to respect the mother 4x more than the father?

    يا رسول الله من أحق الناس بحسن صحابتي ؟ قال : أمك ، قال ثم من ؟ قال : أمك ، قال : ثم من ؟ قال : أمك ، قال : ثم من ؟ قال : ثم أبوك
    'Oh messenger of God, who is most deserving of my respect?', 'Your mother, your mother, your mother, your mother, then your father'

    I'm sorry but that's a bit far fetched for me.

    While the Qur'an gives rights of men over women, it likewise gives rights of women over men, children over parents, slaves over their masters, and until that's analyzed you cannot come to any reasonable conclusion.

    Also, the hadith that I said was weak was not from Bukhari it was from Abu Dawood and it's weak because one of the narrators in the isnaad is mahjool, he's completely unknown.

    No I was just using as an example against your claim that because Islam helped woman thus it is pro woman or god ordained. Having said that many would say muta is a form of rape. from my op

    Muslim men can have sex with captures slaves and wives called muta. The Qur’an permits Muslims to have sex with their female captives and slaves (i.e. those "whom their right hands possess"). As the Muslim armies raided town after town, they captured many women, who would often be sold or traded. Yet, since the Muslim men were a long way from their wives, they needed wisdom from God to guide them in their treatment of their female captives. and as you know this is well established in the koran and multiple hadiths.


    Once more i cant say it enough, the authority is not what you say, but what the koran says as it does many times it is clear in its teachings. Here is what the koran says

    Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret what Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.
    -Qur'an 4:34 (Pickthall)

    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great
    -Qur'an 4:34 (Shakir)

    You want me to believe it says "without pain" to justify this you do not quote the koran, you quote a modern liberal muslim translator that adds to what Allah says is clear in his word. If you claim it is to be done without pain you are adding to gods eternal word and making a mockery of the verse. You have given some claimed support for fair treatment of woman. Could you please provide verses/ hadiths for them so we can see the source. I dont deny that Muhammad thought he was treating woman well, i am saying he had a low view of woman and thus that is not saying much. I will counter your above and please provide sources from now on.


    Special Privileges, Wives, and sex Slaves

    While the Koran says Muslims may have four wives the prophet had eleven [Sahih al-Bukhari, Number 268] . Child marriage was common in Arabia in the 7th century and when the prophet was in his fifties he married Aisha who was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine. Aisha said

    “The messenger of God married me when I was seven, my marriage was consummated when I was nine.”
    -Tuburi vol 7.7

    “The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).”
    -Sahih al-Bukhari 5158—Narrated Urwa:

    "when Prophet (pbuh) married me I was only six year old at that time. ... One day while I was playing with my friends in a swing-sets (dolnas)... I was breathing rapidly because I was still tired of swinging with my friends. And I did not understand why I was called here. Then, my mother took me to a room where I saw three helping maids (ansars) who immediately decorated me and handed me over to the Prophet (pbuh), and they left the room. At that time I was only nine- year old. Prophet (pbuh) consummated our marriage that day".
    -Sahih Bukhari Hadith: Hazrat Aisha (RA) narrated

    Once, one of the prophets wives caught him having sex with one of his slave girls Mary the copt in one of his wives beds. His wives were very upset by this and Muhammad swore an oath to never again have sex with his slave girls. However Muhammad magically than received revelations from Allah that it was ok to have sex with his slave girls in Sura 66 1-2.

    The Prophet admired Umm Ibrahaim [Mary the Copt], who was fair-skinned and beautiful. He lodged her in al-Aliyah, at the property nowadays called the mashrabah of Umm Ibrahim. He used to visit her there and ordered her to veil herself, [but] he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property.
    -Al-Tabari, Volume 39, p. 194

    and this allowed him to go back on his oath to his wives. In fact this is a common theme in the Koran. Allah seems there to aid in whatever Muhammad desires.

    “In the qu'ran again and again Allah is quit solicitous of his prophet, and ready to command what pleases him.”
    - Robert Spencer The Truth About Muhammad Regenery Publishing Inc Washington D.C 2006


    “Since the Qur'an is supposedly Allah's eternal Word, our Muslim friends expect us to believe that, from eternity past, Allah had nothing better to do than compose verses giving Muhammad the right to break his oath to his wives so that he could continue having sex with his slave-girl.
    -David Wood

    He also marries his daughter in law Zaynab Bint Jahsh. Muhammad and Allah in sura 4.24 allowed Muslims to have sex with their captured slave girls of Banu Mustaliq. Muhammad married one of those captives a woman named Juwayoriya. At the Khaybar Oasis Muslims kicked them out of the land and took woman as captives. Muhammad allowed a Muslim named Dihya any slave girl from the captives and he chose Safiyya- when Muhammad saw her beauty he said Dihya could chose any other- Muhammad than married Safiyya and consummated the marriage that night. Muhammad created many widows because of Islam they could not remarry, Aisha was only 18 at this death. Only Muhammad can have daughters of his maternal and paternal uncles and aunts as well as any believing woman. Muhammad can change and equire new slave girls.

    “O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her -- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess [slaves] in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
    -Qur’an 33:50

    Muhammad got more of the booty than anyone else after victories or raids once receiving 1/5 of the booty of the entire army. Believers cannot bother Muhammad with familiar talk or he will be annoyed annoyed. There is no speaking ill of Muhammad 33.53-54.


    Muhammad's View of Woman

    [Muhammad said]: O womenfolk, you should give charity and ask much forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady among them said: Why is it, Messenger of Allah, that our folk is in bulk in Hell? Upon this the Holy Prophet observed: You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion but (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of the wise, besides you. Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense and with religion? He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Your lack of common sense (can be well judged from the fact) that the evidence of two women is equal to one man, that is a proof of the lack of common sense.
    -Sahih Muslim 142 also Sahih Al-Bukhari 1462

    "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."
    -Abo Dawud 2142

    The Prophet said: “Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?” The women said: “Yes.” He said: “This is because of the deficiency of her mind.”
    -Sahih al-Bukhari 2658

    'Aisha [Muhammad wife] said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women
    -Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:

    The iron fist statue in Saudi Arabia is to remind woman who is in control. A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires Bukhari 72:715. Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain." Muslim 4:2127.

    The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."
    -Narrated Usama bin Zaid: Sahih Bukhari 7:62:33
    Here is Muhammad's version of paradise for woman.

