Build. The. Dome. [Edit: Immigration Debate Pt. 3,187]

[Philhelm]

One word, tunnel.

The best way to stop illegal border crossings is to make it legal. Just give them a green card. It's not that $#@!ing hard.

I get that people here have different opinions over what is "libertarian," or what sort of governance is right and proper, but unrestricted immigration seems like it would be a problem for those who consider themselves to be libertarian, libertarianesque, anarchoid, etc., even if supporting immigration restrictions is paradoxical. The problem is that most immigrants come from cultures that have different values, and they bring their different values with them. Many of them, if given the chance to vote (since a green card opens a 3 - 5 year path to citizenship), would likely support more restrictions on free speech ("hate speech," etc.), mandatory vaccinations, more restrictions on firearms, etc. It doesn't make sense to cheerlead the importation of the very soldiers that the government will use to dilute your already weak political power.

[Brian4Liberty]

Jefferson seemed to favor immigration to the extent that people could be assimilated, but we're not even able to have that discussion anymore.

... I doubt the expediency of inviting them by extraordinary encouragements...

Yeah, "extraordinary encouragements" would be terrible. Good thing we don't do that. All we do is support charities that travel the world gathering up, feeding, clothing and transporting immigrants to our border, while those same charities and our Democrat politicians promise them citizenship, welfare, free healthcare, free education, free citizenship, parties, drugs and even a job (if they want one after all the free stuff).

Yes, people would get upset with "extraordinary encouragements". That would be the last straw. Good thing that is not happening.

[Brian4Liberty]

I get that people here have different opinions over what is "libertarian," or what sort of governance is right and proper, but unrestricted immigration seems like it would be a problem for those who consider themselves to be libertarian, libertarianesque, anarchoid, etc., even if supporting immigration restrictions is paradoxical. ...

It wasn't paradoxical when most "libertarians" agreed that eliminating the welfare state was a prerequisite for open immigration. But that opinion doesn't pay the bills for beltway libertarians, and it doesn't fit the narrative of the stealth left libertarians.

[Swordsmyth]

It wasn't paradoxical when most "libertarians" agreed that eliminating the welfare state was a prerequisite for open immigration. But that opinion doesn't pay the bills for beltway libertarians, and it doesn't fit the narrative of the stealth left libertarians.

It would also be reversed by the first wave of immigrants to gain franchise.

[69360]

I get that people here have different opinions over what is "libertarian," or what sort of governance is right and proper, but unrestricted immigration seems like it would be a problem for those who consider themselves to be libertarian, libertarianesque, anarchoid, etc., even if supporting immigration restrictions is paradoxical. The problem is that most immigrants come from cultures that have different values, and they bring their different values with them. Many of them, if given the chance to vote (since a green card opens a 3 - 5 year path to citizenship), would likely support more restrictions on free speech ("hate speech," etc.), mandatory vaccinations, more restrictions on firearms, etc. It doesn't make sense to cheerlead the importation of the very soldiers that the government will use to dilute your already weak political power.

You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.

[nobody's_hero]

You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if open-door immigration was a net benefit for libertarian political influence, the elites would shut down the border in a heartbeat. Must be some reason they promote opening the gates at every possible turn. Like you know, this massive, concerted, propagandized effort to bring in as many immigrants as possible. . .

can't quite put my finger on it.

what could possibly be the reason?

[Brian4Liberty]

Yeah, "extraordinary encouragements" would be terrible. Good thing we don't do that. All we do is support charities that travel the world gathering up, feeding, clothing and transporting immigrants to our border, while those same charities and our Democrat politicians promise them citizenship, welfare, free healthcare, free education, free citizenship, parties, drugs and even a job (if they want one after all the free stuff).

Yes, people would get upset with "extraordinary encouragements". That would be the last straw. Good thing that is not happening.

