Why the H-1B Visa Racket Should Be Abolished, Not Reformed

[Natural Citizen]

Hey, Brian, I just want to tell you that I'm not mad at you or anything. Sorry if I came off in a bad way. I was trying to be as respectful as I could. Yet offer legitimate reasons for my disagreement with the topic of the H-1B as a whole as well as compartmentalization of the issues as a consequence of political opinion.

The thing is that I just don't give a crap anymore. Seriously. lol. But here's the thing. It's a wonderful feeling. I absolutely love it. I should have tried this a long time ago.

[helmuth_hubener]

To sum up:

We are educating vast numbers of foreigners.

We are not educating Americans very well.

We are preferentially hiring vast numbers of foreigners.

We are not hiring Americans as much.

None of these elements necessarily has causal priority. No reason to argue with each other over that. They all feed off of each other in a downward (erowe/Super would say "upward") spiral of multicultural vibrancy.

[Brian4Liberty]

50% of all PHD candidates are foreign born. And in some cases 100% are foreign born depending on the university. It's beyond just jobs. These people create entire industries.

Going to school in the US is one of the main legal pathways to citizenship. This is an artificial enticement. And admittedly, some cultures value education more than others.

And, again, we're seeing Silicon Valleys popping up in India and China and elsewhere now. Where did they come from? They came from America via the H1-B. Without the H1-B many colleges wouldnt even exist in America.

They come from US Silicon Valley companies opening up new sites in other places. RTP for example. And yes, if a person needs to look up that acronym, that would be a red flag that a person does not have a whole lot of knowledge of the subject.

I agree that people who were educated in the US can go back to their home nation and work there, but they are not creating these "new Silicon Valleys" absent US companies, US R&D, US education and US consumers (both retail and subcontracting).

Universities turn people away. We have a lack of supply of higher education. We need more competition in education. Less foreign students opens up space for Americans that want to learn.

American graduates regularly compete at the level of third world countries, Brian. Surely you must know this. This is a fact. Do we need to rehash common core to demonstrate? That's just a popular term for the evolution of it, by the way. Common core has been around since the early 90s. It just wasn't called common core. Traditional math linguistics were killed by TERC. Although each course had it's own alter ego of 'TERC'. I only offer TERC here because we're talking about the STEM departments where traditional math is, of course, expected to be uderstood by any given phd candidate, foreign or American. Here's an example of what American Math students have been learnng sunce the early 90s based on the 1994 model that It's Time to Abandon Computational Algorithms Read that and tell me that these kids, in their late 20s now, are gonna compete with the phd candidates here on the H1-B. Again, 50% of phd candidates are foreign born. 100% in many science colleges.

Granted, US education standards and education ethic has suffered, but I'm not willing to throw in the towel on the youth of America.

Also, America hasn't contributed anything of significance since Apollo.

OK, so I'll take that as hyperbole. The internet was not created in Mumbai. Cell phone technology was not developed in Zhongguancun.

And even that technology is being produced by foreign nations while our youth have been taught merely to consume, bow, and obey since the 80s that I can think of. I think Reagan opened up those floodgates so that kids were advertising targets for Chinese junk instead of educating them. I forget the name of the law(corporate penned, btw, by the same people who produced tjer stuff overseas.) but I can sure find it.

Once again, I'm not giving up on American kids. They have every opportunity to learn if they want to. They just need the proper motivation. And telling them they are ignorant, incapable and their jobs will be taken by foreigners will not help motivate them.

[susano]

We already beat this dead horse so let's not get into the details again. Would you at least agree that eliminating the H1B program is WAY down on the list of our problems? If we completely eliminate the H1B program, you won't notice squat either way. We've got not just one, but dozens of massive elephants in the room and we're worried about a speck of dust. How about SS, Medicare, Defense spending, tax reform, minimum wage, money printing, socialized healthcare (Obamacare or Trumpcare), etc, etc.

