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Thread: California To Become First US State Mandating Solar On New Homes

  1. #31
    Just another reason to (1) shop for a house, not in California and (2) buy an old house and if you want solar.. get it .. if you don't , don't.
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!



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  3. #32
    Mandates are bad, but the oil depletion allowance, a socialist hand-out to the oil industry, is ok? I don't hear anybody yelling about that.

    I take mandates on a case by case basis. It is obviously a good mandate that you cannot dump mercury in rivers. I think the time is right for a mandate like this. Let's get off the fossil fuel junk and stop polluting the planet for our grandchildrens' sake.

    The worthiness of the goal outweighs the evil of having a mandate. People are too selfish to do it on their own, so you have to have a mandate.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    ^^this^^

    I'm all for solar, hell I'd get solar if I could go off grid. The mandating is terrible. Perhaps even in the long run this reduces our national dependence on oil and thus Middle East politics (wishful thinking?).
    Exactly.

    The problem is that we are already "mandated" to have gas/electric energy. Try going off the grid in any community and you will risk having your property taken from you- or having it declared uninhabitable and the wrecking crews sent out.
    There is no spoon.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
    The worthiness of the goal outweighs the evil of having a mandate. People are too selfish to do it on their own, so you have to have a mandate.
    You are so right comrade.

    Onward! to a new glorious future!

    (And people said I was nuts when I suggested that a great deal of Bernie supporters were actually Ron Paul supporters that had "moved on")

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    I think it could be a good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
    Mandates are bad, but the oil depletion allowance, a socialist hand-out to the oil industry, is ok? I don't hear anybody yelling about that.

    I take mandates on a case by case basis. It is obviously a good mandate that you cannot dump mercury in rivers. I think the time is right for a mandate like this. Let's get off the fossil fuel junk and stop polluting the planet for our grandchildrens' sake.

    The worthiness of the goal outweighs the evil of having a mandate. People are too selfish to do it on their own, so you have to have a mandate.
    Out of curiosity, do either of you have solar panels on your homes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  8. #36
    Adding large costs too home construction in an already overly expensive market . Electric water heaters too , more expensive to run than nat gas . In an ordinary home in electric the water heater will consume 20 percent of electricity purchased .
    Do something Danke

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Adding large costs too home construction in an already overly expensive market . Electric water heaters too , more expensive to run than nat gas . In an ordinary home in electric the water heater will consume 20 percent of electricity purchased .
    We're all electric and I don't think our water heater uses that much. I suspect our three heat pumps are the main energy drains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    We're all electric and I don't think our water heater uses that much. I suspect our three heat pumps are the main energy drains.
    What do ya do with three heat pumps ?
    Do something Danke

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    What do ya do with three heat pumps ?
    Two for the house and one for the pool. I'm not completely selfish, we have a solar cover, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    We're all electric and I don't think our water heater uses that much. I suspect our three heat pumps are the main energy drains.
    Try running electric or heat pump heat where I live.

    It'd bankrupt you.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Try running electric or heat pump heat where I live.

    It'd bankrupt you.
    I think it would be like a house payment here too
    Do something Danke

  15. #42
    Oh yeah, yetone more thing for the looters and salvagers to steal from all the vacant homes when the next housing crisis inevitably strikes California.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  16. #43
    With no letup in home prices, the California exodus surges

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wi...ges-2018-05-03

    Published: May 6, 2018 10:58 a.m. ET

    Say goodbye to Hollywood, Billy Joel sang in 1976.

    Now, in the midst of a deepening housing crisis, thousands of people are following that advice.

    Over a million more people moved out of California from 2006 to 2016 than moved in, according to a new report, due mainly to the high cost of housing that hits lower-income people the hardest.

    “A strong economy can also be dysfunctional,” noted the report, a project of Next 10 and Beacon Economics. Housing costs are much higher in California than in other states, yet wages for workers in the lower income brackets aren’t. And the state attracts more highly-educated high-earners who can afford pricey homes.

    There are many reasons for the housing crunch, but the lack of new construction may be the most significant. According to the report, from 2008 to 2017, an average of 24.7 new housing permits were filed for every 100 new residents in California. That’s well below the national average of 43.1 permits per 100 people.

    If this trend persists, the researchers argued, analysts forecast the state will be about 3 million homes short by 2025.

    What does it mean?

    California homeowners spend an average of 21.9% of their income on housing costs, the 49th worst in the nation, while renters spend 32.8%, the 48th worst. The median rent statewide in 2016 was $1,375, which is 40.2% higher than the national average. And the median home price was — wait for it — more than double that of the national average.

