You can argue the swamp lost their way. They were not supposed to $#@! the commoners so hard.Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty
They do that to every approved Republican.. Republicans will not nominate him if they don't. They did it to Ford. They did it to Reagan. They didn't do any more to H.W. than absolutely necessary (God forbid they piss that one off). Bob Dole knows they did it to Bob Dole. They did it to Dubya and then some. They did it to McCain until they realized no Republicans liked him, then they backed off. They did it to Romney.
They did.
All of them.
Republicans won't nominate them otherwise.
The ones they don't approve of Must Not Be Named.
Perhaps to a certain extent, but what has happened around Trump with the swamp trying to eliminate him is unprecedented.
My hypothesis is that they didn’t trust him not to expose the corruption and crimes that preceded him. He said he would put Hillary in jail. What else would he do? How far would he go? What secrets might he reveal? They had to either eliminate him or keep him constantly reeling from attacks.
They still don’t trust him, but they are more than happy to run his administration for him and get as much out of it as they can, with the added bonus that they can blame it on Trump.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
Good thread. It's telling at this point. I mentioned something along the same lines a couple weeks ago. Had the same board participants mentioning the same talking points and the same similar attacks on their perceived threats, in a previous thread (and many threads that came before and after), and obfuscating the fact that they, in their efforts to be anti-Trump 24/7, will use the pro-socialism angle, if necessary, to make the polemic against Trump and his supporters/defenders here.
You don't have to like Trump at all, he is what he is and we aren't getting anywhere near as much reduction in government and deep state power as we should be, and many understandably think that he is a fraudster doing the bidding of the Bush family and the neocons, or that he is on the take from the beginning and was always going to work for the deep state, but that doesn't mean you have to endorse socialism or argue on behalf of it, in order to attack or oppose anyone that likes/supports Trump in even the slightest. This is what is happening, this is why there is a peak amount of neutral or pro socialist posts now on the boards. This is why Tulsi, who is decent on foreign policy (until we actually want to pull troops out), is even being highlighted or talked about here in increasingly positive ways, and her economic policies are being virtually ignored.
It's possible many of these people doing this now, are not here because they support liberty and seek to divide our little community here. In fact, I would say it's likely. It's also possible that there are those that joined the liberty/Ron Paul movement in an organic way, but were coming from a liberal standpoint. We had a lot of previous Obama voters come into the fold in 2012. We had people that even voted for Ralph Nader in 96/00/04 or Kerry in 04 that had had it, and wanted to see some real change happen and signed up with RP in 08. The stories are endless, but a lot of these people were likely pro welfare state and pro-centralized government doing good things from the get go. They may have rethought a couple things as RP ironed them out on economics a bit, but now that we have Trump in there, they have unknowingly or willingly regressed back to their big government ideologies in a defensive stance as some of these socialist ideas are now being attacked more than ever, and attacking Trump more hides or deflects away from the insecurity that these people will be seen for what they are.
That's what you are seeing and what will continue to happen. The efforts and momentum will continue long after Trump is gone, so make no mistake about it, this isn't about just him, this is about core ideologies that were rotten from the start and are only now being exposed as our own government continues to be exposed for the fraud that it is on the American people.
Last edited by Champ; 02-25-2019 at 11:28 PM.
Or it fails because the United States does not want the world to see socialist countries, like Iraq, Syria, and Libya succeed, so they utterly destroy them.
Libya
Libya
Libya was a successful socialist nation
Libya
Libya
Libya had no real economic crisis.
Libya
Libya
Libya is a capitalist $#@!hole now.
Not even RPF is immune from stupidity.
THE SQUAD of RPF
1. enhanced_deficit - Paid Troll / John Bolton book promoter
2. Devil21 - LARPing Wizard, fake magical script reader
3. Firestarter - Tax Troll; anti-tax = "criminal behavior"
4. TheCount - Comet Pizza Pedo Denier <-- sick
@Ehanced_Deficit's real agenda on RPF =troll:
Who spends this much time copy/pasting the same recycled links, photos/talking points.
7 yrs/25k posts later RPF'ers still respond to this troll
Like $#@! they did. Stop trying to tell me bald faced lies to my face. Every one here was alive during Romney. None of the GOP candidates got anything like the Trump treatment. NOT EVEN CLOSE. I WAS ALIVE AT THE TIME, SO YOU DON'T GET TO TRY AND LIE TO MY $#@!ING FACE LIKE THAT, and insult my intelligence like I can't remember.
...because they're socialists?
