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Thread: My Issue With Walter Block (he is wrong) and Forced Vaccination

  1. #1

    My Issue With Walter Block (he is wrong) and Forced Vaccination

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Walter Block understands the issue.

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/02/...-vaccinations/

    "Assume that if you don't get a vaccination, you'll contract a dreadful disease and then become contagious. You'll infect me and I'll die. Then, I think, the libertarian law would force you to become inoculated, otherwise you would be violating the non aggression axiom, or non aggression principle (NAP). Your refusal to get vaccinated makes you, in effect, a murderer."

    "
    However, I must take issue with your contention that "if the infected person … is not actually pursuing people with the intent to harm them," then "surely there can be no reason to apply force u2018for the greater good.'" Well, then, yes, force is not justified for the "greater good," but it is, I contend, justified out of self defense. Typhoid Mary was not trying to hurt anyone else. She wasn't even aware she was doing to. But it was, I think, justified to compel her through violence if need be, to cease and desist."


    It is amazing what a terrible understanding of liberty so many on this forum have. Yet at the same time think Justin Amash is a sellout because he thinks a bunch of even less informed, "Keep your big government hands off my Medicare" Tea Party goobers, shouldn't physically intimidate politicians.


    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Krugminator2 again."

    I rarely hear anyone talk about Block these days, but he's one of the clearer living libertarian thinkers, especially on esoteric ethical problems.


    I follow and reference Walter Block quite often. He is one of the clearer thinkers. However, I would debate this particular issue with him and win, or, I would hope that he would agree with me. If not, I would drop him from my list out of principle.

    1. It is not known whether this so far unavailable "vaccine" is 100% safe.

    2. If/when a vaccine is actually developed, refer to 1., is it guaranteed to be 100% safe to me and effective toward others?

    3. If/when a vaccine is available - and is, or is not, 100% safe/effective, Person B has a right to be vaccinated to protect against people like me (Person A), and (Person A) has a right to choose not to put something into my own body for whatever reason I determine for my own self (religious, or otherwise).

    4. Should compensation be provided [which it is currently not] in the event something were to happen because vaccine is not 100% safe. And if not, that would violate my freedom to engage in Contract Rights and freedom of choice.


    Walter Block should refer to his "boat in the water" analysis and understand that "self-preservation" trumps all. Otherwise, he fails his very own litmus test.


    The facts are known that there is no vaccine yet available, nobody knows the Actual Ingredients, or if it will be 100% safe, and that there is in fact an agenda for the MMIC, which has nothing to do with keeping the people free and safe. So, trying to debate "what if" scenarios as this is being rolled out to the masses and our individual rights are being stripped away only further empowers tptb.

    I have no more to discuss on this matter, other than to say perhaps Walter Block is speaking hypothetically that this proposed "vaccine" will in fact be 100% safe, 100% effective, and the right to Claim Damages does exist, which it does not.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  3. #2
    New Zealand has a constitutional right to refuse any medical procedure.

    There are rules for normal circumstances and rules for abnormal circumstances. Sars- Cov2 isn't airborne Ebola. We didn't know that it wasn't earlier, but now we do.

    Can you consent to live in a society with mandatory vaccines? That would make it voluntary in general even if consent at the time was withdrawn.

    If self-preservation means vaccinating everybody around you does that count?
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    New Zealand has a constitutional right to refuse any medical procedure.

    There are rules for normal circumstances and rules for abnormal circumstances. Sars- Cov2 isn't airborne Ebola. We didn't know that it wasn't earlier, but now we do.

    Can you consent to live in a society with mandatory vaccines? That would make it voluntary in general even if consent at the time was withdrawn.

    If self-preservation means vaccinating everybody around you does that count?
    NO.

    That would imply that the vaccine is in fact 100% safe, 100% effective, and that the Right to Claim Damages does exist.

    If all of those conditions are met, then it would be the individual who has the right to vaccinate him/herself to be protected from others, without infringing upon other people. Forcing others to comply, so that I do not have to, is a violation of NAP. Else, live in your own box, on your own dime, where you are guaranteed 100% safety.

    Government has NO business in healthcare!
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  5. #4
    Seeing as Krugminator likes to use that quote, it has been debated in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Walter Block has his ass handed to him on that. And he had to backtrack substantially before he was done. There is a continuum of how contagious and deadly a disease may be, and also a consideration of how dangerous the proposed preventative action. Block choose the most contagious and deadly case he could think of. He could have also used Ebola. He essentially finally concluded that mandates would only apply to the most extreme end of the spectrum.

    HPV is nowhere near that end of of the spectrum. I suspect Block would oppose mandatory HPV vaccination.

    I would say that Block’s example borders on hyperbole beyond reality. What actions and laws would be justified in a zombie apocalypse? It’s ridiculous to even consider, and ignorant to propose such scenarios when they will bolster real world totalitarian mommy government.

    And as he is primarily an economist, perhaps he should consider that a vaccination is a product, and he had proposed (in a limited and extreme situation) that government mandate purchase of that product.

