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Thread: Senate Passes $631 Billion Military Spending Bill 98-0

  1. #1

    Senate Passes $631 Billion Military Spending Bill 98-0

    The Senate has unanimously passed their version of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), a $631 billion military spending bill, with 98 votes in favor. The unanimity of the vote, according to analysts, was because of a “lack of controversial issues.”

    The things that weren’t controversial enough to muster even a single no vote included a new round of sanctions against Iran, a permanent ban on ever transferring detainees from Guantanamo Bay, and continued funding for the occupation of Afghanistan.

    Oh, and lest we forget, the Senate version also included the Feinstein Amendment, which nominally was supposed to ban open-ended military detention of American citizens captured on American soil, but was so awkwardly worded and filled with loopholes that proponents of the detention voted for it because they believe it will make it even easier for the military to capture Americans under the new law.

    The bill is slightly different from a House version already passed, which is $634 billion. Officials say the two are close enough that it will be easy to solve in committee, however.
    http://news.antiwar.com/2012/12/04/s...ing-bill-98-0/



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  3. #2
    Who were the 2 that didn't vote?
    I am the spoon.

  4. #3

  5. #4
    Oh, and lest we forget, the Senate version also included the Feinstein Amendment, which nominally was supposed to ban open-ended military detention of American citizens captured on American soil, but was so awkwardly worded and filled with loopholes that proponents of the detention voted for it because they believe it will make it even easier for the military to capture Americans under the new law.
    Isn't it heartwarming to see bipartisanship in action?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  6. #5
    $631 Billion is good enough for you Rand?

  7. #6
    So Rand Paul voted for this bloated abomination?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  8. #7
    Yep.
    Paul (R-KY), Yea

  9. #8
    I so miss the lone votes of dissent.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care



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  11. #9
    AntiWar.com isn't exactly known to be a bastion of accuracy in their information.

    Senator Mike Lee has already explained why he thinks that amendment was ok.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    AntiWar.com isn't exactly known to be a bastion of accuracy in their information.

    Senator Mike Lee has already explained why he thinks that amendment was ok.
    Mike Lee is inaccurate. I still don't know if the amendment was ok but Lee was wrong, or his staffer was. the 2012 NDAA did NOT have an exception carving out citizens from the ENTIRE NDAA as the bracketed quote in Lee's write up indicated, that carve out was only to indefinite detention under Section 1022 NOT 1021. Since West made the exact same error last year, I'm thinking someone looked at the bill for the 'tea party', did it wrong, and the memo or whatever was used by a lot of 'tea party' types. Inaccurately.

    I haven't seen the final of the Feinstein amendment to work through if all is well for myself, but Lee's write up was wrong.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  13. #11
    Say YES to $631 Billion to Defense & BS about Fiscal Cliffs.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    Mike Lee is inaccurate. I still don't know if the amendment was ok but Lee was wrong, or his staffer was. the 2012 NDAA did NOT have an exception carving out citizens from the ENTIRE NDAA as the bracketed quote in Lee's write up indicated, that carve out was only to indefinite detention under Section 1022 NOT 1021. Since West made the exact same error last year, I'm thinking someone looked at the bill for the 'tea party', did it wrong, and the memo or whatever was used by a lot of 'tea party' types. Inaccurately.

    I haven't seen the final of the Feinstein amendment to work through if all is well for myself, but Lee's write up was wrong.
    "You can ask 10 different Constitutional scholars the same question and get 10 different answers" - JMDrake
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    "You can ask 10 different Constitutional scholars the same question and get 10 different answers" - JMDrake
    Yet if you ask Matt Collins, he will try to discredit antiwar.com with statements like:

    AntiWar.com isn't exactly known to be a bastion of accuracy in their information.
    If Matt Collins doesn't agree, he doesn't provide facts, he goes the slimy route and discredits the information.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    "You can ask 10 different Constitutional scholars the same question and get 10 different answers" - JMDrake
    I can analyse it myself to my own satisfaction.

    and did at least analyze what Lee put out, here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4755876

    but I have to get the amendment and look at it as it passed to really conclude what the result of passing it was, overall. Someone should let Lee know his analysis is based on faulty construction, though. That faulty construction seems to be being passed around between Congressmen.
    Last edited by sailingaway; 12-05-2012 at 03:47 PM.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Yet if you ask Matt Collins, he will try to discredit antiwar.com with statements like:



    If Matt Collins doesn't agree, he doesn't provide facts, he goes the slimy route and discredits the information.
    Unlike some people around here, I know what I know, but I also know what I don't know too. I'm not going to comment on something I don't have a full grasp of, it would be responsible of me to do so. That's something many in the liberty movement need to learn.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Unlike some people around here, I know what I know, but I also know what I don't know too. I'm not going to comment on something I don't have a full grasp of, it would be responsible of me to do so. That's something many in the liberty movement need to learn.
    This sure sounds like you commenting on something you don't know much about:

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    AntiWar.com isn't exactly known to be a bastion of accuracy in their information.

