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Let's first take a step back, there are two possibilities, the person can be made to work, or he might not be (disabled, strong willed).
If he can't be made to work, he shouldn't be let out to harm other people anyway.
If he could be made to work, well, we'd probably pay back the creditor first, just like we'd want justice for the raped victim first before we worry about keeping society safer from the same criminal.
Is our current system that lets the debtor walk away with bankruptcy and forces the creditor to leave the debtor alone better? juster?
Link or it didn't happen.
Anyone can see who is making practical points and who is engaging in sophistry here.
Well, now. Debtors' prison, genius, does not make that differentiation. And regular prison does have room for those who commit fraud, if it can be proven (and, no, psychic evidence isn't evidence at all in this nation).
Well, now. You're not nearly as dense as you pretend to be.
'Juster' is not a word, at least not in English. I wish you'd buy a dictionary already.
Better? As in, better than slavery? Yes. It is. Anything that involves slavery is in no way good, just, or justifiable. We're better off letting the whole lending system fail than re-institutionalizing slavery, imo. Not that this is an issue; even before they changed the laws and the people who filed for bankruptcy actually did come halfway close to walking away from their debts scot free (which is no longer true), the entire lending system didn't fail because of it.
Now who's not interested in practicalities?
Here is the reason an economist would give. Sometimes people with good intentions and a hard work ethic with every intent to pay back debt go bankrupt because they are unlucky.
Imagine 1000 people want to borrow 20k each to start a business. Maybe 50-100 will lose all the money and default. A few hundred will pay back the money but not have very successful businesses and eventually close. Another several hundred will run mildly successful businesses and produce value for the economy. Maybe one will become a publicly traded company, even the next Microsoft. Now imagine what would happen if those 1000 people didn't want to start a business for fear of debtors prison. We lose many successful small businesses and the possibility of a next major company as a result. Sure we also prevent some defaults, but the lenders understand the risk going in and we understand that people sometimes default even with the best intentions.
The statutes are not 'somebody', they are the stautes. And they're not statutes because just anyone said so, they're statutes because they got passed into law. In some places, that might be because 'somebody'--very specifically, a king--said so. But in this nation, laws become laws when they get passed, and they don't get passed by 'somebody', but by a whole room full of very specific people.
ok?
TPoints, are you acutally arguing for "debtors prisons" or looking to make some other point using that as the way to arrive at your point?
The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.
"Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron
"Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton
I believe the point is to paint us as corporatists. Which is something corporations would be happy for either a troll or a useful idiot to do. But it isn't that easy, and the main reason it isn't that easy is because we're not corporatists.
He already denied that. So, reality obviously cuts no ice with this one.
And it doesn't require a debtors' prison to incarcerate someone for fraud. Another reality bite he seems intent on denying.
The amount of investigation required to find mens rea (criminal intent) prior to a loan agreement would be too onerous (if possible at all) for the DAs office to even attempt. Where would the funds come from to saddle the criminal justice system with the additional role of debt collector? How much scratch are you willing to put out, Mr. Points, so BoA doesn't lose out? Wait...haven't we bailed out the banks enough?
Libertarian heavyweights Walter Block and Stephan Kinsella discuss this very thing at the beginning of their recent talk.
Block (and Rothbard) is for debtors prisons. Kinsella is against.
http://www.stephankinsella.com/paf-p...ntary-slavery/
Banks are still the Real Criminals, and we are still the Real Victims. Debtors Prisons throw the Victims in Prison.
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
Illinois has been skirting the issue. The creditor sues to get a judgement. Most creditors don't show up for the hearing, expecting to lose by default. The judge instead puts out a "Failure To Appear" warrant for their arrest. They end up in jail, and then they aren't released until they pay the court costs and the judgement.
If someone owes you money, you have the right to get that money back or equivalent property. Any judicial system, whether public or private, can handle that. What you don't have the right to is to enslave someone because they owe you money.
It makes no sense to put someone in prison. The punishment doesn't fit the crime at all. What does make sense is that their credit rating will be destroyed and they won't be able to borrow in the future. This already happens.
No more IRS.
I am now old enough to vote.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
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How in the hell does someone in prison ever have a chance of paying off a debt?
Not a very well thought out question.
Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi
Big Finance would never allow debtor's prison.
The demand for credit would plummet.
People wound not purchase things unless they had the money.
I haven't read the every post in the thread, but it seems that everyone thinks the amount of loans would stay the same and we would have a huge prison system bulging at the seams with debtors.
I don't see that. I see people taking less loans.
The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.
"Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron
"Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton
If you didn't pick up the tickets then no, of course not. If you were sent the tickets with the agreement to pay for them, and then never did, then I can absolutely use force to get my money from you. I can't use force to take your car, or $100, but I can to get the $50 owed me.
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