    One coping strategy: California residents are more likely to double up. Nearly 14% of renter households had more than one person per bedroom, the highest reading for this category in the nation.

    Coping can also mean leaving.

    In a separate analysis, Realtor.com found that the number of people searching real estate listings in the 16 top California markets compared to people living there and searching elsewhere was more than double that of other areas — and growing.

    And in those areas — counties including Santa Clara, San Mateo and Los Angeles — the growth in views of listings on Realtor.com was virtually unchanged compared to a year ago this spring, while views of listings in other U.S. areas were 15% higher.

    Also read: America’s new great migration in search of lower property taxes

    The Next 10 and Beacon Economics researchers used Census data to track migration patterns by demographic characteristics. More than 20% of the 1.1 million people who moved in the decade they tracked did so in 2006, at the height of the housing bubble, when prices were, as they write, “sky-high.”

    As the housing market imploded and prices came back to earth, migration out of the state slowed. But as prices recovered, “out-migration” has not only picked up steam, it’s accelerated.

    Those migration patterns are shaped by socioeconomics. Most people leaving the state earn less than $30,000 per year, even as those who can afford higher housing costs are still arriving. As the report noted, California was also a net importer of highly skilled professionals from the information, professional and technical services, and arts and entertainment industries. On the other hand, California saw the largest exodus of workers in accommodation, construction, manufacturing and retail trade industries.

    (In a note about what this statewide trend might mean for the national economy, the report also calls the housing crunch “most dire” in agricultural areas, particularly the Central Valley and Imperial County.)

    And where those refugees head may say a lot about why they’re going. The top five destinations for California migrants between 2014 and 2016 were the nearby, but generally cheaper, states of Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon and Washington.
    Median statewide home prices
    California $549,000
    Texas $295,000
    Arizona $339,000
    Nevada $344,900
    Oregon $420,000
    Washington $420,000
    (as of 4/1/2018, source Realtor.com)

    It’s worth noting that many housing analysts and economists believe that the 2017 tax law changes may push residents of higher-priced properties out of high-tax states like California. But that isn’t happening yet.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Exactly.

    The problem is that we are already "mandated" to have gas/electric energy. Try going off the grid in any community and you will risk having your property taken from you- or having it declared uninhabitable and the wrecking crews sent out.
    Would they do that if i just refused service but not necessarily disconnect the wiring?

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
    Mandates are bad, but the oil depletion allowance, a socialist hand-out to the oil industry, is ok? I don't hear anybody yelling about that.

    I take mandates on a case by case basis. It is obviously a good mandate that you cannot dump mercury in rivers. I think the time is right for a mandate like this. Let's get off the fossil fuel junk and stop polluting the planet for our grandchildrens' sake.

    The worthiness of the goal outweighs the evil of having a mandate. People are too selfish to do it on their own, so you have to have a mandate.
    I hope you are joking.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    You are so right comrade.

    Onward! to a new glorious future!

    (And people said I was nuts when I suggested that a great deal of Bernie supporters were actually Ron Paul supporters that had "moved on")
    If Madison were alive I think he would demand that JML change his moniker.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Out of curiosity, do either of you have solar panels on your homes?
    I live in a condo so already my carbon footprint is smaller than yours.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
    I live in a condo so already my carbon footprint is smaller than yours.
    Doubleplusgood comrade, very rightthinkful of you.

    Perhaps a mandate requiring all proles to have their property forfeited to the state and moved into stack a prole units is in order.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Oh yeah, yetone more thing for the looters and salvagers to steal from all the vacant homes when the next housing crisis inevitably strikes California.
    This will never happen.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    I think it could be a good thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
    Mandates are bad, but the oil depletion allowance, a socialist hand-out to the oil industry, is ok? I don't hear anybody yelling about that.

    I take mandates on a case by case basis. It is obviously a good mandate that you cannot dump mercury in rivers. I think the time is right for a mandate like this. Let's get off the fossil fuel junk and stop polluting the planet for our grandchildrens' sake.

    The worthiness of the goal outweighs the evil of having a mandate. People are too selfish to do it on their own, so you have to have a mandate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Out of curiosity, do either of you have solar panels on your homes?
    /End thread.

    I don't even need to read the posts after this to know the answer.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    /End thread.

