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Thread: Trump shrinks Utah monuments created by Obama, Clinton

  1. #1

    Trump shrinks Utah monuments created by Obama, Clinton

    President Trump on Monday signed a pair of executive orders to significantly shrink two of Utah’s national monuments – Bears Ears and the Grand Staircase-Escalante – that were created by his Democratic predecessors. The controversial move was pitched by Trump as a win for states' rights and follows an April review conducted by Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke on the boundaries of large national monuments. The review initially looked at more than two dozen sites designated by presidential decree since the 1990s.


    “I know you love this land the best and you know how to protect it and you know how to conserve this land for many, many generations to come,” Trump told a group of people at Utah’s Capitol in Salt Lake City. “They don’t know your land. They don’t care for your land like you do.”
    Trump’s presidential proclamations cut Bears Ears by 85 percent and Grand Staircase-Escalante in half. The action is also likely to trigger a legal battle that could alter the government’s approach to conservation.

    More at: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...a-clinton.html
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  5. #4
    I support local control and States rights, but there is always another side to that coin. Utah government is pretty much controlled by an elite group (LDS). Their history of "environmental protection" is not the best, especially with regard to mining. The powerful and connected do what they want, even if it means open pit mines everywhere. I'm not proposing a solution, just stating a fact.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I support local control and States rights, but there is always another side to that coin. Utah government is pretty much controlled by an elite group (LDS). Their history of "environmental protection" is not the best, especially with regard to mining. The powerful and connected do what they want, even if it means open pit mines everywhere. I'm not proposing a solution, just stating a fact.
    Well ya, they mine a lot because there are a lot of resources there. Maybe God told Brigham Young to stop there for a reason?

    They have done a pretty good job and protecting their most beautiful natural habitats, have you been to Utah and been to some of their protected areas?













    Last edited by dannno; 12-04-2017 at 05:00 PM.
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  7. #6
    @dannno:
    Well ya, they mine a lot because there are a lot of resources there. Maybe God told Brigham Young to stop there for a reason?

    They have done a pretty good job and protecting their most beautiful natural habitats, have you been to Utah and been to some of their protected areas?
    Yep- pretty much this.^^^^

    Utah would like the Fed Gov to give their state back to them & I am pretty sure they will take care of these wonderful natural areas.
    Last edited by Ender; 12-04-2017 at 05:51 PM.
    There is no spoon.

  8. #7
    Mixed messages. Interior secretary Ryan Zinke recommended the reduction in monument lands in Utah- a "land grab"- but wants more lands set aside in his own state of Montana.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/interio...t-not-at-home/

    In Zinke's home state, the former congressman who has long harbored higher political ambitions is recommending Trump create a new national monument out of the forests bordering Glacier National Park, to the disappointment of a company that wants to drill for natural gas there.

    A couple hundred miles away, where rocky bluffs line the Missouri River, he decided to leave intact a 590-square-mile (1,528-square-kilometer) monument that for 16 years has stirred the kind of impassioned local opposition that Zinke cited in justifying changes to monuments elsewhere.

    And he wants to curb mining along Montana's border with Yellowstone National Park. That could discourage development of two proposed mines that supporters say would offer higher paying jobs than tourism.

    The decision was based on Zinke's belief that "some places are too precious to mine," his spokeswoman said last month.

  9. #8
    Chinese must be itching to mine that $#@!. The feds set aside these lands to preserve them for when the creditors come collecting. They're coming.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Chinese must be itching to mine that $#@!. The feds set aside these lands to preserve them for when the creditors come collecting. They're coming.
    US debt is only secured by the "full faith and credit of the US Government". There is no property backing it. Should the US default, bond holders get nothing. They have no claim to anything.

  12. #10
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  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    US debt is only secured by the "full faith and credit of the US Government". There is no property backing it. Should the US default, bond holders get nothing. They have no claim to anything.
    The "full faith and credit" is your ass, the lands and resources, and all property on the land mass. You didn't think all those foreign governments and corporations were playing the petrodollar game for giggles, did ya? They expect payment in real assets for participation.
    Last edited by devil21; 12-04-2017 at 07:55 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Well ya, they mine a lot because there are a lot of resources there. Maybe God told Brigham Young to stop there for a reason?

    They have done a pretty good job and protecting their most beautiful natural habitats, have you been to Utah and been to some of their protected areas?
    I could put up a lot of pictures like that I took myself...

    But for those who know the SLC area of Utah, I am talking about the ugly strip and pit mines that are an eyesore and dirt/dust blower for the suburbs of SLC. Many suburb areas in other States do mining (usually gravel quarries for construction), but they have the sense to keep them out of site and they take measures to reduce air pollution. I believe they are planning a new strip mine south of Draper.