    Allah’s Apostle said: "In Paradise there is a pavilion made of a single hollow pearl sixty miles wide, in each corner of which there are wives who will not see those in the other corners; and the believers will visit and enjoy them." Sahih Al-Bukhari 4879

    We went out with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi’l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah’s Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.
    -Sahih Muslim 3371

    Robert Spencer vs. Moustafa Zayed: Does Islam Grant Equal Rights to Women?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70ugQV0OecQ






    So I think we can stop this silliness about Muhammad and his treatment of woman. From a perspective of Muslim dominate countries you might have this opinion, but from the west we view the treatment of woman under Islam very different. Just to be clear i reject Islam for many reasons, mistreatment of woman is hard for me to accept, but not a major factor. Nothing says god must treat men and woman equal. If you want me to belive woman are not allowed to be beaten, or were not mistreated, you must use the koran and provide references.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    [COLOR=#333333][COLOR=#333333][FONT=Tahoma][I]Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great
    -Qur'an 4:34 (Shakir)
    I don't see how this verse is misogynistic. I'm sorry maybe you feel as though biological sex is a myth like progressives do these days. The verse is instructing men to protect and take care of women because that's their natural disposition as men.

    You want me to believe it says "without pain" to justify this you do not quote the koran, you quote a modern liberal muslim translator that adds to what Allah says is clear in his word. If you claim it is to be done without pain you are adding to gods eternal word and making a mockery of the verse. You have given some claimed support for fair treatment of woman. Could you please provide verses/ hadiths for them so we can see the source. I dont deny that Muhammad thought he was treating woman well, i am saying he had a low view of woman and thus that is not saying much. I will counter your above and please provide sources from now on.
    I'm going to soon question reading comprehension skills. I quoted Ibn Abbass who was a companion of the prophet and therefore we take his word as law. I quoted no modern scholars. What I said is established Shar'iah regarding that verse.

    If you want to live in denial because of your preconceived world view, that's a delusion you will have to subscribe to alone.

    Special Privileges, Wives, and sex Slaves

    While the Koran says Muslims may have four wives the prophet had eleven [Sahih al-Bukhari, Number 268] . Child marriage was common in Arabia in the 7th century and when the prophet was in his fifties he married Aisha who was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine. Aisha said
    Islam ordained that the female go through puberty which is why post-pubescence is the earliest age for marriage in Islam; of course in the modern era because we must be concerned for the psychological well-being of the girl, it is not appropriate to marry girls off in the modernized world simply after puberty.

    This topic isn't even one of misogyny however, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up at all. I'd be more than happy to discuss at length his marriage to A'isha, but we're talking about misogyny and it seems you're playing that game of "whack-a-mole" in which you fail to address anything I've said, and just post a heap more of stuff you think aids you, and say Look at this!

    That is sophistry.

    In your heading "Muhammad's view of women", you have literally copy and pasted the majority of Hadiths I already explained in this thread.

    I also find it a little humorous that you accuse me of quoting "Modern liberal scholars", something I did not do, when you are trying to quote David Wood as an authority on Islam

    Since it seems you've tapped out at actually discussing the real topic at hand (you failed to address any of the points I made, or any of the hadiths/Quranic verse I've posted), I will just end with this. It does not devalue your Christianity to accept merits of Islam. You do not become less Christian, or have to accept Islam as the word of God to not believe Islam is 'evil' in every aspect.

    I find it bizarre when Christians or others, want to look at any aspect of Islam and try to demonize it which is simply illogical, it did not promulgate and become one of the largest religions in the world by being an evil religion with poor values. Here you were presented with overwhelming evidence that Islam improved the lives of women, and you were corrected on numerous misunderstandings of scriptures; instead of learning, you chose to put blinders on and literally just repeat yourself adding nothing new to the discussion.

    If you actually want to give a proper response, I will be here to reply.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    I don't see how this verse is misogynistic. I'm sorry maybe you feel as though biological sex is a myth like progressives do these days. The verse is instructing men to protect and take care of women because that's their natural disposition as men.



    I'm going to soon question reading comprehension skills. I quoted Ibn Abbass who was a companion of the prophet and therefore we take his word as law. I quoted no modern scholars. What I said is established Shar'iah regarding that verse.

    If you want to live in denial because of your preconceived world view, that's a delusion you will have to subscribe to alone.



    Islam ordained that the female go through puberty which is why post-pubescence is the earliest age for marriage in Islam; of course in the modern era because we must be concerned for the psychological well-being of the girl, it is not appropriate to marry girls off in the modernized world simply after puberty.

    This topic isn't even one of misogyny however, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up at all. I'd be more than happy to discuss at length his marriage to A'isha, but we're talking about misogyny and it seems you're playing that game of "whack-a-mole" in which you fail to address anything I've said, and just post a heap more of stuff you think aids you, and say Look at this!

    That is sophistry.

    In your heading "Muhammad's view of women", you have literally copy and pasted the majority of Hadiths I already explained in this thread.

    I also find it a little humorous that you accuse me of quoting "Modern liberal scholars", something I did not do, when you are trying to quote David Wood as an authority on Islam

    Since it seems you've tapped out at actually discussing the real topic at hand (you failed to address any of the points I made, or any of the hadiths/Quranic verse I've posted), I will just end with this. It does not devalue your Christianity to accept merits of Islam. You do not become less Christian, or have to accept Islam as the word of God to not believe Islam is 'evil' in every aspect.

    I find it bizarre when Christians or others, want to look at any aspect of Islam and try to demonize it which is simply illogical, it did not promulgate and become one of the largest religions in the world by being an evil religion with poor values. Here you were presented with overwhelming evidence that Islam improved the lives of women, and you were corrected on numerous misunderstandings of scriptures; instead of learning, you chose to put blinders on and literally just repeat yourself adding nothing new to the discussion.

    If you actually want to give a proper response, I will be here to reply.

    You are attempting to set up a straw man claiming I have said anything about slam being misogynistic. I have said the treatment and view of woman is hard for me to accept given its claim of divine origin. I would not describe Islam as hating woman, simply very unfair treatment of woman. You than attempt another straw man claiming I have said "biological sex is a myth " of course i have never said that. The fact I differentiate between man and woman shows this but you are attempting to move the goal post and strike down strawmans as you cant address the koran on its terms. The issues i have [well many see op] with this verse are bolded below

    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great
    -Qur'an 4:34 (Shakir)


    So as i said different cultures see fair treatment of woman separate. You see beating our wives and locking them in separate rooms as "men to protect and take care of women because that's their natural disposition as men." in the west [me] we would disagree on this conclusion.


    As i sated before unless you can provide the claimed source so it can be evaluated in context, i care not what you have said but what Allah has in his word. Plus as we saw above, thereis to much to counter and go against your claims from Muhammad himself. Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain." Muslim 4:2127. So therfore must conclude If you want to live in denial because of your preconceived world view, that's a delusion you will have to subscribe to alone.



    You said "
    of course in the modern era because we must be concerned for the psychological well-being of the girl, it is not appropriate to marry girls off in the modernized world simply after puberty. "

    Why is this? is not Muhammad the example? is not the koran gods eternal word? why therefore reject it for modern standards of man? are you not muslim? is Muhammad not good enough? did Allah get it wrong?