    I don't even need to read the posts after this to know the answer.
    I was curious because I read this vvv article. I don't consider myself a green but I am cheap and looked into solar panels when I was trying to decide on a pool heater. The panels were not only cost prohibitive upfront, the long term savings wasn't even there for us. In the end, we decided to be more responsible with our energy usage so the pool heater wasn't a complete money drain. I'm pretty proud of us because our electric bill with the added heater is lower than it was before. And, not only that, our electric bill is lower than the neighbor's I've had the opportunity to compare it to.

    And, btw, there's a lot of maintenance to do on solar panels. We were looking at having ours installed on the roof (where I assume most are installed) and you have to get up there and clean them fairly regularly or they're pointless. During pollen season in GA when I run the pool heater, the solar panels would be useless I climbed up on the roof and cleaned them everyday. That's a lot of water! I wonder how much water I'd waste cleaning the damn things and aren't we suppose to be conserving water?



    Study: Greens Believe they have a “Moral License” to Pollute

    A new study suggests that most greens believe that by virtue of their support for environmental issues they earn the right to ignore their personal responsibilities.

    ON CLIMATE CHANGE, A DISCONNECT BETWEEN ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIOR

    A new study finds climate change skeptics are more likely to behave in eco-friendly ways than those who are highly concerned about the issue.

    TOM JACOBSAN



    Participants in a year-long study who doubted the scientific consensus on the issue “opposed policy solutions,” but at the same time, they “were most likely to report engaging in individual-level, pro-environmental behaviors,” writes a research team led by University of Michigan psychologist Michael Hall.

    Conversely, those who expressed the greatest belief in, and concern about, the warming environment “were most supportive of government climate policies, but least likely to report individual-level actions.”



    Hall and his colleagues can only speculate about the reasons for their results. But regarding the concerned but inactive, the psychological phenomenon known as moral licensing is a likely culprit.

    Previous research has found doing something altruistic—even buying organic foods—gives us license to engage in selfish activity. We’ve “earned” points in our own mind. So if you’ve pledged some money to Greenpeace, you feel entitled to enjoying the convenience of a plastic bag.

    Regarding climate change skeptics, remember that conservatism prizes individual action over collective efforts. So while they may assert disbelief in order to stave off coercive (in their view) actions by the government, many could take pride in doing what they can do on a personal basis.



    Read more: https://psmag.com/environment/mission-compostable

    ....

    Academics competing to see who can log the most air miles, Jetset hypocrites calling for “deniers” to be banned from public office, large climate conferences full of frequent fliers; the brazen climate hypocrisy of leading greens is nothing new to regular readers of WUWT.

    But this study goes a step further – it is not just the leaders who are complete hypocrites. The leaders of the green movement are not duping followers with their hypocrisy, they are an expression of the top to bottom hypocrisy of their entire movement. The most vocal climate supporters are actually the people who care least about the planet – all those noisy expressions of concern are camouflage to conceal the fact they are deeply selfish people who can’t be bothered to make a personal effort to improve the world they claim to love.

    I pick up trash outside my house – because I like having a nice house, I like living on a nice street. I don’t think it is someone elses job to make my little corner of the world a better place. If I thought CO2 was a problem I would make a personal effort to reduce my carbon footprint.

    Perhaps that sense of personal ownership, of responsibility for one’s actions, is what is missing from the green movement – a point made by the authors of the study.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/05/...se-to-pollute/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
    Mandates are bad, but the oil depletion allowance, a socialist hand-out to the oil industry, is ok? I don't hear anybody yelling about that.

    I take mandates on a case by case basis. It is obviously a good mandate that you cannot dump mercury in rivers. I think the time is right for a mandate like this. Let's get off the fossil fuel junk and stop polluting the planet for our grandchildrens' sake.

    The worthiness of the goal outweighs the evil of having a mandate. People are too selfish to do it on their own, so you have to have a mandate.
    It is the "selfishness" of the people that will drive the market solution. When the free market offers alternate solutions to home energy that are better than we have now, it will happen naturally. There is no reason for the solar producers to innovate their product when there customer must purchase from them that under threat of force.

    This mandate will stifle solar technology advancement along with other alternate methods. You will see states that choice free market make better strides.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by dean.engelhardt View Post
    It is the "selfishness" of the people that will drive the market solution. When the free market offers alternate solutions to home energy that are better than we have now, it will happen naturally. There is no reason for the solar producers to innovate their product when there customer must purchase from them that under threat of force.

    This mandate will stifle solar technology advancement along with other alternate methods. You will see states that choice free market make better strides.