...Many of the border crossers staying at the Watson Hotel, paid for by taxpayers, are refusing to leave and have instead set up a homeless encampment outside the hotel. There, they are demanding the city “cancel rent” and provide them with “permanent homes.”...

My bad, I missed the free housing...

[Philhelm]

You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.

Do you believe that more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies?

[69360]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if open-door immigration was a net benefit for libertarian political influence, the elites would shut down the border in a heartbeat. Must be some reason they promote opening the gates at every possible turn. Like you know, this massive, concerted, propagandized effort to bring in as many immigrants as possible. . .

can't quite put my finger on it.

what could possibly be the reason?

They can't stop it. Nobody can.

[69360]

Do you believe that more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies?

If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%

[Occam's Banana]

They can't stop it. Nobody can.

They can't stop what? All in-migration? I suppose they can't.

But they can stop enticing, encouraging, and engineering these massive inorganic influxes we're seeing.

They can do that, but they won't - because they know those influxes work to their political advantage. After all, that's exactly why they're enticing, encouraging, and engineering those influxes in the first place.

Democrats in particular and leftists in general do not support so-called "open borders" immigration policies because they believe in the so-called "freedom to travel", or in the organic and economically natural "free flow of labor"[1], or in any such things. They support it because it gives them more opportunities to gain more power. And this is true entirely regardless of what the political sensibilities of the immigrants themselves might be. The mere presence of such inordinate numbers is exploited as a justification for more government action and control (in the form of more spending programs, for just one of the more obvious examples), which in turn gives them yet more power and control over other sectors (such as health care, education, etc.).



[1] The "free flow of labor" does not in any way need or require the assistance of innumerable pro-immigration "NGO"s, Chambers of Commerce, and/or activist groups (let alone government - i.e., tax-payer - funded ones).

Do you believe that more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies?

If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%

I think the idea that "more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies" is absurd.

But even if I'm wrong and that's true - hell, even if it were "closer to 100%"- it still wouldn't matter.

As noted above, their mere presence en masse is used to justify greater government involvement in and control of education, health care, housing, etc., etc., etc. - entirely regardless of what policies the immigrants themselves do or do not agree with or support.

[Anti Federalist]

They can't stop it. Nobody can.

Of course you can stop it.

We just lack the will.

[Anti Federalist]

Democrats in particular and leftists in general do not support so-called "open borders" immigration policies because they believe in the so-called "freedom to travel", or in the organic and economically natural free flow of labor, or in any such things. They support it because it gives them more opportunities to gain more power. And this is true entirely regardless of what the political sensibilities of the immigrants might be. The mere presence of such inordinate numbers is exploited as a justification for more government action and control (in the form of more spending programs, etc.), which in turn gives them yet more power and control over other sectors (such as health care, education, etc.).

It's even worse than that.

Never forget: these are Marxist wreckers.

They know millions and millions and millions of migrant invaders will do much more than increase their power in the existing structures of United States society and culture and government.

That's some tempting window dressing for the fools and useful idiots we have an abundance of to lap up and keep them motivated.

But ultimately, the goal is the utter destruction of those institutions.

Liberty, individual freedom, limited government, faith, the bill of rights, every political, societal and government institution and philosophy, once the Marxists have consolidated power, all those things will be as dead and gone as the Tsars and Rasputin.

[Occam's Banana]

It's even worse than that.

Never forget: these are Marxist wreckers.

They know millions and millions and millions of migrant invaders will do much more than increase their power in the existing structures of United States society and culture and government.

That's some tempting window dressing for the fools and useful idiots we have an abundance of to lap up and keep them motivated.

But ultimately, the goal is the utter destruction of those institutions.

Liberty, individual freedom, limited government, faith, the bill of rights, every political, societal and government institution and philosophy, once the Marxists have consolidated power, all those things will be as dead and gone as the Tsars and Rasputin.

