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Thread: Question For The Christians Of The Board

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Absolutely not. Now, since you're cherry picking one sentence out of all of that, my point was that, yes, proper government to man relations are based on proper man to man relations which, itself, is a product of the the spiritual brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God. S_F tried to separate moral self-governance by saying that "liberty" in the NT wasn't germane to the way man should govern himself.

    What S_F is doing is he's contradicting the very foundation of Liberty by claiming that man lacks a spiritual nature. He's setting up the terms to be that man cannot self-govern politically as if man cannot have a spiritual relationship with God. As usual, he's wrong. And as usual, he's doing so in order to project his own doctrinal superiority. As you may know, S_F believes that man is predestined. And I'm certain that he believes he is predestined to recieve Grace. So by S_F's model, man cannot apply moral standard politically.

    As far as your little line about Christians not being welcomed, I was very clear to say that it is S_F who is purposefully dividing believers. And if you can't see that, then you're being intentionally ignorant of that fact. Everyone else here can see it. I'm trying to speak up for Believers. So don't spin my words, please.

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Natural Citizen again."

    2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
    17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Natural Citizen again."

    2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
    17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
    Here's that verse in context:
    12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
    Don't you think that Paul's saying that these people with liberty where the Spirit of the Lord is, are exclusively Christians, and not all of humanity?

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Here's that verse in context:


    Don't you think that Paul's saying that these people with liberty where the Spirit of the Lord is, are exclusively Christians, and not all of humanity?

    Paul was setting forth the truth, men can either take it and believe or turn their backs on it. Not all men are Christians [Christ - men].

    John 8:32 (KJV)
    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Paul was setting forth the truth, men can either take it and believe or turn their backs on it. Not all men are Christians [Christ - men].

    John 8:32 (KJV)
    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    Then doesn't that passage support what I was saying, against what NC said in the post you gave him the +rep for?

    The only people who have a spiritual brotherhood with one another under the fatherhood of God, and the liberty that goes with that, are Christians.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Then doesn't that passage support what I was saying, against what NC said in the post you gave him the +rep for?

    The only people who have a spiritual brotherhood with one another under the fatherhood of God, and the liberty that goes with that, are Christians.

    You act as though being a Christian is some sort of denomination--it's not. It's not a religion, it is a reality. You either Love God/Jesus/Holy Spirit or you love Satan. It is really quite simple.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    You seem to be saying that it's not enough just to disclaim the use of violence to subjugate others under one's own rule, but one must also agree with your philosophical basis for doing that, and can't reach that same conclusion by some other philosophy.

    Perhaps some professing Christians will claim that all human beings are spiritual brothers under the fatherhood of God. But that belief contradicts Christianity, which teaches that one must be a Christian to have God as one's Father and spiritual brotherhood with other Christians, and it's not just some sectarian offshoot of divisive Christians who think so.
    To repeat, I said that proper man to man relations are the product of the spiritual brothers under the fatherhood of God. That's what I said.

    I did not once say claim that all human beings are spiritual brothers under the fatherhood of God. Some choose otherwise. However, all men have the spiritual nature to receive Grace. And herein lies the problem. S_F, and perhaps you as well if I recall your thought on it over the years, rejects that fact. Predestination is an unbiblical fiction. Jesus did not doe in vain. Predestination is something that some friends use to divide believers in order to pad their own egos and to talk down to other believers as if they're part of some inner circle of worthier-than-though Christian.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-12-2017 at 11:25 AM.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    You act as though being a Christian is some sort of denomination--it's not. It's not a religion, it is a reality. You either Love God/Jesus/Holy Spirit or you love Satan. It is really quite simple.
    Thank You. It really is quite simple. The problem is that some friends want to divide Believers as a matter of activism in order to justify their own doctrinal superiority.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post

    The only people who have a spiritual brotherhood with one another under the fatherhood of God, and the liberty that goes with that, are Christians.
    I agree with this. I don't know why you are projecting the notion that I don't. In fact, this is precisely what I was saying. I asked you to not spin my words. Did I not?

    My problem, and everyone elses problem as well, is that S_F (as a matter of theological activism) purposefully creates division among Christians. S_F condemns the Christianity of about 99% of the Believers here. S_F thinks he's of the position to verify everyone's Christianity based on his 16th century doctrine that tells him that God predestined him to receive Grace and that he is a tue Christian versus most everyone else here. What an arrogant turd. As if no other man here beyond him has the ability and nature to repent and to know God. What a load of self-righteous horse pucky.

    That's the problem. He is a divider. His goal is not peace through religion. His goal is chaos. That man has openly professed that he believes he's in a spiritual war with other professed Christians here. More than once, he's professed that.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-12-2017 at 11:46 AM.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    I agree with this. I don;t know why you are projecting the notion that I don't. In fact, this is precisely what I was saying. I asked you to not spin myu words. Did I not>

    My problem is that S_F (as a matter of activism) Creates division among Christians. S_F condemns about 99% of the Believers here. S_F thinks he;s of the position to verifyu everyone's Christianity.

    That's the problem.
    You believe that now? Because before you said all the people in the country were spiritual brothers.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    You believe that now? Because before you said all the people in the country were spiritual brothers.
    Oh, here you are!

