EVs can't work, and are just stepping stones to banning all personal transportation

[ClaytonB]

If it's coal, that differential shrinks. And still the losses shipping power after it has been generated to various outlets and storing it in batteries create big losses all along the line. ICE vehicles use driveshafts for that step--so close to 100% efficient that the losses can't even be measured.

You can't just blindly compare the two. And my money is that a detailed breakdown would show that the losses in power generation/distribution far outweigh the transport losses of trucks delivering fuel to local fuel-stations, particularly if you compare apples-to-apples in respect to fuel availability versus charging-station availability. In other words, you can't count the inefficiencies of delivering gasoline to locations where there are no charging stations. And when you count the inefficiencies in electric were there charging stations at all those locations, electric would come out much worse, not better.

[acptulsa]

Oh, I don't want to sound like an $#@!, but a battery is chemical energy.

Not until you put energy in it, it isn't.

The analog of the power plant for gasoline is the sun, producing plants etc. which have turned to oil.

It is if it's a solar plant, yes. If the power plant burns fuel, on the other hand, fuel is fuel is fuel.

[pcosmar]

Not until you put energy in it, it isn't.



It is if it's a solar plant, yes. If the power plant burns fuel, on the other hand, fuel is fuel is fuel.

Hydro Electric.. Most of the West Coast is Dam Powered. as is my Home in Michigan.There are a lot of Power producing Dams in this country..'
Far more than Coal burners.

[Matt4Liberty]

Hydro Electric.. Most of the West Coast is Dam Powered. as is my Home in Michigan.There are a lot of Power producing Dams in this country..'
Far more than Coal burners.

And then we have both Oregon and Washington conveniently destroying the dams

[pcosmar]

And then we have both Oregon and Washington conveniently destroying the dams

Bull$#@!
There are several Hydro plants..
Cummings is building Hydrolysis Plants on one in Washington..
Hydro is currently dominant..

and Hydrogen can power anything.. Big Rigs first.

[ClaytonB]

Bull$#@!
There are several Hydro plants..
Cummings is building Hydrolysis Plants on one is Washington..
Hydro is currently dominant..

and Hydrogen can power anything.. Big Rigs first.

I grew up in the PNW and can confirm, basically everything there is hydro power (for now). I'm sure the politicians will find a way to ruin it, though, because they've proved a million times over that they can ruin literally anything and everything. But that's a separate topic.

But I have a question for you -- acptulsa mentioned the example of diesel-electric train engines. Surely you admit that oil and electric are simply suited to different applications? Both technologies arrived on the scene about the same time in history, and we've always had both, side-by-side. Only the politicians could turn this into a "Red (oil) versus Blue (electric)" divide-and-conquer issue? Why is it "winner takes all"? Why isn't it that electric is good for some things, and oil is good for other things? You could be right that electric has been under-developed in certain sectors as a result of the historical dominance of oil in those sectors, but I don't think we "need" to "electrify" all cars/trucks. The physics just doesn't support the current EV hype. EVs are physically incapable of supplanting oil-based transport without a simultaneous elimination of most transportation, especially single-family vehicles. As an EV enthusiast (nothing wrong with that), surely you can also see The Agenda?

[pcosmar]

I grew up in the PNW and can confirm, basically everything there is hydro power (for now). I'm sure the politicians will find a way to ruin it, though, because they've proved a million times over that they can ruin literally anything and everything. But that's a separate topic.

But I have a question for you -- acptulsa mentioned the example of diesel-electric train engines.

The Trains are what convinced me.. Freight is moved by ELECTRIC MOTORS.. The Diesel motor could be Replaced by Hydrogen Fuel Cell,,or a Hydrogen ICE motor.. Hydrogen is easily Produced,,and of Unlimited supply,,
There are a lot of uses for Oil,,but as a Disposable Fuel is Wasteful.

[CaptUSA]

Only the politicians could turn this into a "Red (oil) versus Blue (electric)" divide-and-conquer issue? Why is it "winner takes all"? Why isn't it that electric is good for some things, and oil is good for other things? You could be right that electric has been under-developed in certain sectors as a result of the historical dominance of oil in those sectors, but I don't think we "need" to "electrify" all cars/trucks. The physics just doesn't support the current EV hype. EVs are physically incapable of supplanting oil-based transport without a simultaneous elimination of most transportation, especially single-family vehicles. As an EV enthusiast (nothing wrong with that), surely you can also see The Agenda?