A combination of xenophobia and hatred of big business has turned this from a teensy tiny molehill to the Himalayas.

The Financial International bankrolled Lenin and Trotsky. Take that for what it's worth.

Communists and libertarians are so much alike.

It's not a molehill to me or millions of other Americans. Perhaps if you had to train your foreign replacement you might better understand. The purpose of globalization, open borders and multikulti is to destroy cohesive populations, lessening obstacles to centralized global corporate control and the global plantation, which includes the race to the bottom. In Marxist revolutionary theory, the solution to such artificially created misery is bloody revolution and the communist international.

[Superfluous Man]

Tell us all about your experience in high tech, Mr. Pupa.

I won't talk about specifics of my personal life. But it's significant enough to know what I'm talking about.

Also, if what you said were factual, you wouldn't need to rely on anecdotes.

[susano]

Sorry but the stupidity of this article hurts my neurons. This part in particular.

So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.

Ummm....H1B visa holders pay taxes. Many of them pay more taxes than the average native born American. And most of them send their kids to private schools because, frankly, American public schools suck. I can see complaining about immigrants using welfare or the public school system. But complaining about immigrants using "muh roads?" Seriously?

Okay. Substitute "tourist" for "H1B visa holders." It would be wrong to give tourists food stamps. But should you keep tourists off the roads? If they are driving, they buy gas and pay gas taxes. If they are paying someone else to drive, like an Uber driver, the person they hired is buying gas and paying gas taxes. Maybe you can make the argument that tourists are using "welfare" when they use public transportation so....ban tourism?

Really, anti immigrant conservatives are as bad as statist liberals. Once in a family law class the teacher brought up "octomom" (the lady that had 8 kids at once.) Most of the class was like "Oh....that's so terrible! That should be banned!" Mind you everyone was all for any type of "alternative" family. Two guys or two gals? Perfect. Family having 8 kids? Terrible! Their reasoning "They are using up our precious resources." I was like "But what if they aren't on welfare?" One particularly angry witch droned "I used to work in a public school and I saw how all these kids come in and they use this and that." so I said "And if the kids are home schooled?" She was like "They use our electricity!" So I countered "And if they are off grid?" Then she shut up.

I'm seeing the same thing with the anti immigrant crowd. Sure, I don't want people coming here and getting on welfare. But getting on our roads? Are you freaking kidding me?

Oh, AND THE ARTICLE FLAT OUT LIED BY STATING THAT H1B VISA PARTICIPANTS GET WELFARE!

Stupid article. Worst I have ever read on the subject.

I believe she referenced chain migration and the relatives of the visa holders getting the welfare benefits. Are you claiming they don't?

[susano]

Another exaggeration about the opposition. The issue is really about the immorality of the elites which clearly is being ignored and their propaganda propagated here. Prior to the 80s they would be called out for their immorality and some corporations would actually serve the people here and their community equally with the quest for profits. But now it is solely about majority shareholder value over everything no matter the consequences and without any allegiance to the people of this country. God forbid you call out their immorality since people have now been brainwashed to believe that some how makes you against free markets, some how promoting regulations or a Communist.

The globalists and those supporting these policies are the enemy of the majority of Americans more than any foreign power.

And, actually, the ones pushing globalism, open borders and multikulti are the ones advocating international communism/Trotskyism, whether they are aware of it or not.

[susano]

Does anyone really think jobs would go unfilled or undone without this program ? I am not seeing that .I ran many different large specialized facilities without ever using any and I have only been out of that for a year.

Nope. Hence the ongoing import and replace racket where already employed Americans are put in the position of having to train their lower paid foreign replacements or lose their severance pay as the door hits them in the ass on their way out.

[susano]

Best I can tell , people in the US are not buying many products made in the US . I am in one of the last few remaining areas heavily involved in Mnfg and there is only one Co here employing these people .