    Senator Mike Lee has already explained why he thinks that amendment was ok.
    And please don't tell us what we NEED to learn... You weren't ordained ambassador to the liberty movement.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Unlike some people around here, I know what I know, but I also know what I don't know too. I'm not going to comment on something I don't have a full grasp of, it would be responsible of me to do so. That's something many in the liberty movement need to learn.

    This is my grasp:

    Russia and China Combined:

    215 Billion


    631/215 = Almost 3X Russia and China's Budget Combined


    Global Military Spending

    1.5 Trillion


    631B/1.5 = 42% of global spending


    Canada and Mexico? 23B and 5B = 28B combined

    631/28 = 22.5X the budget of Mexico and Canada COMBINED


    The only countries with higher military spending as a % GDP

    North Korea, Chad, and the Middle Eastern Countries: Jordan, Lebanon, Yemen, Israel, Eritrea, Irag, UAE, and Saudi Arabia



    I feel plenty responsible reporting.
    Last edited by presence; 12-05-2012 at 04:49 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    AntiWar.com isn't exactly known to be a bastion of accuracy in their information.

    Senator Mike Lee has already explained why he thinks that amendment was ok.
    I don't give a rat's ass if the amendment WAS okay. $630 billion dollars for the DOD is NOT okay.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    So Rand Paul voted for this bloated abomination?
    Had he voted against this bill, he would've been voting in favor of indefinite detention for American citizens and to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Had he voted against this bill, he would've been voting in favor of indefinite detention for American citizens and to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely.
    I'm not following your logic. Cite? Quote?

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I'm not following your logic. Cite? Quote?
    The bill contained the Lee-Feinstein amendment which protects the 6th amendment for Americans, and it contains an amendment calling for a transition out of Afghanistan. Had Rand voted against this bill, he would in effect be voting against passing a bill that contains two important amendments that he fought for.

    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00213
    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00210

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    The bill contained the Lee-Feinstein amendment which protects the 6th amendment for Americans, and it contains an amendment calling for a transition out of Afghanistan. Had Rand voted against this bill, he would in effect be voting against passing a bill that contains two important amendments that he fought for.

    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00213
    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00210
    Valid point, +rep for mentioning that before I ranted off half cocked.

  26. #23
    the 2 senators who did not vote had prior commitments? is this THE BILL our sitting potus asked gentleman mitt to help him get a consensus on?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Had he voted against this bill, he would've been voting in favor of indefinite detention for American citizens and to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely.
    Uh. No. By that logic, he should vote for a bill that slaughters 400 thousand newborn infants, because it also contains his amendment.
    Last edited by TheTexan; 12-05-2012 at 06:21 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    Uh. No. By that logic, he should vote for a bill that slaughters 400 thousand newborn infants, because it also contains his amendment.
    Rand has said before that while he supports ending the war in Afghanistan, he doesn't support immediately cutting off all funding for the war. So it shouldn't be that surprising that he voted for this. It doesn't mean that he supports the wars that we're currently involved in. It just means that he doesn't want to be accused of de-funding our troops in the field. He wants to be seen as someone who supports a more responsible, humble foreign policy, but also someone who supports our military.

  30. #26
    I would also assume that in the Senate, you would harm your reputation when you fight very hard for a couple amendments to get included, filibustering the bill yourself for awhile, getting the amendments passed, and then voting against the bill. When it's going to pass regardless, sometimes it's strategically to your advantage to just vote for it. I highly doubt as an executive, we'd be worrying about Rand detaining citizens and waging needless war.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    This is my grasp:

    Russia and China Combined:

    215 Billion


    631/215 = Almost 3X Russia and China's Budget Combined


    Global Military Spending

    1.5 Trillion


    631B/1.5 = 42% of global spending


    Canada and Mexico? 23B and 5B = 28B combined

    631/28 = 22.5X the budget of Mexico and Canada COMBINED


    The only countries with higher military spending as a % GDP

    North Korea, Chad, and the Middle Eastern Countries: Jordan, Lebanon, Yemen, Israel, Eritrea, Irag, UAE, and Saudi Arabia



    I feel plenty responsible reporting.
    In fiscal year 1986 to 87
    Local, state, and federal governments
    Spent a combined total of 16.6 billion dollars
    On law enforcement

    Federal law enforcement expenditures
    Ranked last in absolute dollars
    And accounted for only 6% of all federal spending

    By way of comparison
    The federal government spent 25 millon more
    On space exploration and 43 times more on national defense
    And national relations then on law enforcement

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    The bill contained the Lee-Feinstein amendment which protects the 6th amendment for Americans, and it contains an amendment calling for a transition out of Afghanistan. Had Rand voted against this bill, he would in effect be voting against passing a bill that contains two important amendments that he fought for.