    You seem to be missing it in the other thread, so I'll ask you where you are, as well as where you ain't. A self-confessed former atheist running around laying childish sophist traps for Christians to stick their feet into is a great service to the Lord by means of... how, exactly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Oh, here you are!

    You seem to be missing it in the other thread, so I'll ask you where you are, as well as where you ain't. A self-confessed former atheist running around laying childish sophist traps for Christians to stick their feet into is a great service to the Lord by means of... how, exactly?
    Uh...... Huh?

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So I say, the Pharisees accused Jesus of sinning, and you ask, where did Jesus sin? And before quoting chapter and verse, I display enough lawyerly presence of mind to remind you that I did not accuse Jesus of anything, the Pharisees did.

    And suddenly you don't want to play any more. When someone proves able to sidestep your childish little sophist traps, it really puts you off your feed. Doesn't it?

    And a self-confessed former atheist running around laying childish sophist traps for Christians to stick their feet into is a great service to the Lord by means of... what, exactly?
    Go ahead. Tell us how this conversation suddenly became so overwhelmingly interesting you suddenly forgot all about that other conversation where you had just been inserting a comment a minute.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 06-12-2017 at 11:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    ..
    Aw, hey, acptulsa. How you been, man. Good to see you.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Go ahead. Tell us how this conversation suddenly became so overwhelmingly interesting you suddenly forgot all about that other conversation where you had just been inserting a comment a minute.
    You said Jesus violated the Sabbath. He didn't.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    You believe that now? Because before you said all the people in the country were spiritual brothers.
    That's not at all what I said. You're full of it. In fact, you're claiming precisely the opposite of what I said. Ya weasel. What I said, to repeat, is that a proper man to government relationship is the product of a proper man to man relationship. Which is, itself, the product of the brotherhood of men under the common fatherhood of God.

    That means that a proper government to man relationship is one that is based on the primary foundation for moral code. Natural Law. God's Law.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    You said Jesus violated the Sabbath. He didn't.
    You're model demands that we accept that Jesus died in vain. He didn't.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Thank You. It really is quite simple. The problem is that some friends want to divide Believers as a matter of activism in order to justify their own doctrinal superiority.
    2 Corinthians 11:3 - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    You're model demands that Jesus died in vain. He didn't.
    No it doesn't. Roman's 2 through 8 describe why Jesus died. It most certainly was not in vain.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No it doesn't. Roman's 2 through 8 describe why Jesus died. It most certainly was not in vain.
    By your model everyone is predestined. So, yes...it does.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    You said Jesus violated the Sabbath. He didn't.
    No he didn't because he became our Sabbath. I rest in him daily.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  25. #81
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him may be saved.

    This is the word of the LORD. And the LORD is bigger than you, boy.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-12-2017 at 12:00 PM.

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    2 Corinthians 11:3 - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    Amen to that. How cunningly that Satan deceives people into thinking that salvation is not from God alone. He's been a liar since the beginning, and people believe his lies.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him may be saved.

    This is the word of the LORD. And the LORD is bigger than you, boy.
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
    Yes. That is the Word.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    You said Jesus violated the Sabbath. He didn't.
    Another childish, sophist trick designed solely to drag a deep conversation into the shallow water.

    The Pharisees who were there that day said He violated their rules regarding the Sabbath. And that is a gospel verse, so it must be true. So, the question becomes, how does it serve the Lord for you to reduce an important discussion to a childish dispute on whether those Pharisees were lying about whether Jesus violated their silly-assed Sabbath rules? Especially when Jesus did not deny it?

    Sophist tricks designed to short-circuit meaningful conversation. My, how noble!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    How cunningly that Satan deceives people...
    Amen, indeed.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 06-12-2017 at 12:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Amen to that. How cunningly that Satan deceives people into thinking that salvation is not from God alone. He's been a liar since the beginning, and people believe his lies.
    Do you accept that I, or anyone else for that matter, has the ability to receive Grace? To know God? Yes or no? One word.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    By your model everyone is predestined. So, yes...it does.
    No it doesn't. As usual you don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you read Romans 2 through 9 yourself so you can see how Paul explains predestination ad how it relates to the sacrifice of Jesus.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Yes. That is the Word.
    Absolutely.

    To reiterate..

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


    Whoever believes in him is not condemned...whoever does not believe stands condemned already...

    To be clear, this indicates that 'whoever" has a choice.

    As always, you remove the tenor of scripture from your pablum. You're a deceiver, S_F.

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Absolutely.

    To reiterate..

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.


    Whoever believes in him is not condemned...whoever does not believe stands condemned already...

    To be clear, this indicates that 'whoever" has a choice.

    As always, you remove the tenor of scripture from your pablum. You're a deceiver, S_F.
    No. That verse says nothing about the ability of man to choose.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    As usual you don't know what you're talking about.
    I know that you're a deceiver. And I know that your goal here is to divide believers. And I know that you believe that you're in a special group of worthier-than-though Christians.

    But you're not. You do the Devil's work here. You're a Deceiver. You're a Destroyer. You're an Accuser. You're a Mocker. But you are not a Ruler.

  35. #90
    Here is a verse that describes man's will in salvation.
    Romans 9:16

    So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy.
    You are deceived, and a deceiver, because you don't believe what is in God's Word.

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