    You stated

    in which you fail to address anything I've said, and just post a heap more of stuff you think aids you, and say Look at this!

    However we dont need to look more than one post back to see who from the beginning, has ignored large sections of responses we cannot deal with. You have ignored the koran and hadiths to take small sections of islam and try and make it out to be the whole and twist what is clearly at adds with your view. That is why i said from the first, our disagreement is authority, for me that is the koran, Muhammad and hadiths. For you it is how you can try and twist them to your liking. This thread has never been about misogyny, Muhammad loved his wives. it is on the poor treatment and view of woman overall that i find hard to accept. but that is one minor fraction of my op and not why i reject Islam. But of course i will speak on anything i posted in my op. The reason i posted the stuff above was to show how false your claims are and your attempts to dismiss the koran should be rejected.


    I will address anything you post that has a reference so it can be evaluated. I have done so with all my arguments and sources so it can be evaluated. You claim I have "tapped out" is a defensive mechanism to try and ignore the fact that is just what you have done. I have posted with sources you have made unsourced claims that contradict the koran and than claim i have ignored your arguments. Well unless you can argue from the koran/hadiths i dont care what you have to say. Once more its an issue of authority. Gods eternal word in the koran, the actions of Muhammad, or you, i chose the koran.



    I can agree with that. the problem is i have a brain and moral compass, therefore i can see evil for evil if it is secular, done by Christians, or Muslims. However i dont think you really read my op. As i said the violence etc associated with islam does not make me reject islam [who says god cannot be violent or evil?] i reject islam because it is not true.


    How did islam spread? through "good values"? no through the sword and than through birthrate. I am in no way trying to demonize islam, i am saying it is not true. I am saying islam allows you to beat your wife because that is what gods eternal word [that is clear] says. Not matter how much you try and pretend it does not.


    We both know you will not respond to arguments by your last post and wont give sources to counter as you have none.








    Last edited by 1stvermont; 02-20-2018 at 06:38 PM.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    You are attempting to set up a straw man claiming I have said anything about slam being misogynistic. I have said the treatment and view of woman is hard for me to accept given its claim of divine origin. I would not describe Islam as hating woman, simply very unfair treatment of woman. You than attempt another straw man claiming I have said "biological sex is a myth " of course i have never said that. The fact I differentiate between man and woman shows this but you are attempting to move the goal post and strike down strawmans as you cant address the koran on its terms. The issues i have [well many see op] with this verse are bolded below

    Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great
    -Qur'an 4:34 (Shakir)


    So as i said different cultures see fair treatment of woman separate. You see beating our wives and locking them in separate rooms as "men to protect and take care of women because that's their natural disposition as men." in the west [me] we would disagree on this conclusion.


    As i sated before unless you can provide the claimed source so it can be evaluated in context, i care not what you have said but what Allah has in his word. Plus as we saw above, thereis to much to counter and go against your claims from Muhammad himself. Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain." Muslim 4:2127. So therfore must conclude [COLOR=#333333]If you want to live in denial because of your preconceived world view, that's a delusion you will have to subscribe to alone.
    I don't post the Arabic script for fun, you can copy and paste the Arabic script of anything I posted and it will take you directly to the source. Is your argument that you don't trust what I'm saying because it doesn't have a source next to it? Is that why you're not addressing what I said?

    For example, the hadith about 'ghayr mubri7' being likened to a twig or miswak, it's found easily in Tafsir at-Tabari
    9386 - حدثنا المثنى قال حدثنا إسحاق قال حدثنا ابن عيينة عن ابن جريج عن عطاء قال قلت لابن عباس : ما الضرب غير المبرح ؟ قال السواك وشبهه يضربها به . [ ص: 315 ]
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra..._no=50&ID=1256

    Hadith about spending in the way of good even if it's just lifting food into your wive's mouth, Bukhari:
    56 حدثنا الحكم بن نافع قال أخبرنا شعيب عن الزهري قال حدثني عامر بن سعد عن سعد بن أبي وقاص أنه أخبره أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال إنك لن تنفق نفقة تبتغي بها وجه الله إلا أجرت عليها حتى ما تجعل في فم امرأتك
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...=52&startno=47

    Hadith about the mother being more respected than the father
    5626 حدثنا قتيبة بن سعيد حدثنا جرير عن عمارة بن القعقاع بن شبرمة عن أبي زرعة عن أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه قال جاء رجل إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال يا رسول الله من أحق الناس بحسن صحابتي قال أمك قال ثم من قال ثم أمك قال ثم من قال ثم أمك قال ثم من قال ثم أبوك وقال ابن شبرمة ويحيى بن أيوب حدثنا أبو زرعة مثله
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...0&ID=3340#docu

    I can post all of them like this. Now address them please.

    As for 4:34 suggesting good women are obedient. Again what is the alternative? Are good women not obedient? Should there be chaos in the household so we can be politically correct. Islam places men as the heads of the households, with that they are instructed to do what?

    3238 - عن أبي هريرة قال : قال رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - : استوصوا بالنساء خيرا .
    I enjoin the good treatment of women
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...k_no=79&ID=163

    It is imperative that a husband treats his wife nicely and spends on her, does not hurt her, feeds her, and lives honorably with her

    وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِنْ كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَنْ تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئاً وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْراً كَثِيراً
    And live with them honorably, if you dislike them, perhaps you dislike a thing which Allah brings through a great deal of good Quran 4:19

    Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain." Muslim 4:2127
    As for this statement, which you've copy and pasted directly from "thereligionofpeace" (objective source? Probably not), they make sure not to post the actual hadith because they with to insinuate he hurt A'isha for "leaving the house without his permission"