My sister lives in a small town in western Michigan. Depressed economy and she's gone through several jobs in the last year and a half. One was in a bakery which she couldn't hack. Eight hour days with high heat, no lunch break, low pay. Two 10 minute breaks, though. Other than a few Americans, the place is mostly Mexicans who can handle the high heat and grueling no lunch conditions because they're used to it. But, hey, cheaper bread and more profit for the owner, right? That seems to be the argument put forth by some here.

Race
to
the
bottom

[Superfluous Man]

I believe she referenced chain migration and the relatives of the visa holders getting the welfare benefits. Are you claiming they don't?

Their children can.

But so can the children of citizens. So what? Yes, welfare shouldn't exist. But that has nothing to do with immigration.

[Superfluous Man]

And, actually, the ones pushing globalism, open borders and multikulti are the ones advocating international communism/Trotskyism, whether they are aware of it or not.

That's not true. Ron Paul is not advocating communism/Trotskyism.

In fact it's the exact opposite. Immigration regulation has always been a socialist scheme and still is today. You don't see free market proponents pushing it. You only see commies like Trump pushing it.

[Brian4Liberty]

I won't talk about specifics of my personal life. But it's significant enough to know what I'm talking about.

Also, if what you said were factual, you wouldn't need to rely on anecdotes.

What part exactly do you know about? You have provided no evidence at all for your positions.

The real world is a series of anecdotes. A survey does not make them any more or less real. It might quantify some things, if it is a well-designed and thorough study, which the vast majority are not. Every special interest can come up with stats that support their agendas. Zippy is the expert at stats. Nothing is real unless it comes from a government source.

Here's a stat for you:

Nationally, computer science is the only STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) field that has seen a decrease in student participation in the last 20 years (Time).

A decrease in the last 20 years. Now why would that be? Could it possibly be for the reasons I have heard from actual students who have decided against computer science?

I have been involved in recruiting, and have talked to my share of college kids. Since about 2000, American kids have been discouraged from STEM degrees by the knowledge that companies are only hiring foreign workers. ...

...
They are discouraged by hearing that foreigners are getting hired over them. They are discouraging by hearing that pay is going down. They are discouraged by hearing that their grand parents or parents were forced to train their foreign replacement. They are discouraged by hearing that they are less capable than foreigners at these majors. They are discouraged by walking into a classroom that is 80% or more foreigners.
...

[Brian4Liberty]

Public schools working hard to make US kids competitive in Computer Science. Or not.

Huh? Schools Think Kids Don’t Want to Learn Computer Science
...
In a big survey conducted with Gallup and released today, Google found a range of dysfunctional reasons more K-12 students aren’t learning computer science skills. Perhaps the most surprising: schools don’t think the demand from parents and students is there.

Google and Gallup spent a year and a half surveying thousands of students, parents, teachers, principals, and superintendents across the US. And it’s not that parents don’t want computer science for their kids. A full nine in ten parents surveyed viewed computer science education as a good use of school resources. It’s the gap between actual and perceived demand that appears to be the problem.

“Most principals and superintendents surveyed say it is important to offer computer science education,” the survey’s authors wrote. “However, given the tendency to prioritize subjects that are included in required testing, computer science is not a top priority.”

Perhaps even more troubling, the very people elected to represent the interests of parents and the community don’t seem to get it.

“Less than half of principals and superintendents surveyed say their school board thinks offering computer science education is important.”
...
More: https://www.wired.com/2015/08/school...puter-science/

[Superfluous Man]

What part exactly do you know about? You have provided no evidence at all for your positions.

Neither have you. Your claim to have heard someone give you a bogus totally uninformed reason for why they didn't choose some career doesn't count as evidence for the conclusion that more H1B Visas in these fields where there's nowhere near enough supply of labor to meet the demand is somehow creating a disincentive in the market as a whole for Americans to go into those fields and to choose other fields where the demand is lower and they will get paid less and have less job security instead.

A decrease in the last 20 years. Now why would that be? Could it possibly be for the reasons I have heard from actual students who have decided against computer science?