    Come back when Ebola outbreaks occur in the US. That is zombie apocalypse level. Drastic, emergency measures would become necessary. Until then, it’s support for Big Mommy government.
    COVID-19, while new and a bit scary due to it’s inflammatory effect on some people, still only has the death rate of a bad flu. It is not Ebola, and it is not the zombie apocalypse.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I follow and reference Walter Block quite often. He is one of the clearer thinkers. However, I would debate this particular issue with him and win, or, I would hope that he would agree with me. If not, I would drop him from my list out of principle.

    1. It is not known whether this so far unavailable "vaccine" is 100% safe.

    2. If/when a vaccine is actually developed, refer to 1., is it guaranteed to be 100% safe to me and effective toward others?
    If the vaccine isn't sufficiently safe/effective, then the point is moot, of course. Block's talking about a principle; how it applies in a particular situation will depends on the particular facts of that situation (how effective/safe is the vaccine, how dangerous is the disease, etc).

    3. If/when a vaccine is available - and is, or is not, 100% safe/effective, Person B has a right to be vaccinated to protect against people like me (Person A), and (Person A) has a right to choose not to put something into my own body for whatever reason I determine for my own self (religious, or otherwise).
    It may be that not everyone can be vaccinated (for medical reasons) and those people can only be protected if others are vaccinated.

    Whether that would justify mass vaccination would again depend on the particular facts; e.g. how many of these people are there?

    If it's one guy, then I'd say vaccinating everybody else clearly isn't worth it.

    But if it's 1% of the population, 5%, 10%?

    At some point, there's a case to be made for vaccinating everybody else to protect those people.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 05-15-2020 at 01:06 PM.

  7. #6

  8. #7
    Biden mandate bump...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Biden mandate bump...


    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    NO.

    That would imply that the vaccine is in fact 100% safe, 100% effective, and that the Right to Claim Damages does exist.

    If all of those conditions are met, then it would be the individual who has the right to vaccinate him/herself to be protected from others, without infringing upon other people. Forcing others to comply, so that I do not have to, is a violation of NAP. Else, live in your own box, on your own dime, where you are guaranteed 100% safety.

    Government has NO business in healthcare!

    I stand by my position.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  11. #9
    Walter Block is the libertarian little-girl-with-the-curl-on-her-forehead -- when he's right, he's very right, and when he's wrong... it's horrid.

    There is no presumption of safety (medical or otherwise) in the public space, which is an unstated assumption in Block's argument. Neither Block nor anyone else has any "private property claim" to safety in the public space. Block's argument 100% applies to his own land, and other properties. Typhoid Mary may be stopped at his property line, by force if necessary. She may be forcibly stopped from entering his vehicle or approaching unduly close to his person[1]. He may ask his employer to eject her from the grounds if she were to harass him by following him into his place of employment. These are the remedies that are available to Block or anyone else if they do not want to be approached by infected people (or anyone else, for that matter). However, no one has any additional private property claim to medical safety or any other kind of safety in the public space.

    In Mad Max anarcho-capitalism (I'm not necessarily using this as a pejorative), if you venture into the hinterlands unarmed and turn up dead, the only person to blame for your death is your own fool self. You knew better than to go wandering around unarmed. Of course, if the bandits somehow happened to turn up in custody and confess, they would still be legally liable for their crime. But as a practical matter, we know that is extremely unlikely to happen. So, the public space can be thought of as the ultimate buyer-beware space.

    That applies equally to unvaccinated people and medical-safety. If you really are that scared of the doomsday virus, then the onus is on you to purchase and use a self-contained, biohazard suit. By shelling out the cash, you can equip your home with ultra-filtration to filter out particles down to a few parts-per-million or less. What you don't have a right to do is force everybody else in society to subsidize your paranoid hypochondria.

    It should be clear that the primary value of the doomsday virus, for the purposes of the Deep State, is how it puts those who believe in private property rights and the free exchange of goods and services, on their back foot. Even if the doomsday virus did undergo a purely natural gain-of-function from animals to humans, the entire narrative surrounding it is all about this imaginary right that paranoid hypochondriac individuals supposedly have to force the rest of society (through the apparatus of the State) to subsidize the relief of their anxieties. I'm not inherently opposed to getting a vaccination but I don't owe you to be vaccinated because I could get infected, and then infect you. If you are that worried about it, retire to your fortress of solitude, build a hermetically-sealed living space and live the rest of your days in a lab-isolated bubble away from all human contact.

    [1] - "unduly close" is very difficult to define but we can say "arm's reach" for a first-approximation
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 09-10-2021 at 01:49 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  12. #10
    You do not have a ppositive right to be kept safe. You do not have the positive right to force others to provide for your material safety and/or well-being in any and all circumstances. What you absolutely do have is a right to provide for your own safety and well- being to the best of your ability, up to thd point where it begins to interfere with the liberty of others. You do not get to violate their bodies against their will in your pathalogical pursuit of "safety."
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



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