    أنه قال يوما ألا أحدثكم عني وعن أمي قال فظننا أنه يريد أمه التي ولدته قال قالت عائشة ألا أحدثكم عني وعن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قلنا بلى قال قالت لما كانت ليلتي التي كان النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فيها عندي انقلب فوضع رداءه وخلع نعليه فوضعهما عند رجليه وبسط طرف إزاره على فراشه فاضطجع فلم يلبث إلا ريثما ظن أن قد رقدت فأخذ رداءه رويدا وانتعل رويدا وفتح الباب فخرج ثم أجافه رويدا فجعلت درعي في رأسي واختمرت وتقنعت إزاري ثم انطلقت على إثره حتى جاء البقيع فقام فأطال القيام ثم رفع يديه ثلاث مرات ثم انحرف فانحرفت فأسرع فأسرعت فهرول فهرولت فأحضر فأحضرت فسبقته فدخلت فليس إلا أن اضطجعت فدخل فقال ما لك يا عائش حشيا رابية قالت قلت لا شيء قال لتخبريني أو ليخبرني اللطيف الخبير قالت قلت يا رسول الله بأبي أنت وأمي فأخبرته قال فأنت السواد الذي رأيت أمامي قلت نعم فلهدني في صدري لهدة أوجعتني ثم قال أظننت أن يحيف الله عليك ورسوله قالت مهما يكتم الناس يعلمه الله نعم قال فإن جبريل أتاني حين رأيت فناداني فأخفاه منك فأجبته فأخفيته منك ولم يكن يدخل عليك وقد وضعت ثيابك وظننت أن قد رقدت فكرهت أن أوقظك وخشيت أن تستوحشي فقال إن ربك يأمرك أن تأتي أهل البقيع فتستغفر لهم قالت قلت كيف أقول لهم يا رسول الله قال قولي السلام على أهل الديار من المؤمنين والمسلمين ويرحم الله المستقدمين منا والمستأخرين وإنا إن شاء الله بكم للاحقون
    'Aisha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra..._no=53&ID=2733

    In summary, the prophet quietly left the house, she became curious, followed him, and lied to him about it. He was upset thinking that she thought he would deal with her unjustly for coming, and that he only left because he didn't want to wake her and scare her.

    Him "striking her" is actually قلت نعم فلهدني في صدري لهدة أوجعتني, the word meaning he pushed my chest with his palm (that's what lahadni means), it did cause her pain, which most likely was not the intent of what he did.

    If this is the astounding domestic abuse of Muhammad then again, I am not buying it whatsoever. A'isha herself was the one who said the prophet never struck a woman or servant yet we are meant to believe she suffered from abuse by Muhammad.

    You said "of course in the modern era because we must be concerned for the psychological well-being of the girl, it is not appropriate to marry girls off in the modernized world simply after puberty. "

    Why is this? is not Muhammad the example? is not the koran gods eternal word? why therefore reject it for modern standards of man? are you not muslim? is Muhammad not good enough? did Allah get it wrong?
    I'm saying there's fluidity in age of marriage appropriate. Islam set no age. It set a guideline that she must have gone through puberty and is physically mature for child bearing.

    Would anyone trust an American 18-year-old to be married and have kids? No, because they have no mentally matured to take that responsibility. But 50 years ago, it was much more reasonable.

    In fact our "age of maturity" directly relates to end of education, meaning 18 in America, because High school ends at 18. 1,400 years ago without even primary schools, they're raised to be married. When puberty hits they marry. Does that mean we replicate it under all circumstances? That makes no sense.

    Islam does not enforce this ridiculous rigidity, we have common sense and wisdom.

    How did islam spread? through "good values"? no through the sword and than through birthrate. I am in no way trying to demonize islam, i am saying it is not true. I am saying islam allows you to beat your wife because that is what gods eternal word [that is clear] says. Not matter how much you try and pretend it does not.


    We both know you will not respond to arguments by your last post and wont give sources to counter as you have none.
    Not by the sword because there were no mass conversions. Muslims fought with legitimate cusus belli when they fought the Romans and Persians. The people came to Islam on their own.

    Actually interesting that the Christian Arabs in Damascus aided the Muslims in seiging because the Roman Christians were racist against them.

    And everything I said has sources.

    You're the one copy and pasting arguments from Wikiislam and Thereligionofpeace, which shows your intent when discussing these matters. As a piece of advice not just for you but for anyone wanting to know the truth rather than confirm biases, all those websites are bottom of the barrel when it comes to argumentation. They're so rife with sophistic arguments, it's almost a joke.

    Plus they have such a clear agenda and bias, any objective person would know getting info from there is about as disingenuous as me trying to learn about Christianity from answering-christianity.com rather than actually studying the bible.
    Last edited by Muwahid; 02-20-2018 at 07:19 PM.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    I don't post the Arabic script for fun, you can copy and paste the Arabic script of anything I posted and it will take you directly to the source. Is your argument that you don't trust what I'm saying because it doesn't have a source next to it? Is that why you're not addressing what I said?

    For example, the hadith about 'ghayr mubri7' being likened to a twig or miswak, it's found easily in Tafsir at-Tabari
    9386 - حدثنا المثنى قال حدثنا إسحاق قال حدثنا ابن عيينة عن ابن جريج عن عطاء قال قلت لابن عباس : ما الضرب غير المبرح ؟ قال السواك وشبهه يضربها به . [ ص: 315 ]
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra..._no=50&ID=1256

    Hadith about spending in the way of good even if it's just lifting food into your wive's mouth, Bukhari:
    56 حدثنا الحكم بن نافع قال أخبرنا شعيب عن الزهري قال حدثني عامر بن سعد عن سعد بن أبي وقاص أنه أخبره أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال إنك لن تنفق نفقة تبتغي بها وجه الله إلا أجرت عليها حتى ما تجعل في فم امرأتك
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...=52&startno=47

    Hadith about the mother being more respected than the father
    5626 حدثنا قتيبة بن سعيد حدثنا جرير عن عمارة بن القعقاع بن شبرمة عن أبي زرعة عن أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه قال جاء رجل إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال يا رسول الله من أحق الناس بحسن صحابتي قال أمك قال ثم من قال ثم أمك قال ثم من قال ثم أمك قال ثم من قال ثم أبوك وقال ابن شبرمة ويحيى بن أيوب حدثنا أبو زرعة مثله
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...0&ID=3340#docu

    I can post all of them like this. Now address them please.

    Thank you for providing sources so i can have a look at your sources. The reason is First to evaluate in context your sources, second to save time instead of hunting down what your saying. Now I am limited by english but lets say the hadith does say beat with no pain with a twig [what the koran does not say]. This is not what Muhammad did in sahih muslim 2127 when he stuck Aisha and "caused her pain" or abu backr in sahih al-bukhari 6845. Or when Muhammad said they could flog their wives in sahih al bukhari 5204. Or Umar in sunan ibn majah 1986, how can you say this is without pain or the passages i sent previous. I think the weight of evidence is against a claimed "painless" beating that would make no sense in the koranic verse that says to admonish them and send them to their rooms, than beat them [painless] if they dont get their acts straightened out. How does that make sense of 4.34?


    As for one on feeding your wife not sure what you are saying here or why it matters. And for a single woman being more respected than the father does not bother me, post 33 and my op show according to Allah, the koran, and Muhammad, woman were not as well respected and that is what is hard for me to accept. You keep trying to take small bits you can point to where it seems woman are treated well, and ignore the issues i bring up where they clearly are not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    As for 4:34 suggesting good women are obedient. Again what is the alternative? Are good women not obedient? Should there be chaos in the household so we can be politically correct. Islam places men as the heads of the households, with that they are instructed to do what?

