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Why do you advocate FOR people borrowing money from other groups of people under specific titles who are loaning what they do NOT have to begin with? Then to add insult to injury, claim there is Risk in loaning what they did not have to begin with as an excuse to charge interest on top of what they created out of thin air? Who is the real Counterfeiter here?
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
Just to be sure what you are talking about- who is loaning money to who in your case? Should all loans be interest free (would you be willing to loan money out at zero interest- besides to a well known friend?)
If I want to borrow money to buy a house or a car from a lender, should the government prevent that? If he wants to charge me for borrowing that money (interest) and I agree, should the government say we can't do that? Or should the market determine borrowing and interest rates?
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 02:57 PM.
What you are saying is that Lending is impossible without either the Federal Reserve or Fractional Reserve Lending. People can borrow just fine from other people, loaning what they have, not what they create out of thin air and backed by nothing but the borrowers promise to pay.
Your response, as usual, is what Hitler would have called a Loaded Question, and very -REP worthy.
---
Seriously, why are you still here? A normal human being would have left a very long time ago, or at least stopped trying to post anything related to Economics, which is exactly where most of the -REPs I have given you come from, as well as MANY others.
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
What is "fractional reserve lending" and how does it differ from other forms of lending? Are you talking about banks borrowing from the Central Bank (Federal Reserve in the US) or anybody borrowing from any bank? Are you saying banks should not make any loans? Can people loan money to banks (make deposits)? Should all deposits be kept in cash and under lock and key and not one penny let out (a 100% reserve banking system)? Trying to clarify what we are discussing.
Fractional Reserve Banking is a system where a bank must keep at least some fraction of deposits in reserve and not loan out that money. Alternative systems would be zero reserve banking (where they can loan out 100%) or Full Reserve banking where banks are not allowed to loan out any deposits. Zero reserve would be the freest form and 100% the most interference in a free market. You can have fractional reserve banking with a gold standard if you want and with or without a Central Bank.
Not being able to borrow money will considerably slow your economic growth. Companies will have a hard time expanding without access to credit.
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 03:25 PM.
Way to derail the thread.
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
Not necessarily. It likely wouldn't happen, but it's possible for someone in a free market to start a full reserve bank. The terms would be spelled out in the contract you sign when you open an account. Like I was telling Damian, et al in another thread long ago, such a thing is more akin to a safe deposit box than a "bank", and would probably be more of a niche specialty in a free market.
Since you insist on keeping the topic derailed, how about you answer how Govt continues to print money, Banks print money, and how that all relates to Welfare? Does not printing money steal value from the existing money supply which causes the people to become more poor and thus dependent and controllable on those who print the money? Is that not a form of Enslavement? Work for nothing to pay your debts to lenders who have taken no actual risk, and put the consequences of money printing and fractional reserve lending on those who are not afforded the same ability?
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
Lots of questions without answering mine. I was trying to stick with the points you raised. Now you are changing them again.
The Congress determines welfare (assuming you mean things like food stamps types of welfare and not just general well- being of people). They write the spending and tax laws. That happens no matter what you have for money or banking.how that all relates to Welfare?
Same as above. You can have debt under any money or banking system. But lenders do take on risk. The risk you don't pay them back. That is why they ask for interest. Both for a profit for the service they provide as well as to pay for those who do not pay off their loans. Riskier borrowers are charged higher interest due to their higher risks of not paying the money back.Work for nothing to pay your debts to lenders who have taken no actual risk,
Banks don't print money. They can loan out money depositors have loaned to them though (subject to reserve limits).Banks print money
Technically, the Treasury prints physical money. The Central Bank can create money, true. And too much money creation can be a bad thing. But so can too little- it is a difficult balance. They try to judge how they are doing based on price inflation and unemployment.
What about a fixed money supply? Suppose we allowed one gold coin for money in our economy and no more money than that. How could the economy function? I give you the coin for some food. Now I have no more money and you have it all. I can't buy anything from you anymore so you have no more income. The economy is frozen. No inflation but no transactions either. Unless we find a way to conduct more transactions. Maybe more money?
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 06:09 PM.
So the banks are like middlemen loaners. When they hand over that money, there is an account for that loan In The Red and they want to see it move to being In The Black in the ledger.
I think there is a perception that Banks regularly over extend them loaning out more than what they really have on deposit and people find this frustrating or see lots of potential danger in doing this.
Insurance. Not total spent on healthcare.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/pdf/homch17.pdf 107 pages. Go to page 106 Under the heading Medical Care. Health insurance = .7
Look at your pie chart. Who in the world spends 1% on Food and Beverage. The link I listed says 15 percent.
Last edited by loveshiscountry; 05-20-2018 at 09:31 PM.
Thank you for the link. That is what they say. Also keep in mind that this is the average person direct costs. If your insurance is from your employer, only your out of pocket counts towards the CPI insurance costs. If you are covered by the VA or Medicare, again, only the portion of that insurance you are paying is counted. Not everybody is paying $5000 a year themselves for their insurance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health..._United_States
During 2016, the U.S. population overall was approximately 325 million, with 53 million persons 65 years of age and over covered by the federal Medicare program.