Them shoving a non-politician on us was unprecedented. His third grade behavior was unprecedented. Us making the progress we did with Ron Paul, and getting him that much crossover support was unprecedented. The poll numbers were unprecedented. Making us endure more than a dozen years of war was unprecedented. Them giving the amount of publicity they did to an ex-Socialist Party crank was unprecedented.
So were the poll numbers. They were getting approval ratings of, what, 15%? The internet was unprecedented, and they were just getting a handle on their trolling technique.
Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.
Besides, I don't remember it that way. They roasted Dubya hard. Maybe you don't remember because you didn't like the little bastard, and knew he deserved it. They roasted Reagan hard, too.
Republicans vote for the candidate who gets a bunch of bad publicity. They don't vote for He Who Gets Ignored and they don't vote for He The Liburral Media Likes. Republican primary voters are incredibly easy to play.
And the internet only made it easier. All it takes is a little schoolyard bullying to keep them on the Approved Candidate.
Why are you shouting? Am I cutting into your cognitive dissidence?
When did they have time to give Romney everything they've given Trump? Did Romney get elected? Did I say they gave them all the same sized ration of $#@!? Did I say that? Don't you think they watch the polls to see if its working before they pile it on? Why do you think they spend those millions on those polls?
Did I say they all get the same size ration if $#@!? Did I? No, I did not. In fact, I said just the opposite. Didn't I?
Were you alive and old enough to qualify as sentient during the Dubya era? Does the Reagan video above surprise you?
No. I'm not lying. Sorry if that bursts your little bubble. Bit hey. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.
Last edited by acptulsa; 02-26-2019 at 06:15 AM.
Unprecedented my ass! How many bullets has Trump taken?? And did you forget the attempt to impeach w, and the fake documents the media promulgated? Herding cats is easy.
Amash>Trump
ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ
"Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77
"ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather
"Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy
Regarding the original debate, it seems like you guys don't all use the same definition of socialism nor the same definition of collapse. Try agreeing to definitions first.
Amash>Trump
ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ
"Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77
"ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather
"Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy
There's a bottom line for you. +rep
We can't get a Paul nominated because Republicans would literally rather get suckered again than admit they got suckered before.
They aren't cats. Herding them is easy. Easy.
Good points made but its not just the definition of socialism but what level of socialism that can lead to a "collapse". Some people say that Venezuela buying majority shares of private companies is the height of socialism but the US frequently seizes public property all the time(claiming terrorism and such). During the economic crisis, the US took control of Chrysler and bought off the current shareholders in what many analysts(share holders sued and lost) say was a bad deal and yet people still continue doing business in the US.
Oh...you mean Hyper Socialism, Hyper Colllectivism
Any institution that is not libertarian and classically liberal will, over time, become collectivist and statist. - John O'Sullivan's First Law
The wisdom of Swordy:
On bringing the troops home
On fighting corruption:
Fascism Defined
Any institution that is not libertarian and classically liberal will, over time, become collectivist and statist......and then go on to conquerer the world. Jules Winfield
I define socialism as a system where the needs of the state are placed above the rights of the individual. The important point that many here are missing is that it's a sliding scale between capitalism and socialism. All out capitalism is the same as libertarianism. All out socialism is communism although I don't really get too hung up on terms. The point is how much government control exists.
Venezeuela went from a mixed economy to all out socialism/communism in a short period of time. Nationalizing corporations is about as severe a move in the direction of socialism as you can get. For example socialized health care is only a small move in the direction of socialism compared to randomly confiscating private property. That's why it should be no surprise that Venezuela went from a relatively prosperous middle class economy to a mess in a short period of time.
So again my point is that a small move towards socialism isn't going to cause a collapse but a big move is. And Venezuela made about the biggest move possible. Only all out communist revolutions like the USSR and Cuba are more severe moves.
The other point is that EVERYONE says they are against socialism on a general level. But then they contradict themselves when you get down to the detail level.
The obvious answer to that is not put Hillary in jail, which every smart person knew was what would actually happen, and they were proved right.
Another word for that is statism. And all states that have ever existed fit this definition.
If the US nationalized most of its corporations like Venezuela, it would only take a few years.
Not even close. All out socialism = communism where no one is even permitted to own private property.
Yup. Statism is really a more accurate term.
But it's a sliding scale. A little statism doesn't cause much damage, but a lot will.
That seems to be the current “textbook” definition. Marx wouldn’t agree. Interesting subject though...
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
Most people realized it was hyperbole. The swamp was not amused, and was not willing to risk it. Even if there was a slight chance he would carry through with it, they had to act.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
There's never going to be a pure system. Just varying degrees. The point is that Venezuela went from a mixed economy to all out statism where private property is more or less abolished, in a short period of time.