    3238 - عن أبي هريرة قال : قال رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - : استوصوا بالنساء خيرا .
    I enjoin the good treatment of women
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra...k_no=79&ID=163

    It is imperative that a husband treats his wife nicely and spends on her, does not hurt her, feeds her, and lives honorably with her

    وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِنْ كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَنْ تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئاً وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْراً كَثِيراً
    And live with them honorably, if you dislike them, perhaps you dislike a thing which Allah brings through a great deal of good Quran 4:19
    Obedient to his sexual desires and what else he pleases. Obedience is not the issue even, his ability to beat her when she does not obey is an issue for some. Once more treating woman "well" [ not letting them starve] is very different in islam than the west. And if the treatment Muhammad had in mind that he did as i showed on post 33 and op is treating woman well, than yes it is hard for me to accept. I agree in islam they are not to cheat on your wife. That is why you get 4 and can have temporary marriage [muta] with your slave girls to satisfy your sexual desires.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    As for this statement, which you've copy and pasted directly from "thereligionofpeace" (objective source? Probably not),
    actually it was from the koran. I am told that is vital to Islamic theology. Never been to the site but have read his book and seen a few of his debates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    they make sure not to post the actual hadith because they with to insinuate he hurt A'isha for "leaving the house without his permission"
    أنه قال يوما ألا أحدثكم عني وعن أمي قال فظننا أنه يريد أمه التي ولدته قال قالت عائشة ألا أحدثكم عني وعن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قلنا بلى قال قالت لما كانت ليلتي التي كان النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فيها عندي انقلب فوضع رداءه وخلع نعليه فوضعهما عند رجليه وبسط طرف إزاره على فراشه فاضطجع فلم يلبث إلا ريثما ظن أن قد رقدت فأخذ رداءه رويدا وانتعل رويدا وفتح الباب فخرج ثم أجافه رويدا فجعلت درعي في رأسي واختمرت وتقنعت إزاري ثم انطلقت على إثره حتى جاء البقيع فقام فأطال القيام ثم رفع يديه ثلاث مرات ثم انحرف فانحرفت فأسرع فأسرعت فهرول فهرولت فأحضر فأحضرت فسبقته فدخلت فليس إلا أن اضطجعت فدخل فقال ما لك يا عائش حشيا رابية قالت قلت لا شيء قال لتخبريني أو ليخبرني اللطيف الخبير قالت قلت يا رسول الله بأبي أنت وأمي فأخبرته قال فأنت السواد الذي رأيت أمامي قلت نعم فلهدني في صدري لهدة أوجعتني ثم قال أظننت أن يحيف الله عليك ورسوله قالت مهما يكتم الناس يعلمه الله نعم قال فإن جبريل أتاني حين رأيت فناداني فأخفاه منك فأجبته فأخفيته منك ولم يكن يدخل عليك وقد وضعت ثيابك وظننت أن قد رقدت فكرهت أن أوقظك وخشيت أن تستوحشي فقال إن ربك يأمرك أن تأتي أهل البقيع فتستغفر لهم قالت قلت كيف أقول لهم يا رسول الله قال قولي السلام على أهل الديار من المؤمنين والمسلمين ويرحم الله المستقدمين منا والمستأخرين وإنا إن شاء الله بكم للاحقون
    'Aisha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi' (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you.
    http://library.islamweb.net/newlibra..._no=53&ID=2733

    In summary, the prophet quietly left the house, she became curious, followed him, and lied to him about it. He was upset thinking that she thought he would deal with her unjustly for coming, and that he only left because he didn't want to wake her and scare her.


    Him "striking her" is actually قلت نعم فلهدني في صدري لهدة أوجعتني, the word meaning he pushed my chest with his palm (that's what lahadni means), it did cause her pain, which most likely was not the intent of what he did.

    If this is the astounding domestic abuse of Muhammad then again, I am not buying it whatsoever. A'isha herself was the one who said the prophet never struck a woman or servant yet we are meant to believe she suffered from abuse by Muhammad.
    My apologies, she followed him thinking he was going to have sex with one of his other wives when it was his night to spend with her and she dared to follow him to see what he was up to and so deserved to be hit and caused pain. You say he did this accidentally, allah did not say this neither did the hadith. the point is you claim he should have beat her with a stick without pain yet he hit her on the chest causing pain. We have 2 separate Islams here, yours and historical islam.



    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    I'm saying there's fluidity in age of marriage appropriate. Islam set no age. It set a guideline that she must have gone through puberty and is physically mature for child bearing.

    Would anyone trust an American 18-year-old to be married and have kids? No, because they have no mentally matured to take that responsibility. But 50 years ago, it was much more reasonable.

    In fact our "age of maturity" directly relates to end of education, meaning 18 in America, because High school ends at 18. 1,400 years ago without even primary schools, they're raised to be married. When puberty hits they marry. Does that mean we replicate it under all circumstances? That makes no sense.

    Islam does not enforce this ridiculous rigidity, we have common sense and wisdom.

    so it was common sense for a 60 something year old man to have sex with a 9 year old girl and marry her when she was 6 who swings on her swing set and plays with dolls when Muhammad did it, but today they are not mentally mature until out of high school? is not the prophet the standard? did not allah allow this? he said nothing of wait till shes older, but as soon as you can. But i am sure very 6 year old girls in Arabia dreams of marrying her 60 plus old prince charming.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    Not by the sword because there were no mass conversions. Muslims fought with legitimate cusus belli when they fought the Romans and Persians. The people came to Islam on their own.

    Actually interesting that the Christian Arabs in Damascus aided the Muslims in seiging because the Roman Christians were racist against them.

    And everything I said has sources.

    You're the one copy and pasting arguments from Wikiislam and Thereligionofpeace, which shows your intent when discussing these matters. As a piece of advice not just for you but for anyone wanting to know the truth rather than confirm biases, all those websites are bottom of the barrel when it comes to argumentation. They're so rife with sophistic arguments, it's almost a joke.

    Plus they have such a clear agenda and bias, any objective person would know getting info from there is about as disingenuous as me trying to learn about Christianity from answering-christianity.com rather than actually studying the bible.

    once more the claim there was "no mass conversions" [despite there were] causes you to ignore Muslim history that included forced conversion of Arabia and beyond. This deserves it own topic. But here it truley shows your posts tend to be

    "bottom of the barrel when it comes to argumentation. They're so rife with sophistic arguments, it's almost a joke."

    Just for your info i have never used those website, i have used the sources i provide however, the koran, hadiths etc places you would have learned facts from your muslim sources that go against your claims. Have you sir read the koran?