    Welcome to the watch list friend
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Would they do that if i just refused service but not necessarily disconnect the wiring?
    Apparently YES.

    Here's some articles about going off the grid:

    https://www.theinertia.com/environme...ff-the-grid-2/

    https://offgridworld.com/off-grid-li...legal-sort-of/

    https://www.primalsurvivor.net/off-grid-illegal/

    https://tipsforsurvivalists.com/stat...g-off-the-grid
    There is no spoon.

  29. #55
    Abstract: We conducted a one-year longitudinal study in which 600 American adults regularly reported their climate change beliefs, pro-environmental behavior, and other climate-change related measures. Using latent class analyses, we uncovered three clusters of American with distinct climate belief trajectories: (1) the “Skeptical,” who believed least in climate change; (2) the “Cautiously Worried,” who had moderate beliefs in climate change; and (3) the “Highly Concerned,” who had the strongest beliefs and concern about climate change. Cluster membership predicted different outcomes: the “Highly Concerned” were most supportive of government climate policies, but least likely to report individual-level actions, whereas the “Skeptical” opposed policy solutions but were most likely to report engaging in individual-level pro-environmental behaviors. Implications for theory and practice are discussed.

    https://osf.io/bd4fn/

    Hmmm. Might this thread be case in point?
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    Abstract: We conducted a one-year longitudinal study in which 600 American adults regularly reported their climate change beliefs, pro-environmental behavior, and other climate-change related measures. Using latent class analyses, we uncovered three clusters of American with distinct climate belief trajectories: (1) the “Skeptical,” who believed least in climate change; (2) the “Cautiously Worried,” who had moderate beliefs in climate change; and (3) the “Highly Concerned,” who had the strongest beliefs and concern about climate change. Cluster membership predicted different outcomes: the “Highly Concerned” were most supportive of government climate policies, but least likely to report individual-level actions, whereas the “Skeptical” opposed policy solutions but were most likely to report engaging in individual-level pro-environmental behaviors. Implications for theory and practice are discussed.

    https://osf.io/bd4fn/

    Hmmm. Might this thread be case in point?
    they left off part of the categories (4) The enlightened -who believe someone somewhere is full of poop. They're not sure how and why.. just
    that something is making their BS meter tilt
    (5) The educated - who can read a thermometer and analyze temperature statistics
    (6) The fully awake - who see global warming as the tax scam that it is

    none of those is reporting squat regarding their personal behavior.
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!



  31. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Stockholm syndrome on display.
    No I just know how Kalifornication is. They killed the free market there a long time ago. People that live there want to be regulated they vote in politicians who will give them what they want. It is what they want. They want someone to tell them what to do so this is what they have. I choose not to live there because I do not like higher taxes and regulations. I would not go there again even to make a big deal on solar systems which I also sell. I will send my son

  33. #58
    Government intrusion of this type is rarely a good answer for anything. And in this case, these non-elected bureaucrats may just be moving to meet an arbitrary goal for the reduction of greenhouse gases at the expense of something else the California state government is responsible for — the safety of its citizens.
    Last year, wildfires in California destroyed more than 1.3 million acres of land in the state. Governor Jerry Brown famously blamed the destructive fire season on climate change, although it can be shown that much of the blame lies with the state and federal governments and their mismanagement of wild forests and chaparral areas. But regardless of who or what is to blame, will future fire seasons in the Golden State be made better by the addition of thousands of new ignition sources?
    The link between solar panels and fires is a contentious one, but it is there. The Society of Fire Prevention Engineers (SFPE) notes the dangers. From SFPE’s website: “One of the many dangers to solar panels is how the panel and its mounting system impact the combustibility of the overall roof system. Some solar panels, for example, include a backing of highly combustible plastic.”
    Many home insurers require special riders for homes with solar panels owing to the additional risks associated with them. It’s ironic that in a state that is extremely vulnerable to wildfires, unelected bureaucrats have decided to add more possible ignition sources to each new home built.
    Of course, none of this is to say that solar panels aren’t useful and that they should never be used. But simply due to the risk involved in putting them on a home, especially in fire-prone areas, the decision on whether to use them or not should lie exclusively with the homeowner. It certainly shouldn’t be the decision of unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats.

    More at: https://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/...but-is-it-safe
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Would they do that if i just refused service but not necessarily disconnect the wiring?
    In many places, yes.

    The King's Men will evict you from a home that does not have an active account for electric service.

  35. #60

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