This is the story of my life right now. Although, it's more than "only the politicians". Politicians respond to their own interests - first and second being getting elected and re-elected. Gotta maintain that power. But there's something more broad that makes those policies attractive to a large portion of their base.

This is a human condition. People perceive a threat and like hearing politicians tell them that they'll take care of the threat. In this case, the threat is climate catastrophe gobbledygook. It really doesn't matter what the threat is - politicians and central planners of all stripes will use it for their own benefits. And if there isn't a real threat?? Easy - just exaggerate one or create one out of whole cloth. The only way out of any of that is through true education. NOT PROPAGANDA!

[pcosmar]

Not red or blue,,
Just pure efficiency.



The first vehicle that creates its own fuel.

[ClaytonB]

The Trains are what convinced me.. Freight is moved by ELECTRIC MOTORS.. The Diesel motor could be Replaced by Hydrogen Fuel Cell,,or a Hydrogen ICE motor.. Hydrogen is easily Produced,,and of Unlimited supply,,
There are a lot of uses for Oil,,but as a Disposable Fuel is Wasteful.

Right, but why are diesel-electric used in trains but not in semi-trucks? The reason is as acptulsa has explained -- from the standpoint of the engineering design-problem, an electric motor is just a drivetrain (transmission, drive-shaft, differential) with a lot of copper wire and magnets in it. Diesel-electrics use the electric motor because it's more efficient for the operating-range of trains (speed, load, train-tracks). The reason that trucks use standard transmission/drive-shaft/differential is that... it is more efficient than an electric motor would be, for the operating-range of trucks. If it was more efficient to run a diesel generator under the hood and power the wheels with electric motors, somebody would have done it a long time ago and saved a gazillion dollars. It hasn't been done because... it would be a net loss. So that was my point, have you considered the fact that the engineers have looked at all these designs already and gave them a thumbs-down for very good physical reasons that have nothing to do with politics?

[acptulsa]

Diesel-electrics use the electric motor because it's more efficient for the operating-range of trains (speed, load, train-tracks).

There's efficiency and there's efficiency. So, you could put it that way--but in this case the efficiency comes in the form of reducing downtime. Mechanical drivelines are awfully efficient. But they have yet to invent the clutch that the massive torque of a 150 liter turbocharged diesel can't turn to asbestos powder in two seconds flat.

it was more efficient to run a diesel generator under the hood and power the wheels with electric motors, somebody would have done it a long time ago and saved a gazillion dollars. It hasn't been done because... it would be a net loss.

Yes, though in this case the efficiency is somewhat dictated by the bureaucracy. By the time you include motors and a generator and either batteries or a resistor grid for braking (because hills don't just go up, they also go down) you hardly have room under the weight limit cap for cargo.

That's one regulation that's unavoidable. You just can't design all your bridges to handle an infinite amount of weight.

[Dr.3D]

Bull$#@!
There are several Hydro plants..
Cummings is building Hydrolysis Plants on one is Washington..
Hydro is currently dominant..

and Hydrogen can power anything.. Big Rigs first.

Federal energy agency approves plan to remove Klamath River’s dams

[pcosmar]

Federal energy agency approves plan to remove Klamath River’s dams

4 old dams on ONE River....

The four dams were built between 1918 and 1962 by what is now PacifiCorp to generate electricity. But today they contribute to less than 2% of the power the company generates.

and to add
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ducing-states/
Washington State is the Top Hydro producer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._in_Washington

[ClaytonB]

There's efficiency and there's efficiency. So, you could put it that way--but in this case the efficiency comes in the form of reducing downtime. Mechanical drivelines are awfully efficient. But they have yet to invent the clutch that the massive torque of a 150 liter turbocharged diesel can't turn to asbestos powder in two seconds flat.



Yes, though in this case the efficiency is somewhat dictated by the bureaucracy. By the time you include motors and a generator and either batteries or a resistor grid for braking (because hills don't just go up, they also go down) you hardly have room under the weight limit cap for cargo.

That's one regulation that's unavoidable. You just can't design all your bridges to handle an infinite amount of weight.

[pcosmar]

Hydrogen fuel cell trains are on the fast track

https://www.cummins.com/news/2021/08...are-fast-track

The Coradia iLint is powered by Cummins fuel cell modules that run on hydrogen. These modules are designed to turn existing, non-electrified infrastructure into zero-emission rail lines. After an initial test demonstration in Germany in 2017 that covered more than 180,000 km, the Coradia iLint has run demonstrations throughout Austria, Netherlands and France. It has been in successful commercial service since 2018. In 2021, the Coradia iLint in Germany earned the European Railway Award as the first hydrogen passenger train in mainline operation.

https://railway-news.com/nestle-wate...freight-train/

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/h...ms-173272.html

[Swordsmyth]

4 old dams on ONE River....


and to add
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ducing-states/
Washington State is the Top Hydro producer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._in_Washington

If you think they won't come for the others you are sadly mistaken.