  10. #38
    Muwahid

    I want to apologize if i seemed harsh at any time. I respect you defending your beliefs. I have thought on our discussion and think we are somewhat missing each others purpose. I agree with you Islam improved woman situation. I agree islam is not anti-woman and there are good aspects to islam. However my issue is it is not true. You have taken issue with the treatment of woman under islam and shown some positives. I agree. But my issue is not the positives but the negatives. I also am not saying islam is not true because of this just that it is hard to accept for me given some of the stuff on woman and islam.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    Muwahid

    I want to apologize if i seemed harsh at any time. I respect you defending your beliefs. I have thought on our discussion and think we are somewhat missing each others purpose. I agree with you Islam improved woman situation. I agree islam is not anti-woman and there are good aspects to islam. However my issue is it is not true. You have taken issue with the treatment of woman under islam and shown some positives. I agree. But my issue is not the positives but the negatives. I also am not saying islam is not true because of this just that it is hard to accept for me given some of the stuff on woman and islam.
    I have read a few stories about Muslim women who came to the west and lived as westerners, only to return to the ME & again enter into the Islamic culture because of the way that women are treated in the western culture. To them it was as if the women were nothing but sex toys and playthings for men. They felt much more respect by men in the Islamic world.

    I am not saying that either is "best". I am pointing out that what one person thinks is "good" or "normal" for someone else may not necessarily be correct, by that person's standards.
    There is no spoon.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    I am not saying that either is "best". I am pointing out that what one person thinks is "good" or "normal" for someone else may not necessarily be correct, by that person's standards.
    Which is why, I thought, we were all inclined to become libertarian, instead of collectivist.

    And why, I would think, God would be inclined to allow His children to find as many different ways as they need to come to Him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Which is why, I thought, we were all inclined to become libertarian, instead of collectivist.

    And why, I would think, God would be inclined to allow His children to find as many different ways as they need to come to Him.
    In absolute agreement.
    There is no spoon.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    I have read a few stories about Muslim women who came to the west and lived as westerners, only to return to the ME & again enter into the Islamic culture because of the way that women are treated in the western culture. To them it was as if the women were nothing but sex toys and playthings for men. They felt much more respect by men in the Islamic world.

    I am not saying that either is "best". I am pointing out that what one person thinks is "good" or "normal" for someone else may not necessarily be correct, by that person's standards.
    if true the majority are just the opposite. tell me are Muslims in america migrating to Muslim countries because of the treatment of woman or any other reason? why are millions migrating out of Islamic countries? where are the million of non Muslims migrating to Muslim countries because of the treatment?

    Having said that I dont think what you say is not true. Woman are treated terrible in secular progressive countries like the us. I also agree with you that different cultures view things different. So just as an exsample a 60 something year old man marrying a 6 year old girl and having sex with her when she is 9 is standard in Saudi Arabia before Muhammad, during his life, and still in Islamic nations today. As a westerner that is hard for me to accept because of my upbringing. Beating your wife and the various other issues I raised in my op about woman and the islamic view is also hard for me to accept.

    However I must point out my worldview is not secular, but christian. So I judge based on that as a standard. That is why my op is a christian looks at Islam. I try to judge by gods standard, otherwise their is no foundation but relativism and no way to know truth. i am christian not atheist.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Which is why, I thought, we were all inclined to become libertarian, instead of collectivist.

    And why, I would think, God would be inclined to allow His children to find as many different ways as they need to come to Him.
    He does, any way they come to jesus is fine. However He does not allow them to believe falsehood or follow any cultures standard of behavior and pretend its ok.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    if true the majority are just the opposite. tell me are Muslims in america migrating to Muslim countries because of the treatment of woman or any other reason? why are millions migrating out of Islamic countries? where are the million of non Muslims migrating to Muslim countries because of the treatment?

    Having said that I dont think what you say is not true. Woman are treated terrible in secular progressive countries like the us. I also agree with you that different cultures view things different. So just as an exsample a 60 something year old man marrying a 6 year old girl and having sex with her when she is 9 is standard in Saudi Arabia before Muhammad, during his life, and still in Islamic nations today. As a westerner that is hard for me to accept because of my upbringing. Beating your wife and the various other issues I raised in my op about woman and the islamic view is also hard for me to accept.

    However I must point out my worldview is not secular, but christian. So I judge based on that as a standard. That is why my op is a christian looks at Islam. I try to judge by gods standard, otherwise their is no foundation but relativism and no way to know truth. i am christian not atheist.
    Much of the immigration has to do with bombing the ME - if this was stopped things may look a bit different.

    Also, up until the end of the 19 century, the age of consent in both Europe & the US was usually 10-12 yrs old. Some places it was as high as 13, while in others it was as low as 7. So while in a modern day POV a man from the middle ages might look evil for having a child-wife, in that day and setting, it was not evil and was fairly commonplace.

    And, I am a Christian Minister.
    There is no spoon.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    He does, any way they come to jesus is fine. However He does not allow them to believe falsehood or follow any cultures standard of behavior and pretend its ok.
    Fair enough. After all, Mohammed came to Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Much of the immigration has to do with bombing the ME - if this was stopped things may look a bit different.

    Also, up until the end of the 19 century, the age of consent in both Europe & the US was usually 10-12 yrs old. Some places it was as high as 13, while in others it was as low as 7. So while in a modern day POV a man from the middle ages might look evil for having a child-wife, in that day and setting, it was not evil and was fairly commonplace.

    And, I am a Christian Minister.

    Ender? legalas? Tolkien fan? I love Tolkien. Are you aware he was libertarian? I wrote a short bio on him on this site here it is.

    J.R.R Tolkien Libertarian Creator Of Middle Earth

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?518671-J-R-R-Tolkien-Libertarian-Creator-Of-Middle-Earth



    As to your post you say you are christian minister. Than would you agree that just because some people think it is ok to act a certain way [ lets say having sex with captured slaves while you are already married aka muta in islam] does not make it ok in the sight of god?

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Which is why, I thought, we were all inclined to become libertarian, instead of collectivist.

    And why, I would think, God would be inclined to allow His children to find as many different ways as they need to come to Him.

    I was also just thinking. What do you think I am doing this for? if i truly loved Muslims and they were following a false prophet as i believe they are. Is not the most loving thing to try and show them that? to free them? maybe to put them on a path to truth?

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    Muwahid

    I want to apologize if i seemed harsh at any time. I respect you defending your beliefs. I have thought on our discussion and think we are somewhat missing each others purpose. I agree with you Islam improved woman situation. I agree islam is not anti-woman and there are good aspects to islam. However my issue is it is not true. You have taken issue with the treatment of woman under islam and shown some positives. I agree. But my issue is not the positives but the negatives. I also am not saying islam is not true because of this just that it is hard to accept for me given some of the stuff on woman and islam.
    Thanks for apologizing, even though I don't think you needed to apologize you were not harsh we're just passionate -- and I apologize if I seemed to assume your intent.