    I don't know the details on the proposed mines in the formerly protected areas, but judging by past performance, I'd guess that environmental impact will not be a high priority.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Commie folk music...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #14
    Government should own nothing. Nothing. If Utah, or some Native American tribe or other group wants to write a proposal to have land set aside as a preserve or monument, they will have to include provisions for support for the area, including law enforcement, fire, and waste removal/sanitation. None of that should come out of the taxpayers' pockets. Private property ownership is at the heart of personal liberty. The federal government should own nothing outside of the actual Capitol in Washington, and even most of that should be privately endowed.

    The federal government owns most of Nevada. There would be a lot of opportunity for development to combine recreation and conservation and provide revenue for the state. People who want everything preserved should start to think outside the federal government box about how those things can be maintained privately.
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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    The "full faith and credit" is your ass, the lands and resources, and all property on the land mass. You didn't think all those foreign governments and corporations were playing the petrodollar game for giggles, did ya? They expect payment in real assets for participation.
    If they really expect that, they will be disappointed. US debt isn't backed by anything. A mortgage for a home is secured debt- it is secured against the value of the home- it can be sold to collect the money if you don't pay. US Treasury notes are unsecured debt- if the don't pay, you get nothing. There is no claim against any property of the United States.

    https://learnbonds.com/112586/unsecured-bonds/

    Unsecured bonds, (also called “debentures,”) are certificates of debt (usually interest-bearing or discounted) that are issued by a government or corporation in order to raise money. Such types of bonds are not secured by a specific asset, but are backed only by the creditworthiness and reputation of the issuer. The investor only has the issuer’s promise to repay, but no claim on any assets of the defaulted issuer.
    U.S. Treasury bonds are unsecured bonds, which are issued with the full faith and credit of the federal government. They are generally regarded as the lowest risk investment in the world, and are very popular with investors.
    They are basically secured by the US ability to collect taxes.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 12-04-2017 at 08:09 PM.

  18. #16
    Good . Well done , now onto other cuts .



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If they really expect that, they will be disappointed. US debt isn't backed by anything. A mortgage for a home is secured debt- it is secured against the value of the home- it can be sold to collect the money if you don't pay. US Treasury notes are unsecured debt- if the don't pay, you get nothing. There is no claim against any property of the United States.

    https://learnbonds.com/112586/unsecured-bonds/





    They are basically secured by the US ability to collect taxes.
    Perhaps there is one main point that you are overlooking. All of the financial instruments in the system, whether bonds, cash or otherwise are nothing more than promises to pay at a later time. No one can pay debt with debt and all currency is issued from debt, therefore all of the instruments denominated in that currency also suffer from the same ailment of being promises to pay. Nothing is paid for unless it is a value for value exchange. What has value? Surely not paper with dead people's faces on it. Surely not a bond since the bond is nothing more than a promise of future performance. I think that "later time" of collecting real payment is here and payment with real value, like Utah's land for mining, is coming due.

    Otherwise, your claim is essentially that with all the other stuff going on, Trump has time to worry about a couple of parks in Utah and even set aside time to visit them. Yeah sounds legit.
    Last edited by devil21; 12-04-2017 at 09:50 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    I could put up a lot of pictures like that I took myself...

    But for those who know the SLC area of Utah, I am talking about the ugly strip and pit mines that are an eyesore and dirt/dust blower for the suburbs of SLC. Many suburb areas in other States do mining (usually gravel quarries for construction), but they have the sense to keep them out of site and they take measures to reduce air pollution. I believe they are planning a new strip mine south of Draper.

    I don't know the details on the proposed mines in the formerly protected areas, but judging by past performance, I'd guess that environmental impact will not be a high priority.
    I haven't seen many eyesores, as you call them. Utah is filled with natural resources and many are doing a good job with the mines.


    The deepest mine

    Bingham Canyon Mine, located near Salt Lake City, is the world's deepest man-made open pit excavation. The mine is 2.75 miles (4,5km) across and 0.75 mile (1,2km) deep. Since mining operations started in 1906, Bingham Canyon Mine has been the granddaddy of all copper mines. When you're talking about the actual size of the mine, Bingham Canyon is simply the largest copper mine in the USA. If the mine was a stadium, it could seat nine million people.

    Bingham Canyon is primarily a copper mine, but it has also yielded a wide range of byproduct metals. These include 620 tons of gold, 5,000 tons of silver, 276 tons of molybdenum and large amounts of platinum and palladium. The Kennecott mining company extracts daily approximately 450,000 tons of rock out of the mine. With these production statistics, it's no wonder that the Bingham Canyon Mine has been nicknamed "the Richest Hole on Earth." The value of metals produced yearly at Bingham Canyon is US$1.8 billion dollars.

    Kennecott has built a visitor’s center dedicated to educating the public about mining practices, sustainable development and the importance of mining in modern life. Visitors get breathtaking views and the opportunity to see giant electric shovels fill 320-ton capacity haul trucks that deliver ore to the in-pit crusher. A video, historic photographs and 3D models are also available inside the visitor's center.
    http://www.losapos.com/openpitmines
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