No. That makes no sense. Even if you're telling the truth, you're listening to people making excuses for themselves or else are just trying to feed into a nationalist ideology. Foreign workers are not making it harder for Americans to get high tech jobs. The demand is there if they want to do the work to go into those fields.

In fact, government intervention to make it harder to hire foreign workers will only make more whole companies move overseas to hire those workers, and the demand for high tech labor in the US will go down.

Come to think of it, I've heard anecdotes from Americans who decided not to become computer programmers because they were worried that Trump was going to reduce H1B Visas and cause their potential employers to relocate overseas. They decided to become poets and philosophers instead.

[r3volution 3.0]

These arguments always revolve around reductionism to were we just need to get government out of this or that to solve the problem. But the realist know that that will not happen overnight. So as a practical interim solution, let's limit what we can do in the here and now. We know hospitals cannot refuse patients even though many patients have no means to pay. So maybe we should limit those who come to our country without means.

The practical solution is to limit immigrants' access to welfare, not limit immigration.

More people support the former than the latter (everyone who supports the latter would support the former, but not vice versa).

[helmuth_hubener]

Even if you're telling the truth

Bad form, erowe. Bad form.

[susano]

Their children can.

But so can the children of citizens. So what? Yes, welfare shouldn't exist. But that has nothing to do with immigration.

Chain migration doesn't mean their children unless the visa who comes has children who follow (not US citizens). It generally means spouses, siblings, grandparents and possibly more. One person gets the visa, with a job, and the rest of the family, without jobs or even language skills, comes here with no requirement to be able to support themselves.

[susano]

Their children can.

But so can the children of citizens. So what? Yes, welfare shouldn't exist. But that has nothing to do with immigration.

And, btw, just because you think welfare shouldn't exist doesn't mean jack. It does exist and it has everything to do with immigration as many immigrants and illegal aliens receive all kinds of "benefits". If you feel welfare should not exist than you're putting the cart before the horse on your open borders stance. I believe it was Milton Freidman (could be wrong on that) who said you cannot have open borders AND a welfare state. You can have one or the other. Obviously, the result of doing both is more debt, money creation and eventual collapse. If you want open borders then you need end the welfare state first.

None of this addresses the other important impacts of mass migration but I doubt you'd care about that anyway.

[r3volution 3.0]

I believe it was Milton Freidman (could be wrong on that) who said you cannot have open borders AND a welfare state. You can have one or the other. Obviously, the result of doing both is more debt, money creation and eventual collapse. If you want open borders then you need end the welfare state first.

So how about it?

What would happen if anti-immigrant people shifted their focus from restricting immigration to denying them welfare benefits?

Why is that not an option?

[susano]

That's not true. Ron Paul is not advocating communism/Trotskyism.

In fact it's the exact opposite. Immigration regulation has always been a socialist scheme and still is today. You don't see free market proponents pushing it. You only see commies like Trump pushing it.

You are mistaken. Marxist internationalism is no nation states and absolute freedom of movement (labor following capital). There is no "immigration regulation" because there are no nation states. Just one big global plantation.

IIRC, Ron Paul changed his mind about mass immigration a few years ago and even supported increased border control. Whether he did or not, though, doesn't matter to me. Open borders will destroy the United States as sure they're destroying Europe and the massive illegal alien population has turned California into an overtaxed, third world, commie $#@!hole.

[susano]

So how about it?

What would happen if anti-immigrant people shifted their focus from restricting immigration to denying them welfare benefits?

Why is that not an option?

It is an option for anyone feeling strongly enough about it. I'm just sayin' that you can't have both. Those advocating open borders but who oppose any form of welfare have it ass backwards.

[r3volution 3.0]

It is an option for anyone feeling strongly enough about it. I'm just sayin' that you can't have both. Those advocating open borders but who oppose any form of welfare have it ass backwards.

Point is, the "since there's welfare, we have to restrict immigration" argument makes no sense.

