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Thread: Why Do People Believe This Lie?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    It’s very complicated and both sides make compelling points. God will correct things in time as He always has.

    As for Rome, they have much greater problems they are sorting out right now. Some within the RC are calling Pope Francis a heretic and pushing for his termination. Not to mention the serious homosexual/pedophila problems which are being uncovered. They need our prayers.
    That's interesting. I know Francis has made a number of statements that contradict official Roman Catholic doctrine and dogma, but I was not aware he had been accused of heresy by fellow Catholics. Do you know what heresy he's accused of? #curious
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    That's interesting. I know Francis has made a number of statements that contradict official Roman Catholic doctrine and dogma, but I was not aware he had been accused of heresy by fellow Catholics. Do you know what heresy he's accused of? #curious
    Sex. Well, his attitude toward it.

    https://www.catholicworldreport.com/...ope-of-heresy/

    What else?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    That's interesting. I know Francis has made a number of statements that contradict official Roman Catholic doctrine and dogma, but I was not aware he had been accused of heresy by fellow Catholics. Do you know what heresy he's accused of? #curious
    Its not JUST sex, but there is a lot about divorce and remarriage and his attitude towards them. I think its very concerning, and I think Francis has been pushing the envelope a lot.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    This raises a question. In your mind would this apply to the Roman Catholic Church? And why or why not?
    I would think it applies to the RC Church as well, as these are ancient understandings which are found in the theology of the Apostolic Fathers. However, I do admit I have not studied RC ecclesiology in depth and how they may see this differently (that is, that the fullness of the Church resides in the local ekklesia with bishop, clergy and laity).


    One thing I've noticed with EOs is I've never been able to get a definitive answer on whether Roman Catholic sacraments are valid or not, and I've seen some hinting that categorizations like valid or invalid might not exist in EO (BTW: A lot of what I know of EO, though not all of it, comes from Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick's podcast "Ancient Faith" where he goes through Eastern Orthodoxy and contrasts it with a bunch of other worldviews. I listened to the introductory episodes and the episodes on Roman Catholicism and Magisterial Protestantism.
    I very much enjoy Father Andrew’s podcast and his books! He is a great resource. As for the validity of RC sacraments (from the EO position), there is debate and it is true that you will not get a clear concise answer. The most polemic answer is no, the most charitable answer is yes, and the best answer (IMO) is we don’t know. RC Baptism, as long as it is in the Name of the Holy Trinity, and with water (immersion of course preferred over sprinkling), is generally accepted as valid throughout Orthodoxy. Some do not accept it, but that has historically been in the minority. Converts usually need to be Chrismated. As for the Holy Eucharist, it is generally considered to be without grace. That does not mean it has no benefit for those who faithfully partake, for God can make children out of stones and can bless and sanctify whatever He wills, but it does not have the assured grace of the Holy Eucharist within the EO Divine Liturgy. This applies for the remaining RC sacraments.

    What you will find is that there is a general difference on the approach and understanding of the sacraments and the life in Christ in general between the RC and the EO. The EO understanding of the Church as a spiritual hospital and the sacraments as ‘medicine’ is paramount. This applies as well to the RC, however through certain different theological paths which have happened in the past (especially with Anselm and Aquinas), legalistic trappings have been incorporated as well as the need to explain divine truths using human logic and reason. The Orthodox are very happy to bow to the mystery of God and simply say ‘we don’t know’. We don’t feel the need (or even the appropriateness) to explain divine and revealed mysteries (such as the Holy Eucharist, uncreated grace) using limited human comprehension and language. The secular mind wants answers using knowledge accumulated through scholastic endeavors, even with divine mysteries. The Orthodox don’t need to know or explain how it is that the bread and the wine have transformed into the divine Body and Blood of Christ. It is so because Christ said it is so and because the living experience of the Saints within the ekklesia has confirmed in the heart what the mind cannot explain. So, you will find that in EO, you get used to answers such as ‘only God knows’, and that is a very good thing IMO. For those with analytical minds, this can be frustrating at first. But in time, it indeed becomes liberating.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  6. #125
    I would like to see it split off to its own topic.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I had in mind particularly Peter's successors in the Church of Rome. That being said, I think what you present is an exaggerated view of the papacy. Catholics don't believe the Pope is infallible in everything he says or everything he does. We obviously know Honorius promoted heresy for instance. Recently multiple cardinals have corrected Pope Francis, and there was recently a letter by a number of clerics accusing him of heresy. I think the reasoning behind the "Vicar of Christ" title is just that the Church is a monarchy and since the Church is visible on earth, it needs a visible king. Obviously we acknowledge that Christ is ultimately king over the Church, but he reigns from heaven and thus is not locally present administering the day to day.