    I don't expect to be able to convince everyone on every point on Islam, if that was the case I could just simply convert everyone. My real goal is to step away from the fear-mongering which is unfortunately becoming ubiquitous in the age of the alt-right and reactionary politics on the right.

    I just like a measured approach when discussing religion, it's why rather than sticking to one hadith or verse, and over-analyzing the certain words used and coming up with ridiculous apologetic arguments, I like to look at the big picture first. I think if people did this they would find Islam was a positive for women, for minorities, for the downtrodden, it encourages charity, and kind treatment of everyone who is not actively against the Muslims, whether they are Muslim or non-Muslim.

    Now you may disagree with some of the theistic points, how we view Jesus, or the nature of God. Those are really interesting discussions to have and I encourage that; we've had some nice discussions here and I've learned a lot about Christianity from my friends on this website, and in the end it really made me feel like we're more brethren than we might think.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    I don't expect to be able to convince everyone on every point on Islam, if that was the case I could just simply convert everyone.
    I am not sure why you would try, since Islam has done a fine job at growing its numbers through its traditional "evangelism" method.
    My real goal is to step away from the fear-mongering which is unfortunately becoming ubiquitous in the age of the alt-right and reactionary politics on the right.
    My brother-in-law is the priest of an Albanian Orthodox parish which has a unique way of raising funds. Every year they have an icon auction. The parish has a collection of icons, and they auction off the right to take one home for the year.
    This came to be because in Albania, the Turks would regularly come into the churches and steal everything, and demand payment to get their holy things returned.
    It was a great fundraiser for the Turks, you see.
    But the faithful there and then gladly paid to have their holy icons returned, despite the cost, and despite the fact that they knew it was also a means for the Turks to track who wasn't yet converting to Islam.

    I just like a measured approach when discussing religion, it's why rather than sticking to one hadith or verse, and over-analyzing the certain words used and coming up with ridiculous apologetic arguments, I like to look at the big picture first.
    So what was the point of my story? It was to point out that my opinion of Islam wasn't great prior to my becoming Orthodox, but the more I find out about the history we have together, the less I think of Islam. And I can assure you that when I hear all these things - things which have nothing at all to do with Trumps demagoguery and which go back all the way to the beginning - the people saying them aren't telling me these things with hatred in their hearts. That would be more taboo for us than anything discussed in this thread so far. They are merely conveyed to remember - to stick to the big picture of our relationship.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I am not sure why you would try, since Islam has done a fine job at growing its numbers through its traditional "evangelism" method.

    My brother-in-law is the priest of an Albanian Orthodox parish which has a unique way of raising funds. Every year they have an icon auction. The parish has a collection of icons, and they auction off the right to take one home for the year.
    This came to be because in Albania, the Turks would regularly come into the churches and steal everything, and demand payment to get their holy things returned.
    It was a great fundraiser for the Turks, you see.
    But the faithful there and then gladly paid to have their holy icons returned, despite the cost, and despite the fact that they knew it was also a means for the Turks to track who wasn't yet converting to Islam.

    So what was the point of my story? It was to point out that my opinion of Islam wasn't great prior to my becoming Orthodox, but the more I find out about the history we have together, the less I think of Islam. And I can assure you that when I hear all these things - things which have nothing at all to do with Trumps demagoguery and which go back all the way to the beginning - the people saying them aren't telling me these things with hatred in their hearts. That would be more taboo for us than anything discussed in this thread so far. They are merely conveyed to remember - to stick to the big picture of our relationship.
    The Turks committed atrocities under modern secular-leaning regimes, famously after the Young Turks established power in the Ottoman Empire, they blamed the Armenians for their losses against the Soviets. They also had negative views of religion in general. They were not an Islamic ruling party, to put it lightly.

    Furthermore the actions of humans concern me far less than the tenets of the religion. Under Islamic land, it was said that pilgrimage for Christians to the holy land of Jerusalem was as safe as a trip from Paris to Rome, and in the over millennium of history of Islamic administration over Jerusalem there are only a few indications in which Christians were treated unfairly, such as under the Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim, of course his successor rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and restored the Christians rights to practice as they deemed fit.

    My point on reactionary politics is that the alt-right has an overarching theme to their message, namely that progressives hate western civilization and Judeo Christian values and want Muslims to 'invade' the west; to aid their point Islam and Muslims have been 'boogeymanned', and now more than ever are websites like thereligionofpeace, and wikiislam cited as if they're credible sources. We now have a generation of young people who fervently oppose Islam despite never having opened the Qur'an because of their political affiliations.

    When we look at Islam—from a broad perspective—I think it's abundantly clear it promotes peace and equality among individuals.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    Thanks for apologizing, even though I don't think you needed to apologize you were not harsh we're just passionate -- and I apologize if I seemed to assume your intent.

    I don't expect to be able to convince everyone on every point on Islam, if that was the case I could just simply convert everyone. My real goal is to step away from the fear-mongering which is unfortunately becoming ubiquitous in the age of the alt-right and reactionary politics on the right.

    I just like a measured approach when discussing religion, it's why rather than sticking to one hadith or verse, and over-analyzing the certain words used and coming up with ridiculous apologetic arguments, I like to look at the big picture first. I think if people did this they would find Islam was a positive for women, for minorities, for the downtrodden, it encourages charity, and kind treatment of everyone who is not actively against the Muslims, whether they are Muslim or non-Muslim.

    Now you may disagree with some of the theistic points, how we view Jesus, or the nature of God. Those are really interesting discussions to have and I encourage that; we've had some nice discussions here and I've learned a lot about Christianity from my friends on this website, and in the end it really made me feel like we're more brethren than we might think.
    And I can see you do all those things very well. I want to point out my op is on purpose not fair to islam, it is rather what i see as the worst of islam and the causes to reject it in my view. I agree there is much good in islam as you have pointed out and that there are Christians as you describe that are unfair i agree as well, just as there are muslims who do the same. That is the ugly nature of the beast. I think you are correct in dialogue is the best medicine for bigotry and the like. And i thank you for that. Thank you for your discussion and posts.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    The Turks committed atrocities under modern secular-leaning regimes, famously after the Young Turks established power in the Ottoman Empire, they blamed the Armenians for their losses against the Soviets. They also had negative views of religion in general. They were not an Islamic ruling party, to put it lightly.

    Furthermore the actions of humans concern me far less than the tenets of the religion. Under Islamic land, it was said that pilgrimage for Christians to the holy land of Jerusalem was as safe as a trip from Paris to Rome, and in the over millennium of history of Islamic administration over Jerusalem there are only a few indications in which Christians were treated unfairly, such as under the Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim, of course his successor rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and restored the Christians rights to practice as they deemed fit.