It presupposes that it's impossible to cut welfare for immigrants, when that's actually more politically feasible than further restricting immigration.

[susano]

Point is, the "since there's welfare, we have to restrict immigration" argument makes no sense.

It presupposes that it's impossible to cut welfare for immigrants, when that's actually more politically feasible than further restricting immigration.

That's not what I said. I said you can't have both. There are many other reasons to oppose mass immigration besides the fact that immigrants and illegal aliens receive welfare.

[r3volution 3.0]

There are many other reasons to oppose mass immigration besides the fact that immigrants and illegal aliens receive welfare.

Such as?

[Natural Citizen]

A decrease in the last 20 years. Now why would that be? Could it possibly be for the reasons I have heard from actual students who have decided against computer science?

No.

The vast majority of these students are simply pulling out their arbitrary victim status card because they don't understand that they had an inferior education. They simply aren't qualified to be phd candidates in these fields because the information revolution's weakness is precisely the education system. America has the worst education system known to math and science. The worst part is that they really don't know this. If they did, we wouldn't need to go to campuses to pass out literature, now would we?

Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty
...
They are discouraged by hearing that foreigners are getting hired over them. They are discouraging by hearing that pay is going down. They are discouraged by hearing that their grand parents or parents were forced to train their foreign replacement. They are discouraged by hearing that they are less capable than foreigners at these majors. They are discouraged by walking into a classroom that is 80% or more foreigners.

See? They hear things. They see things. But I doubt very highly that they are of the geopolitical aptitude to relate what they are seeing and hearing to the reality of the situation. They think they are qualified because they don't know they got an inferior education. To them, they think they got great education. But they didn't. They forgot that in todays American education system, everybody is on the honor roll. lol. You know it and I know it. It's just another example of the entitlement mindset.

And unfortunately for them, they don't have a right to have their feelings addressed. It's okay. Just give them a sticker and a mop and call them the last winner.

The problem with the H1B is the grade school and high school education system. That needs to be resolved. But you guys are against the education system so you're stuck in your own horse pucky and trying to circlejerk around the issue and compartmentalize it into something else. I suppose mom and dad (if there is such a situation) can teach junior the mathematical prerequisites for quantum physics if he can pull them away from Dancing With The Stars and their McMac for 5 minutes. Couldn't they?

[Madison320]

So how about it?

What would happen if anti-immigrant people shifted their focus from restricting immigration to denying them welfare benefits?

Why is that not an option?

I think that's what irritates me the most about this. Even if immigration is a net negative (which I don't think it is), the negative effects are MICROSCOPIC compared to the REAL problems we have. It's such wasted energy.

[r3volution 3.0]

I think that's what irritates me the most about this. Even if immigration is a net negative (which I don't think it is), the negative effects are MICROSCOPIC compared to the REAL problems we have. It's such wasted energy.

Indeed. Even by the estimate of anti-immigrant group FAIRUS, total government spending (all levels, but excluding national defense) per illegal immigrant is $10,272. If we assume all immigrants cost this much (a generous assumption, since legal immigrants are richer and therefore consume fewer benefits), that works out to $451 billion (given 44 million immigrants), or 6% of the total ($7.04 trillion). By contrast, total spending on natives (again sans national defense) is $5.653 trillion (80% of the total); while spending per native is about twice as much at $20,407. This is largely driven by social security and medicare, which accounts for more than a fifth of the budget and goes almost exclusively to natives.

[timosman]

I think that's what irritates me the most about this. Even if immigration is a net negative (which I don't think it is), the negative effects are MICROSCOPIC compared to the REAL problems we have. It's such wasted energy.

As measured by FRNs as nothing else matters to the free market "advocates"

[timosman]

A decrease in the last 20 years. Now why would that be?

Have you heard of Agile?

[timosman]

RTP for example. And yes, if a person needs to look up that acronym, that would be a red flag that a person does not have a whole lot of knowledge of the subject.

Please do everybody a favor and explain what RTP is, pretty please.