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Thread: Trade Wars Begin: Commerce Dept Recommends 23.5% Tariff On All Imports From China, Russia +

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    You do realize that Ron Paul advocates for exactly that - dropping ALL of our trade restrictions regardless of what other countries may do. I'm closer to Ron Paul on this (although, I make some allowances to use lowering our current restrictions as leverage where possible). "Free trade" is nothing but good news for the country that would practice it.

    They key to remember when trading is that you only do it when you gain more wealth out of it - otherwise, you wouldn't make the trade. You don't need governments to tell you that your trade isn't "fair" enough. That's between the people trading. If they both see the benefit, the trade happens and both parties are more wealthy than previously.
    Yes, I'm sure we are all for free trade in a theoretical free market environment. As it is, free trade is like giving hungry people fish for free until they no longer know how or have the means to fish for themselves.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Yes, I'm sure we are all for free trade in a theoretical free market environment. As it is, free trade is like giving hungry people fish for free until they no longer know how or have the means to fish for themselves.
    Hmmm... If they only ate fish, you might be right. But fortunately, the time they save from not fishing is spent on raising cows.

    (In other words, when you get cheap stuff in one sector, you direct your resources to other endeavors. If they cheap stuff goes away, you can use your acquired wealth to adjust.)
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Hmmm... If they only ate fish, you might be right. But fortunately, the time they save from not fishing is spent on raising cows.

    (In other words, when you get cheap stuff in one sector, you direct your resources to other endeavors. If they cheap stuff goes away, you can use your acquired wealth to adjust.)
    I see little evidence of that. Guess we'll see how things shake out.

  5. #64
    Goldman Sachs is against the tariffs and says they will help China and Russia. If Goldman does not like it then it can not be all bad.The FRN note is becoming more and more devalued and we have been getting a free ride for awhile now. How much longer will the exporting countries continue to take the FRN for real goods? Nothing wrong with USA to start producing its own products again.
    USE THIS SITE TO LINK ARTICLES FROM OLIGARCH MEDIA:http://archive.is/ STARVE THE BEAST.
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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by seapilot View Post
    Goldman Sachs is against the tariffs and says they will help China and Russia. If Goldman does not like it then it can not be all bad.The FRN note is becoming more and more devalued and we have been getting a free ride for awhile now. How much longer will the exporting countries continue to take the FRN for real goods? Nothing wrong with USA to start producing its own products again.
    This will not help in producing products but will drive costs up. Expect to see a few more workers in the steel industry hired and a ton of workers in production using steel, fired.
    There is no spoon.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    This will not help in producing products but will drive costs up. Expect to see a few more workers in the steel industry hired and a ton of workers in production using steel, fired.
    US can not produce enough steel?

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    US can not produce enough steel?
    is it now?
    There is no spoon.

  10. #68
    Congressman Ron Paul on Bush's Steel Tariffs:

    Protectionism vs. Liberty
    By Ron Paul

    March 16, 2002

    by Congressman Ron Paul, MD

    I am disheartened by the administration’s recent decision to impose a 30 percent tariff on steel imports. This measure will hurt far more Americans than it will help, and it takes a step backwards toward the protectionist thinking that dominated Washington in decades past. Make no mistake about it, these tariffs represent naked protectionism at its worst, a blatant disregard of any remaining free-market principles to gain the short-term favor of certain special interests. These steel tariffs also make it quite clear that the rhetoric about free trade in Washington is abandoned and replaced with talk of “fair trade” when special interests make demands. What most Washington politicians really believe in is government-managed trade, not free trade. True free trade, by definition, takes place only in the absence of government interference of any kind, including tariffs. Government-managed trade means government, rather than competence in the marketplace, determines what industries and companies succeed or fail.

    We’ve all heard about how these tariffs are needed to protect the jobs of American steelworkers, but we never hear about the jobs that will be lost or never created when the cost of steel rises 30 percent. We forget that tariffs are taxes, and that imposing tariffs means raising taxes. Why is the administration raising taxes on American steel consumers? Apparently no one in the administration has read Henry Hazlitt’s classic book, Economics in one Lesson. Professor Hazlitt’s fundamental lesson was simple: We must examine economic policy by considering the long-term effects of any proposal on all groups. The administration instead chose to focus only on the immediate effects of steel tariffs on one group, the domestic steel industry. In doing so, it chose to ignore basic economics for the sake of political expediency. Now I grant you that this is hardly anything new in this town, but it’s important that we see these tariffs as the political favors that they are. This has nothing to do with fairness. The free market is fair; it alone justly rewards the worthiest competitors. Tariffs reward the strongest Washington lobbies.