    I'm not sure that's the very best explanation, but at any rate we don't say the Pope in and of his own person, or every single thing he says, is infallible, but only when he's solemnly defining doctrine as dogmatic and to be believed by the entire Church.

    We know there have been many popes who have lived morally reprobate lives, and some who have even taught errors, but not in the definite capacity of an ex cathedra definition.

    BTW this isn't meant as a polemic against EO, just as an explanation of what we really do, and don't, teach about the papacy.
    I confess I have not studied RC ecclesiology at depth and most of what I have read have come from Orthodox authors. I do understand that Papal Infallability is in regards to the pope speaking ex cathedra. I don’t exactly know how that works. It seems like a legalistic safety clause which I find in other RC practices.

    For example, when it comes to the Holy Sacrament of Marriage, the Orthodox do allow for divorce. It is seen as a sad consequence of the fall, of broken people who tragically can no longer live together after all efforts have been exhausted to save the marriage. Out of mercy and compassion, the Church allows for divorce. Again, the Church is a spiritual hospital whose goal is to provide assistance for the salvation of souls. It acknowledges the weakness of men and prays to God for mercy on their behalf. The Catholic Church does not allow for divorce. It maintains that the bond is irrevocably created and thus divorce is forbidden. So how do they go around the reality of married people falling out and requiring separation in order to further prevent damage to their eternal souls? They create an annulment, in other words, a legal excuse, or safety clause, to say that the marriage never occurred in the first place. Why make up such stories? Instead, accept that men are weak, that we fail in living up to standards we should live up to, and pray to the ever-loving and compassionate God for mercy.

    While I do admit that certain polemic arguments made by the Orthodox against RC can be exaggerated (myself being such an offender), it is not however without good reason. For history demontrates times when the RC has taken liberty to make illicit changes in doctrine, the most notable being the Filioque (the very Symbol of Faith - the Creed, was unilaterally and uncanoncially (read: illegally) changed!). I assure you, theologically speaking, this has major implications into the Monarchial understanding of the God-head as well as the understanding of grace and the workings and Person of the Holy Spirit. The other changes, such as papal infallibility, the immaculate conception, the understandings of original sin, the juridical overemphasis of penal substitutionary theory, were all developed through time and mostly apart from the Eastern Church. These doctrinal changes and developments, which in some cases are novel and in certain cases completely without patristic support, have led to the widened rift.

    Note, I am not saying that these RC doctrines are heretical or wrong (though I would say it, but again in the end, God knows better than me). Rather, they have developed apart from the EO Church which is more keen to hold onto the apostolic faith and teachings which have been handed down from the early Church Fathers (who were mostly from the East and were Greek speaking). It was in fact in the East where every early Ecumenical Council was held in order to defend the orthodox, catholic teachings from the many encroaching heresies which popped up (note, not one of the eight Holy Ecumenical Council was held in Rome or presided over by the Roman Pope) and it was in the East where the greatest number of defenders of the Christian Faith and theologians lived and taught in those formative first centuries. The distancing between the Latin speaking and Greek speaking halves of the Church had real and lasting effects. One can only wonder what the Church would look like now had St. Augustine read more of the earlier Church Fathers! Nevertheless, he is regarded as a great Saint in both Churches as he should be. After all, what the RC and EO share is great compared to what separates them. But these differences are meaningful, and for that reason I urge you to take your time in your catechism and do not rush. In the early Church, the catechism would last three years. Now, most catechumens wait one year. I don’t know what your plans are, but there is no reason to rush, and I say this regardless if you were to join the RC or the EO. In the end, it is God Who will lead you if you allow Him to. But that means we have to be patient and allow Him to lead. God is not our co-pilot. He is our pilot! We, as servant, simply need to listen, be humbly obedient, and first of all, be patient!

    I wish you a blessed Sunday and hope to speak again soon!
    Last edited by TER; 05-05-2019 at 10:20 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  8. #127
    I completely forgot about this thread... somehow.

    I'll try to get back to it (or the new thread if there is one, I need to check) either tomorrow or the day after.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I completely forgot about this thread... somehow.

    I'll try to get back to it (or the new thread if there is one, I need to check) either tomorrow or the day after.
    No worries my friend, take your time. Whenever you are ready, just start a new thread and we can continue our enjoyable discussion!
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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