All of that can be subsumed in my reference to their desire for more "power" and "control". It would not be enough for them merely to want the destruction of which you speak. They would also have to possess the ability to actually implement it - and by the means I noted, unchecked mass immigration would help provide them with (or bring them closer to) the degree of power and control necessary to achieve it.

But as far as the particular point I was trying to make is concerned, it doesn't really matter what their ultimate aim might be. Even in the absence of such a goal as you describe, that point would remain: it doesn't really matter what the immigrants themselves actually want or believe, or what policies they would or would not support. Their mere presence in such large numbers, all by itself, will be (and is) used to justify and excuse the desired policies (regardless of what the ultimate goal of those policies may be).

So long as significantly large numbers of immigrants are arriving here as a result of artificially political (rather than organically economic [1]) factors, it doesn't matter how decent or hard-working (or "libertarian", or whatever) some of those immigrants might be. Collectively and en masse, they are still just pawns and cat's-paws being used to empower a coalition of particular political factions to the detriment of liberty.



[1] An example of significantly large but organically "economic" immigration is the massive influx of Scots-Irish migrants into America in the 1800s. While this did have important political and cultural consequences (as any such large influx is apt to do), this was not the result of an intentional attempt to foster or engineer particular political outcomes (though it was certainly exploited "after the fact", so to speak, by politicians as best they could - because of course it was). The same can rarely (if at all) be said of today's (deliberate inculcation of) mass immigration. (As with so many other issues, the feds should never, ever have been permitted to have anything to say or do about it - and we are now living with the consequences of that failure.)

[Swordsmyth]

You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.

It's not an assumption when it's the product of data and history.

[Swordsmyth]

They can't stop it. Nobody can.

It's easy to stop it.
Countries all over the world and throughout history have stopped it.

[Swordsmyth]

If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%

They are parasites so they go where the money and power are.
They don't support liberty, just its fruits. (which they fail to associate with liberty)

[Philhelm]

If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%

That doesn't even make sense. We have immigrants who would say that they believe in freedom of speech and then say that disrespecting the Prophet Muhammad should be illegal. Just because they may think that they want to live free doesn't mean that they subscribe to our notion of liberty.

Also, how is your stance not an assumption? At least my stance is grounded in polling data (immigrants strongly favor Democrats). Sure, poll data is flawed, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think differently.

[TheTexan]

Also, how is your stance not an assumption? At least my stance is grounded in polling data (immigrants strongly favor Democrats). Sure, poll data is flawed, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think differently.

From any data based perspective, the idea that the immigrants coming in are anything but Marxist, is entirely laughable.

I would say 69360 must be high to come to such conclusion, but I doubt he's ever done drugs.

[Brian4Liberty]

Do you believe that more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies?

No need for "believing" anything. The experiment has been run, and immigrants tend to support Democratic socialism.

If they didn't, they wouldn't come here. If you stop the handouts that number will get closer to 100%

That's just like, your opinion, man. And it's wrong.

...
I think the idea that "more than 50% of immigrants support pro-liberty policies" is absurd.
...

Based upon real world experience, it is simply wishful thinking or obfuscation.

That doesn't even make sense. We have immigrants who would say that they believe in freedom of speech and then say that disrespecting the Prophet Muhammad should be illegal. Just because they may think that they want to live free doesn't mean that they subscribe to our notion of liberty.

Also, how is your stance not an assumption? At least my stance is grounded in polling data (immigrants strongly favor Democrats). Sure, poll data is flawed, but I haven't seen anything that would make me think differently.

Never let facts get in the way of good propaganda and spin.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I didn't say it wasn't.

Yes you did.

[Anti Federalist]

You seem to have the same problem. You make assumptions about the political leanings of immigrants.

They are not not "assumptions".

Decades of polling, research and analysis, show that first generation migrants overwhelmingly vote leftist.

[Swordsmyth]

They are not not "assumptions".

Decades of polling, research and analysis, show that first generation migrants overwhelmingly vote leftist.

And their children and grandchildren do too even if the rate decreases over the generations.