For the remaining 272 million non-institutional persons under age 65:
There were 155 million with employer-based coverage, 90 million with other coverage, and 27 million uninsured.
Of the 90 million with other coverage, 57 million were covered by Medicaid and Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), 12 million were covered by the ACA/Obamacare exchanges, 11 million were covered by the ACA Medicaid expansion, and 10 million had other coverage, such as private insurance purchased outside the ACA exchanges.
Of the 12 million on the ACA exchanges, 10 million received subsidies and 2 million did not.[1]
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 09:48 PM.
I am only counting the Insurance cost that comes directly out of pocket. If the percerntage was figured correctly one would add the employer contribution to income then divide that amount by the total cost and we'd be over 20 percent 15k/70k vs 5k/55k.
This isn't about one person who happens to be covered by the VA or Medicare. It's about the median family and the costs associated with that median family. The median family is not paying $550 a year for Healthcare insurance. CPI is a scam
If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are zero. If you are under Medicaid and don't pay any insurance premiums, your out of pocket insurance costs are zero. If one family is paying for example $5000 a year and the other two are paying zero, then the average person is paying $1600- not $5000. The portion of your insurance costs paid by somebody else are not counted as part of your (the average person's) expenses. CPI attempts to calculate what the average person actually pays out of their own pockets. Most people have somebody else paying most if not all of their insurance costs (actually they are paying too- it is in the form of lower wages in the case of employer paid insurance or higher taxes in the case of government funded/ subsidized insurance premiums). The figure is not based on what average premiums are since it has to account for people who have no premiums as well.
Out of 325 million in the US, 53 million have Medicare. 155 million get insurance through their employer. 27 million have no insurance. 57 million get theirs through Medicaid or CHIP. Ten million were on Obamacare but got subsidies. All those people were paying little to no money out of their own pockets or at least below average for their medical insurance. Those add up to 300 million people or 90% of the population.
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 11:14 PM.
The 155 million who get their insurance through their employer are paying a much higher percentage than 1%. Why in the world are grouping them and saying they pay little money? They're paying ~5k a year out of pocket. Quit saying that's a small number when it's not. It's no where near .7% of what the median family makes.
Median family. CPI is fraud.
"If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are zero. "
Tell me the percentage of people who receive that? If the employer is paying it the costs are the value of the coverage. That's a form of income.
"Since 2001, the number of employers on Fortune's "100 Best Companies to Work For" list who provide full health coverage to employees has dropped from 34 percent to just 9 percent in 2016."
Employees not family members.
Last edited by loveshiscountry; 05-20-2018 at 11:27 PM.
If a family of four has one wage earner and they have say employer covered insurance, then that is four people (not just one) not paying health insurance premiums. Employer coverage may not necessarily be 100% of premiums- that was an example- but the employer is still picking up a considerable portion of that amount. I have employer coverage and only pay $20 a month towards my premiums. So as far as the CPI is concerned, my health insurance costs are $120 a year. All those government programs and employer plans greatly lower the costs for the average person's insurance costs.Employees not family members.
If one pays $100, one pays zero, one pays $200 and one pays $5000, the average expense is $1325. The more people you have paying little to no insurance premium costs, the lower the average expenses for insurance premiums are for the entire population. Employer plans, CHIP, Medicare, Medicaid, uninsured.
Let's say I have $10. I will loan you $100, and you will pay me $110 for it. Make sense?
If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are 100%, because that is part of your wages.
Stay home from work and see if they still pay...
Last edited by fedupinmo; 05-21-2018 at 07:02 AM.
Originally Posted by Andrew Ryan
Zippy is the reason valuable posters leave. This thread was derailed and ruined long before I even saw it.
I'm not sure that's how it works.
Would it really be more like a Bank receives a Deposit of $100 and must keep some of that in reserve as say $10, so they're allowed to loan out $90?
Beyond this I'm sure it gets more complicated as we're not really accounting for the incoming loan payments including interest. I'm not sure if interest received is another asset that is applied to allowing Banks to issue bigger loans or if that is taken as profit or spend on misc. business expenses.
If your employer is paying 100% you are paying zero. CPI measures your out of pocket costs for things. You didn't pay the premium- your employer did. The money did not come out of your take home wages. Yes, your wages may be lower because your employer is covering your insurance but that does not count in the CPI. It looks at what you are actually paid and what you actually spend.
If you are a person and have $10, you can loan me $10. If you are a bank and you have $10 in deposits, you are allowed to loan out $9 if there is a ten percent reserve requirement.Let's say I have $10. I will loan you $100, and you will pay me $110 for it. Make sense?
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-21-2018 at 11:17 AM.
The verbage isn't "not paying". It's value received.
A very small amount of people don't directly pay. You're deflecting from the amount of money your employer pays for you which is income. The main reason you get it in the form of health care insurance is taxes.
One isn't paying zero, one isn't paying $100, one isn't paying $200. It's about the median family.
You explained the methodology. Which helps show why CPI is worthless.
Last edited by loveshiscountry; 05-21-2018 at 09:47 PM.
The same arguments for 10 freaking years now. Nobody here has read any economic opinion he's posted and thought, "Hey, he has a point!" On the other side of that, he isn't here to even debate. He's only here to educate us, because God knows he's the smartest person on the forums.
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