[Anti Federalist]

Taking for Granted

https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2023...g-for-granted/

By eric - January 3, 2023

When you’re young, you assume you always will be. Just as we assume we’ll always be able to just go when we need to go somewhere – or just feel like going somewhere. Anywhere. No matter how far away. Without having to plan the trip – as you would if you were going to get there by the bus, say.

Just get in your car – and drive.

For more than 100 years, Americans have assumed this is how it always will be, because that’s how it has been and why would it ever be any different? They have organized their lives around this taken-for-granted freedom of movement, this ease of movement.

*People could – and did – take jobs that were far from where they lived because it was no problem to get from where they lived to where they worked. Whatever hours they worked. Whatever schedule their kids were on.

They did not have to live close enough to where they worked to be able to use the bus to get to work.

Or train. Or bicycle. Or walk.

It was just as easy to visit friends and family who didn’t live close by – or who lived nowhere near bus/train routes. Random travel – each of us on our schedule, spur of the moment – was our common inheritance. Kids became almost-adults upon turning 16, at which age they gave up their bikes – and walking – for driving.

The car gave them – gave us all – this freedom.

The electric car is going to take it away.

It will do this three ways, the obvious way being via economics.

Millions of people will be driven out of cars because they will not be able to afford an electric car – which those behind the push for “electrification” are working to assure will within just a few years be the only kinds of cars people will be allowed to buy. As has already been decreed in several states.

But it won’t be just that.

In order to assure people don’t have the option to continue driving non-electric cars already in their possession, laws will be passed making driving one – even holding onto one – at least as expensive as owning (and driving) an electric car.

This will be done via “progressive” increases in the cost of vehicle registration for non-electric vehicles, as is already being done in China. Or by “polluter pays” taxes – premised on the preposterous idea that carbon dioxide is a “pollutant.” Which it is only in the sense that the drugs being pushed by the same people are “vaccines.”

Meanwhile, EVs get more rather than less expensive to buy – contrary to the lies told that prices would go down rather than up as more were made. They have gone up – in just one year – by about $5,000 on average for the identical model, 2022 vs. 2023. This being the inevitable result of the cost-rising of the non-renewable lithium upon which all EVs in production depend. There is more demand than supply can keep up with. This was a predictable thing. In other words, a known thing.

See “safe and “effective.”

Electricity isn’t getting any cheaper, either – especially at the so-called “fast” chargers that EVs depend on to recover any significant charge in less than several hours, as at home. The cost of this electricity will also go up, inevitably – as demand applies pressure to insufficient supply. Charging at home will also cost more for the same reason. And there is the cost – almost never mentioned when EVs are discussed – of being able to instill any significant charge in an EV at home in less than several days’ time, unless the home’s electrical system is upgraded such that it is possible to plug the EV into a 240V outlet.

This assumes one owns a home. One with a garage too.

Renters would need to persuade their landlord to make the “investment.” If there’s no garage – if you park on the street – it is unlikely you’ll have a cable (not an extension cord) heavy-gauge enough to reach wherever the 240V outlet is.

But it’s the other two costs that will serve to take away the freedom to go wherever we wanted to, whenever we wanted to go there – even for those who can afford to buy an EV.

They are the costs “baked in” to electric cars that are arguably the most expensive aspects of owning one.

And they are intertwined.

Driving an EV regularly any significant distance will heavily discharge its battery pack. This taxes the battery pack, contributing to a shortening of its useful life. It is better for the battery pack – in terms of maximizing its service life – to avoid deeply discharging it. But that means driving less – or recharging more.

But the more one “fast” charges, the more it taxes the battery.

And the more one taxes an EV battery by discharging and “fast” charging it, the sooner the EV’s battery will need to be replaced – at a cost that even people who can afford to buy a new EV will probably be reluctant to pay. Instead, they will throw their battery-tired EV away – and get a new one. A few people may be able to afford this. But the people who, in the past, could afford a used non-electric car will not able to afford a $20,0000 replacement battery for a $15,000 used EV.

And none of us will ever again be able to just drive – without thought, without care – anywhere we like, whenever we like. No more open roads and wide-open spaces.

The EV will end all that.