    We should recognize that the cost of these tariffs will not only be borne by American companies that import steel, such as those in the auto industry and building trades. The cost of these import taxes will be borne by nearly all Americans, because steel is widely used in the cars we drive and the buildings in which we live and work. We will all pay, but the cost will be spread out and hidden, so no one complains. The domestic steel industry, however, has complained- and it has the corporate and union power that scares politicians in Washington. So the administration moved to protect domestic steel interests, with an eye toward the upcoming midterm elections. It moved to help members who represent steel-producing states. We hear a great deal of criticism of special interests and their stranglehold on Washington, but somehow when we prop up an entire industry that has failed to stay competitive, we’re “protecting American workers.” What we’re really doing is taxing all Americans to keep some politically-favored corporations afloat. Sure, some rank and file jobs may also be saved, but at what cost? Do steelworkers really have a right to demand that Americans pay higher taxes to save an industry that should be required to compete on its own?

    If we’re going to protect the steel industry with tariffs, why not other industries? Does every industry that competes with imported goods have the same claim for protection? We’ve propped up the auto industry in the past, now we’re doing it for steel, so who should be next in line? Virtually every American industry competes with at least some imports.

    What happened to the wonderful harmony that the WTO was supposed to bring to global trade? The administration has been roundly criticized since the steel decision was announced last week, especially by our WTO “partners.” The European Union is preparing to impose retaliatory sanctions to protect its own steel industry. EU trade commissioner Pascal Lamy has accused the U.S. of setting the stage for a global trade war, and several other steel producing nations such as Japan and Russia also have vowed to fight the tariffs. Even British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who has been tremendously supportive of the President since September 11th, recently stated that the new American steel tariffs were totally unjustified. Wasn’t the WTO supposed to prevent all this squabbling? Those of us who opposed U.S. membership in the WTO were scolded as being out of touch, unwilling to see the promise of a new global prosperity. What we’re getting instead is increased hostility from our trading partners and threats of economic sanctions from our WTO masters. This is what happens when we let government-managed trade schemes pick winners and losers in the global trading game. The truly deplorable thing about all of this is that the WTO is touted as promoting free trade!

    It’s always amazing to me that Washington gives so much lip service to free trade while never adhering to true free trade principles. Free trade really means freedom- the freedom to buy and sell goods and services free from government interference. Time and time again, history proves that tariffs don’t work. Even some modern Keynesian economists have grudgingly begun to admit that free markets allocate resources better than centralized planning. Yet we cling to the idea that government needs to manage trade, when it really needs to get out of the way and let the marketplace determine the cost of goods. I sincerely hope that the administration’s position on steel does not signal a willingness to resort to protectionism whenever special interests make demands in the future.

    Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
    There is no spoon.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    You do realize that Ron Paul advocates for exactly that - dropping ALL of our trade restrictions regardless of what other countries may do. I'm closer to Ron Paul on this (although, I make some allowances to use lowering our current restrictions as leverage where possible). "Free trade" is nothing but good news for the country that would practice it.

    They key to remember when trading is that you only do it when you gain more wealth out of it - otherwise, you wouldn't make the trade. You don't need governments to tell you that your trade isn't "fair" enough. That's between the people trading. If they both see the benefit, the trade happens and both parties are more wealthy than previously.
    Oh I am well aware of that, it's one of the few position I disagree with Ron on.

    I've never been a "free trader" or an open borders person.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by seapilot View Post
    Goldman Sachs is against the tariffs and says they will help China and Russia. If Goldman does not like it then it can not be all bad.The FRN note is becoming more and more devalued and we have been getting a free ride for awhile now. How much longer will the exporting countries continue to take the FRN for real goods? Nothing wrong with USA to start producing its own products again.
    A strong dollar will increase our trade deficit. A strong dollar makes what we import cheaper- encouraging more of them- while making our exports more expensive to the countries buying them- discouraging that. That benefits countries like China (and is why the try to keep the value of their currency low relative to the dollar).

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    And lets not forget that much --perhaps all -- of the free trade problem is caused by the federal reserve and the fact that we have the world reserve currency and unlimited credit card. It has allowed us to get fat and not produce anything except debt. Without that, we would have no choice but to produce goods to sell, less we starve.

    If I wanted to destroy the US utterly, it sounds like a great plan... Let them live high on the hog until they no longer have any manufacturing base, then cancel the credit card and let them starve.
    Insert "he's right, you know" meme here

  14. #72
    Last edited by AZJoe; 09-18-2018 at 12:00 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
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  16. #73
    Trump’s Tariffs Betray Base, Cripple More than 200 businesses, farmers, and manufacturers identified as tariff victims

    But the causalities keep piling up. Below is a list of more than 200 separate businesses that have been negatively impacted by Trump’s tariffs. … lost vendors, lost customers, and lost earnings. To compensate, businesses are raising prices, laying off employees, and forgoing hiring & expansion plans.

    Many of these victims are the small businesses, manufacturers, and farmers … The consequences to them will only be exacerbated if Trump doubles tariffs on Chinese goods as he reportedly plans to do. …

    See List at Link
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  17. #74
    90. Lincoln Electric: The welding equipment and supplies maker is raising prices on so-called consumables via surcharges to offset the costs of tariffs.
    Not just Lincoln. All consumable prices will rise.