    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00213
    http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00210
    Thanks,

    SA 3018. Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself, Mr. LEE, Mr. COONS, Ms. COLLINS, Mr. PAUL, Mr. LAUTENBERG, Mrs. GILLIBRAND, and Mr. KIRK) submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by her to the bill S. 3254, to authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2013 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe military personnel strengths for such fiscal year, and for other purposes; which was ordered to lie on the table.
    At the end of subtitle D of title X, add the following:
    SEC. 1032. PROHIBITION ON THE INDEFINITE DETENTION OF CITIZENS AND LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENTS.
    Section 4001 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
    (1) by redesignating subsection (b) as subsection (c); and
    (2) by inserting after subsection (a) the following:
    ``(b)(1) An authorization to use military force, a declaration of war, or any similar authority shall not authorize the detention without charge or trial of a citizen or lawful permanent resident of the United States apprehended in the United States, unless an Act of Congress expressly authorizes such detention.
    ``(2) Paragraph (1) applies to an authorization to use military force, a declaration of war, or any similar authority enacted before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the National Defense Authorization Act For Fiscal Year 2013.
    ``(3) Paragraph (1) shall not be construed to authorize the detention of a citizen of the United States, a lawful permanent resident of the United States, or any other person who is apprehended in the United States.''.

    SA 3096. Mr. MERKLEY (for himself, Mr. PAUL, and Mr. MANCHIN) submitted an amendment intended to be proposed


    [Page: S7086] GPO's PDF by him to the bill S. 3254, to authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2013 for military activities of the Department of Defense, for military construction, and for defense activities of the Department of Energy, to prescribe military personnel strengths for such fiscal year, and for other purposes; which was ordered to lie on the table; as follows:
    At the end of subtitle B of title XII, add the following:
    SEC. 1221. COMPLETION OF ACCELERATED TRANSITION OF UNITED STATES COMBAT AND MILITARY AND SECURITY OPERATIONS TO THE GOVERNMENT OF AFGHANISTAN.
    (a) Sense of Congress.--It is the sense of Congress that the President shall, in coordination with the Government of Afghanistan, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) member countries, and other allies in Afghanistan, seek to--
    (1) undertake all appropriate activities to accomplish the President's stated goal of transitioning the lead responsibility for security to the Government of Afghanistan by mid-summer 2013;
    (2) as part of accomplishing this transition of the lead responsibility for security to the Government of Afghanistan, draw down United States troops to the minimum level required to meet this goal;
    (3) as previously announced by the President, continue to draw down United States troop levels at a steady pace through the end of 2014; and
    (4) end all regular combat operations by United States troops by not later than December 31, 2014, and take all possible steps to end such operations at the earliest date consistent with a safe and orderly draw down of United States troops in Afghanistan.
    (b) Rule of Construction.--Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit or prohibit any authority of the President--
    (1) to modify the military strategy, tactics, and operations of United States Armed Forces as such Armed Forces redeploy from Afghanistan;
    (2) to authorize United States forces in Afghanistan to defend themselves whenever they may be threatened;
    (3) to attack Al Qaeda forces wherever such forces are located;
    (4) to provide financial support and equipment to the Government of Afghanistan for the training and supply of Afghanistan military and security forces; or
    (5) to gather, provide, and share intelligence with United States allies operating in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
    I still think he should have abstained or nay voted. He had to of known it was going to pass anyway.

    But Mr. Paul, your cosponsored bill was in that NDAA legislation....

    "I understand, and I abstained because I do not agree to spending a 1/5 of 631B on DOD, which was the primary purpose of the NDAA."


    ...I'm not a politician though.
    Last edited by presence; 12-05-2012 at 08:47 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by supermario21 View Post
    I would also assume that in the Senate, you would harm your reputation when you fight very hard for a couple amendments to get included, filibustering the bill yourself for awhile, getting the amendments passed, and then voting against the bill. When it's going to pass regardless, sometimes it's strategically to your advantage to just vote for it. I highly doubt as an executive, we'd be worrying about Rand detaining citizens and waging needless war.
    So, the usual refrain of "don't criticize Rand for his rhetoric, criticize his voting record" is now "well, you know, maybe you should look at his last name. Do you really think he'd do that stuff?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Had he voted against this bill, he would've been voting in favor of indefinite detention for American citizens and to stay in Afghanistan indefinitely.
    I seem to remember Bob Barr saying the reason he supported the Patriot Act was so he could support a 'sunset clause'.

    I also seem to remember that the Patriot Act still exists.

    We need to be very careful about going along for some ill-gotten and ultimately useless caveat, however noble the intentions.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 12-05-2012 at 08:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

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