    My point on reactionary politics is that the alt-right has an overarching theme to their message, namely that progressives hate western civilization and Judeo Christian values and want Muslims to 'invade' the west; to aid their point Islam and Muslims have been 'boogeymanned', and now more than ever are websites like thereligionofpeace, and wikiislam cited as if they're credible sources. We now have a generation of young people who fervently oppose Islam despite never having opened the Qur'an because of their political affiliations.

    When we look at Islam—from a broad perspective—I think it's abundantly clear it promotes peace and equality among individuals.
    That's always been my POV.

    I have read the Qu'ran, (as well as many other holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Sutras, etc) and have had to show people who & what the "people of the book" were- and are.

    Muslims I have known have been friendly, peaceful people and the baloney spread about Islam is ridiculous.

    And, I am a Christian minister.
    There is no spoon.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    I was also just thinking. What do you think I am doing this for? if i truly loved Muslims and they were following a false prophet as i believe they are. Is not the most loving thing to try and show them that? to free them? maybe to put them on a path to truth?
    I think you have the best intentions. I think you may also be trying to justify your own dogma. I think Jesus demands of us an open mind, so we will know truth if it is ever kind enough to bite us in the butt.

    I also think any prophet can potentially be both a false prophet and a true prophet at the same time. A true prophet leads a soul to God, while a false prophet leads souls away from God. Someone can inadvertently do both; once fame comes to a prophet, people can and do misuse his or her wisdom.

    The goal is God. Jesus said He is the Way and the Light. But He is only the goal in the sense of the Trilogy. He is God, and God is the goal. The wisdom of Jesus worked for me, and I recommend the same to anyone. That said, if someone does find God, it isn't my place to tell them they took the wrong road to get to Him.

    Is it yours?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-27-2018 at 08:50 PM.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    That's always been my POV.

    I have read the Qu'ran, (as well as many other holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Sutras, etc) and have had to show people who & what the "people of the book" were- and are.

    Muslims I have known have been friendly, peaceful people and the baloney spread about Islam is ridiculous.

    And, I am a Christian minister.

    Your much more than a minister, your a Tolkien fan.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I think you have the best intentions. I think you may also be trying to justify your own dogma. I think Jesus demands of us an open mind, so we will know truth if it is ever kind enough to bite us in the butt.

    I also think any prophet can potentially be both a false prophet and a true prophet at the same time. A true prophet leads a soul to God, while a false prophet leads souls away from God. Someone can inadvertently do both; once fame comes to a prophet, people can and do misuse his or her wisdom.

    The goal is God. Jesus said He is the Way and the Light. But He is only the goal in the sense of the Trilogy. He is God, and God is the goal. The wisdom of Jesus worked for me, and I recommend the same to anyone. That said, if someone does find God, it isn't my place to tell them they took the wrong road to get to Him.

    Is it yours?

    I think we are off topic so i shall be fast. I think its gods position to tell them not mine or yours, i think he did so in the bible.

  30. #56
    I agree. If I were pursuing a mission like that, I'd study up on what they believe about Jesus, and see if that helps me be more persuasive.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    Your much more than a minister, your a Tolkien fan.
    And Robert A. Heinlein.
    There is no spoon.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    That's always been my POV.

    I have read the Qu'ran, (as well as many other holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Sutras, etc) and have had to show people who & what the "people of the book" were- and are.

    Muslims I have known have been friendly, peaceful people and the baloney spread about Islam is ridiculous.

    And, I am a Christian minister.
    I think the god-fearing do look for the best in other people even of other persuasions because if you're truly god-fearing then you really do want others to believe rather than not believe. It's a dreadful existence to think the majority of my neighbors are destined to hell.

    In general I believe nearly all religions are divinely inspired. While I also believe interpolation exists in many texts, I don't believe the underlying message would persist as long as it has without a godly message.

    As a Muslim we are told anyone with an atoms weight of faith will make it to heaven (even if they first are punished for evils they've done first). I think this extends to anyone who would believe had they been shown the unadulterated truth and the only people damned are people who truly sold their souls for on this earth.

    Plus I think for us in the modern era, believing in God is half the battle when disbelief and apathy is so ubiquitous.
    “I'm real, Ron, I'm real!” — Rick Santorum
    “Congratulations.” — Ron Paul¹

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid View Post
    When we look at Islam—from a broad perspective—I think it's abundantly clear it promotes peace and equality among individuals.
    So I take it you are in favor of returning the Hagia Sophia?
    Or perhaps something as simple as finally relinquishing the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?
    Maybe you're for reform in Saudi Arabia, and improvement of the treatment of Christians there? Or Iran?

    From a broad perspective, going all the way back to Mohammed, the exact polar opposite of what you stated is abundantly clear.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    So I take it you are in favor of returning the Hagia Sophia?
    Or perhaps something as simple as finally relinquishing the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?
    Maybe you're for reform in Saudi Arabia, and improvement of the treatment of Christians there? Or Iran?

    From a broad perspective, going all the way back to Mohammed, the exact polar opposite of what you stated is abundantly clear.
    Hmmmmmm......


    Pakistani Muslims Form Human Chain To Protect Christians During ...
    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/.../m...stan_n_4057381....
    Oct 8, 2013 - Hand in hand as many as 200-300 people formed a human chain outside the St Anthony's Church adjacent to the District Police Lines at the Empress Road, in a show of solidarity with the victims of the Peshawar church attack two weeks back, which resulted in over a 100 deaths. The twin suicide attack on ...

    Muslims protect Christians under attack from Isis-linked group as they ...
    www.independent.co.uk › News › World › Asia
    Jun 3, 2017 - More than 160 civilians walked out of the besieged Philippines city of Marawi just after dawn on Saturday, deceiving Islamist fighters they encountered by hiding the identity of the many Christians among them. The audacious exodus came after text message warnings that a major assault by Philippines ...


    Thousands of Egyptian Muslims Serve as Human Shields to Protect ...
    https://parliamentofreligions.org/.....human-shields-...
    from Ahram Online. Muslims turned up in droves for the Coptic Christmas mass Thursday night, offering their bodies, and lives, as “shields” to Egypt's threatened Christian community. Egypt's majority Muslim population stuck to its word last Thursday night. What had been a promise of solidarity to the weary Coptic community ...


    Christians Are Given Hijabs by Muslims in Marawi to Help Them ...
    http://www.newsweek.com/christians-f...arawi-help-the...
    Jun 15, 2017 - "Some of the stories that stuck were Muslims helping protect Christian workers by letting them borrow a hijab," said Dr. Gioia Ancheta, head of the psychosocial therapy team. The conflict began after dozens of gunmen swarmed across the Muslim-majority city of Marawi after the Philippine security forces ...
    There is no spoon.

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