As intended.

[ClaytonB]

[CaptUSA]

Well, maybe not as simple as the meme, but yes.

Utilities are HEAVILY regulated by government. More so than just about any other entity. It only stands to reason that government wants you to rely on methods of obtaining energy where they have almost complete control. Also, why socialists love trains so much. The controlled movement of people is so much more predictable than freedom. The ability to control is the central planner's dream.

[A Son of Liberty]

Well, maybe not as simple as the meme, but yes.

Utilities are HEAVILY regulated by government. More so than just about any other entity. It only stands to reason that government wants you to rely on methods of obtaining energy where they have almost complete control. Also, why socialists love trains so much. The controlled movement of people is so much more predictable than freedom. The ability to control is the central planner's dream.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CaptUSA again.

Gonna have to go shoot some rep at some randos... owe ya. Well said.

[acptulsa]

https://twitter.com/realstewpeters/s...22461438001153

[acptulsa]

[Anti Federalist]

[A Son of Liberty]

That's just ONE of the machines that it take to move that much earth.

A loader does not dig. It carries away earth that has been dug. Most likely by a very similarly large excavator, which consumes as much or more than the fuel that this machine consumes.

More likely than this loader doing anything in the process of moving the earth, the aforementioned excavator is loading multiple 777's which are making round trips from where the excavator is digging to wherever the spoil pile is and back.

There is no way to produce these materials without cold hard steel and lots and lots of oil and gas. NONE.

[pcosmar]

There is no way to produce these materials without cold hard steel and lots and lots of oil and gas. NONE.

wrong
https://www.conequip.com/wp/news/lie...ered-excavator
https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/news/2020/...lled-excavator

[A Son of Liberty]

There is no way to produce these materials without cold hard steel and lots and lots of oil and gas. NONE.

wrong
https://www.conequip.com/wp/news/lie...ered-excavator
https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/news/2020/...lled-excavator

You just showed me two pics of cold hard steel made from lots and lots of oil and gas. I have no idea what your point is...

I'm all for running these pieces of equipment on fuels other than diesel, I really am... but if you think these pieces of equipment aren't made from and by oil and gas, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Sorry Pete, but you're just out of your league here. ALL "alternative" energy is ENTIRELY dependent upon oil and gas. Period. That's just all there is to it.

[Anti Federalist]

Energy Shortages: Britons to be Paid to Not Use Electricity Between 5pm and 6pm on Monday

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/202...6pm-on-monday/

PETER CADDLE 23 Jan 2023

More than a million UK households will be offered money for them to cut their electricity use between 5pm and 6pm on Monday in a move that follows the National Grid bringing back mothballed coal plants today to ensure supply.

Some people across Britain are to be offered up to £20 (~$24.76) to dramatically reduce their electricity usage between 5pm and 6pm on Monday evening in an attempt to curb the country’s electricity use in the face of potential shortages.

It will be the first time such payments will be issued under the National Grid’s Demand Flexibility Service, which was introduced late last year in the hopes of preventing power blackouts.

Now, according to an online statement by the energy board, the emergency system is planned to be engaged for the first time this evening, with freezing cold temperatures reportedly causing problems for energy availability in Britain.

So far, three coal-fired power plants in the country have been ordered to make themselves ready for use to combat the shortages, with a combination of freezing temperatures, short days, and little wind hammering the UK’s green energy production at a time when significant supply is needed to heat and light people’s homes.

Wind energy in particular has appeared to have dropped dramatically, going from making up just under 58 per cent of the UK’s electricity supply one week ago to only 25 per cent on Saturday, pushing the country back onto more reliable alternatives.

While the National Grid insists that there are no chances of blackouts, it has admitted that the country’s energy supply has been significantly reduced, and that energy-saving measures are needed to “maintain the buffer of spare capacity we need”.

“Our forecasts show electricity supply margins are expected to be tighter than normal on Monday evening,” a statement from the body on Sunday evening read. “We have instructed coal-fired power units to be available to increase electricity supplies should it be needed tomorrow evening.”

“We are also activating a Live [Demand Flexibility Service] event between 5-6pm tomorrow,” it continued. “This does not mean electricity supplies are at risk and people should not be worried.”

According to a report by the Daily Mail, the more than a million households eligible to take part in the energy-saving project will be asked to refrain from using high-consumption appliances such as ovens, washing machines, tumble dryers, dishwashers and certain games consoles.

These households will be eligible for the programme as a result of having controversial “smart meters” with an eligible provider within their home, with the technology recently emerging as a point of controversy within the British press for the reason that it gives unprecedented control of electricity consumption to electricity companies.