    The consumables were plenty high for our small regulator/torch rebuild shop 5 years ago. (EPA regs., $4 Saudi gas burp, increase in brass prices/neoprene, etc.)
    We downsized the family venture in 2013, and will end all legal business activity this year.

    Trump and Republican majorities aren't aggressively addressing my 2003 - 2013 challenges, but now, tariffs.

    LOL
    Last edited by bunklocoempire; 09-18-2018 at 03:24 PM.
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  18. #75
    Trump said he would go "all in" if China responded to his tariffs. They did. Will he now tariff the rest of our imports from China? Or will he wait until after the elections to avoid hurting the economy before then?

    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...fs/1349916002/

    Carmakers fret latest round of U.S.-China tariffs

    Automakers stand to be exposed to new tariffs on goods ranging from tires to transmission and brake parts that have been announced by President Donald Trump and China in a burgeoning trade war.

    The Trump administration levied a new 10 percent tariff on $200 billion worth of Chinese goods on Monday night. The tariffs, set to take effect on Sept. 24, are scheduled to increase to 25 percent on Jan. 1. China retaliated with $60 billion worth of new tariffs of its own.

    Automakers have decried the new tariffs. They say the new levies on both sides will hamper their ability to import or export cars and the parts needed to repair them, a complaint that so far has failed to gain traction with the Trump White House.

    "Applying an additional $200 billion in tariffs on China’s exports to the United States will further harm the U.S. auto industry and American workers and consumers," John Bozzella, CEO of the Association of Global Automakers, which lobbies for foreign-owned car manufacturers, said in a statement.

    "Retaliation by China to tariffs already in place has made U.S. auto exports uncompetitive and will eliminate our bilateral auto trade surplus," Bozzella continued. "We support the administration’s efforts to negotiate long-term solutions to the serious issues of (intellectual property) protection and investment restrictions but are concerned that escalating trade tensions will not produce the desired results.”

    Among the new tariffs announced by the Trump administration are "gaskets, washers and other seals, of noncellular vulcanized rubber other than hard rubber, for use in automotive goods" and "wastes of metal-pickling liquors, hydraulic fluids, brake fluids and anti‐freeze fluids."

    The new round of U.S. levies also includes "transmission shafts and cranks other than camshafts and crankshafts" and "new pneumatic radial tires, of rubber, of a kind used on motor cars (including station wagons and racing cars)."

    Michigan's agricultural sector also stands to take another hit under the latest round of tariffs. Commodities such as soybeans, wheat and corn starch are included in the Trump administration's list of goods that are going to be slapped with new tariffs on Sept. 24. China has previously targeted U.S. goods like coffee, honey and industrial chemicals, which would also affect Michigan companies such as Midland-based Dow Chemical Co.
    More at link.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 09-18-2018 at 05:02 PM.

  19. #76
    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/18/macy...-we-hoped.html

    Macy's CEO Gennette says China tariffs situation 'has not gone the way we hoped'

    Macy's CEO Jeff Gennette said the Trump administration's decision Monday to impose a fresh round of tariffs on Chinese goods "has not gone the way we hoped it would."

    The department store chain has been working with suppliers in Asia to prepare for potentially higher tariffs in the administration's escalating global trade war, he told CNBC's Courtney Reagan at the Code Commerce conference in New York Monday evening.

    President Donald Trump announced plans to impose 10 percent tariffs on $200 billion worth of Chinese imports starting Monday, saying the country's trade practices pose a "grave threat" to the long-term health of the U.S. economy. Those duties will rise to 25 percent Jan. 1.

    "With the recent announcement even today, we do expect that there will be more tariffs," Gennette. "It's going to start to affect a department store retailer more significantly because of the apparel pieces that are going to be part of it."

    The National Retail Federation said the tariffs will increase the costs of consumer goods and could slow down a rebound in the retail sector so far this year. Macy's just announced plans to hire more than 80,000 holiday workers to keep up with consumer demand this season, and its shares are up by more than 40 percent so far this year.

    "Every time this trade war escalates, the risk to U.S. consumers grows," NRF CEO Matt Shay said in a statement. "With these latest tariffs, many hardworking Americans will soon wonder why their shopping bills are higher and their budgets feel stretched. ... We cannot afford further escalation, especially with the holiday shopping season right around the corner."
    More at link.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Macy's. Lol. Omegerds, we can't buy cheap crap and mark it up 150%. Woe be on us.

    We cannot be out tariffed. This Trump knows.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Macy's. Lol. Omegerds, we can't buy cheap crap and mark it up 150%. Woe be on us.

    We cannot be out tariffed. This Trump knows.
    The more tariffs, the more people get hurt. Small business gets hurt the worst because they cannot sustain the losses or pass along the costs as easily as the bigger guys can. He is going to cost a lot of jobs in this country while pretending to save them.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The more tariffs, the more people get hurt. Small business gets hurt the worst because they cannot sustain the losses or pass along the costs as easily as the bigger guys can. He is going to cost a lot of jobs in this country while pretending to save them.
    There may be a short term spike but in the long run we would lose far more if we don't fight back in the trade wars.
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