Though the plan is voluntary, with many in Britain struggling to make ends meet as a result of the massively inflated price of fuel, food and electricity, the opportunity to be paid for saving energy for one hour may be a defacto necessity.

What’s more, these same households may be handed another opportunity to turn off their appliances for cash on Tuesday, with the National Grid reportedly saying that they may implement the measure again tomorrow should the supply situation not improve.

Officials from within the energy operator also have reportedly suggested that such energy-saving events could become a regular feature of winters in the UK, with one even suggesting that it will help boost the UK’s green agenda goals.

“It is something we strongly believe in,” Craig Dyke, Head of National Control at National Grid ESO, reportedly remarked. “It provides flexibility for the system and the consumer. We see this as a growing market.”

“We see this as a world-leading step forward into a space where we can only grow and drive forward towards Net Zero,” the official went on to say.

[Occam's Banana]

“We are also activating a Live [Demand Flexibility Service] event between 5-6pm tomorrow,” it continued. “This does not mean electricity supplies are at risk and people should not be worried.”

Though the plan is voluntary, with many in Britain struggling to make ends meet as a result of the massively inflated price of fuel, food and electricity, the opportunity to be paid for saving energy for one hour may be a defacto necessity.

Officials from within the energy operator also have reportedly suggested that such energy-saving events could become a regular feature of winters in the UK, with one even suggesting that it will help boost the UK’s green agenda goals.

“It is something we strongly believe in,” Craig Dyke, Head of National Control at National Grid ESO, reportedly remarked. “It provides flexibility for the system and the consumer. We see this as a growing market.”

“We see this as a world-leading step forward into a space where we can only grow and drive forward towards Net Zero,” the official went on to say.

"I love it when people say that Ayn Rand's villains were too over-the-top and unrealistic." -- Michael Malice

[Anti Federalist]

Brits Pay More to Charge Electric Car than to Gas Up

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...r-than-gas-up/

JOHN NOLTE 24 Jan 2023

Per mile traveled, our British friends are now paying more to charge their electric cars than to gas them up.

Do stories come any more feel-good than this?

No, no, they do not:

Rapid charge points used by motorists topping up on long drives are now nearly £10 more expensive than filling up a car with petrol, the RAC revealed last week.

But research from the AA published on Monday finds that recharging an electric car even using a slow public charger at peak times can be more expensive, per mile driven afterwards, than for refuelling a comparable petrol car.

Jack Cousens, the AA’s head of roads policy and recharging, said: “While pump prices are falling, electricity prices are going in the other direction, but we are hopeful prices could tail off later this year.”

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *another deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHA…

But at least these smug electric car drivers are decreasing their carbon footprint.

Oh, wait, they aren’t… You can’t make electricity without burning fossil fuels, so….

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHA… okay, I’ll stop now. HAHAHAHA… Sorry, that just slipped out.

So, according to this hilarious story, “Topping up the e-Corsa’s charge by 80pc on a slow charger at peak times results in a cost of 16.18p per mile.”

But.

The “costs (of a petrol Corsa) at around 14.45 pence per mile[.]”

Question: What’s left to feel smug about after it costs more to drive your electric car than a car-car?

Well, I guess you can pretend to feel all kinds of virtuous about saving Mother Earth in your Prius, but Global Warming is a hoax. So … you’re not saving anything. You’re certainly not saving money — lol. What’s more, no matter how much denial you conjure up, fossil fuels are still being burned to supply you with the electricity for your car, which, by the way, costs more than filling up your car with fossil fuels.

This is a perfect example of why the free market must be our guide — not politics and certainly not the fake science of Climate Change (which is a hoax). The government, be it third-world states such as California or our broken, bloated, and corrupt federal government, interfering in the market is always a disaster.

Nothing would make me happier than a magic car that runs on moonbeams or leprechaun poop. If Elon Musk comes up with an affordable vehicle that runs on sunshine or lemon drops or seawater, all the better. The free market supports what works and what’s efficient. The free market weeds out the Betamax and gives us VHS. That’s the only way massive and lasting cultural changes happen.

Everything but the free market is pushing electric vehicles. Instead, it’s all government meddling, partisan politics, a false sense of moral superiority, emotional blackmail, and peer pressure.

Time and time again, over more than a century now, we have watched as managed economies and markets fail. People at large know a good thing when they see it. Okay, not always. But the free market is a whole lot more reliable than the alternative.

[Anti Federalist]