Maybe that's the issue. Maybe most people here don't realize how drastically Venezuela shifted to statism.
I'll post this again:
Factbox: Venezuela's nationalizations under Chavez
6 MIN READ
(Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez was re-elected on Sunday to another six-year term, potentially extending his rule to two decades and cementing his status as a dominant figure in modern Latin American history.
In 14 years in office, Chavez has nationalized major swaths of the OPEC nation’s economy as part of a socialist agenda.
Venezuelans expect more takeovers to come, possibly in the banking, health and food sectors.
Below are the main nationalizations under Chavez:
OIL
* In 2007, Chavez’s government took a majority stake in four oil projects in the vast Orinoco heavy crude belt worth an estimated $30 billion in total.
Exxon Mobil Corp and ConocoPhillips quit the country as a result and filed arbitration claims. Late last year, an arbitration panel ordered Venezuela to pay Exxon $908 million, though a larger case is still ongoing.
France’s Total SA and Norway’s StatoilHydro ASA received about $1 billion in compensation after reducing their holdings. Britain’s BP Plc and America’s Chevron Corp remained as minority partners.
* In 2008, Chavez’s administration implemented a windfall tax of 50 percent for prices over $70 per barrel, and 60 percent on oil over $100. Oil reached $147 that year, but soon slumped.
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ADVERTISING
* In 2009, Chavez seized a major gas injection project belonging to Williams Cos Inc and a range of assets from local service companies. This year, the energy minister said the government would pay $420 million to Williams and one of its U.S. partners, Exterran Holdings, for the takeover.
* In June 2010, the government seized 11 oil rigs from Oklahoma-based Helmerich & Payne Inc.
AGRICULTURE
* In 2009, Chavez nationalized a rice mill operated by a local unit of U.S. food giant Cargill Inc.
* In October 2010, Venezuela nationalized Fertinitro, one of the world’s biggest producers of nitrogen fertilizer, as well as Agroislena, a major local agricultural supply company. It also said it would take control of nearly 200,000 hectares (494,000 acres) of land owned by British meat company Vestey Foods.
* Vestey had already filed for arbitration over the earlier takeover of a ranch. Chavez said the latest deal with Vestey was a “friendly agreement.”
* In 2005, Chavez began implementing a 2001 law letting the state expropriate unproductive farms or seize land without proper titles. He has redistributed millions of acres deemed idle to boost food production and ease rural poverty.
* Chavez’s government has repeatedly threatened to seize Empresas Polar, Venezuela’s biggest employer and largest brewer and food processor.
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FINANCE
* In June 2010, Venezuela took over the mid-sized bank Banco Federal, citing liquidity problems and risk of fraud. The bank was closely linked to anti-government TV station Globovision.
* In 2009, Chavez paid $1 billion for Banco de Venezuela, a division of Spanish bank Grupo Santander.
* The government has closed a dozen small banks since November 2009 for what it said were operational irregularities. Some were reopened as state-run firms. Brokerages have also been closed and some employees jailed. Chavez has vowed to nationalize any bank that fails to meet government lending guidelines or is in financial trouble.
INDUSTRY
* In October 2010, Chavez ordered the takeover of the local operations of Owens Illinois Inc, which describes itself as the world’s largest glass container maker.
* Chavez in April 2008 announced the government takeover of the cement sector, targeting Switzerland’s Holcim Ltd, France’s Lafarge SA, and Mexico’s Cemex SAB de CV.
GOLD
* Chavez has considered bringing mining more firmly into state hands, and in 2009 the mining ministry seized Gold Reserve Inc’s Brisas project, which sits on one of Latin America’s largest gold veins. Gold Reserve immediately filed for arbitration with ICSID.
Pence, allies take new steps against Maduro
* In August 2011, Chavez said he was nationalizing the gold industry. Toronto-listed Rusoro Mining Ltd, owned by Russia’s Agapov family, was the only large gold miner operating in Venezuela, and this year it filed for arbitration.
STEEL
* The government paid $2 billion in 2009 for Argentine-led Ternium SA’s stake in Venezuela’s largest steel mill.
TELECOMMUNICATIONS
* In 2007, the nation’s largest telecommunications company CANTV was nationalized after the government bought out the U.S.-based Verizon Communications Inc’s 28.5 percent stake for $572 million. Analysts said Verizon received fair compensations for its assets.
POWER
* In 2007, Venezuela expropriated the assets of U.S.-based AES Corp in Electricidad de Caracas, the nation’s largest private power producer. The government paid AES $740 million for its 82 percent stake in the company. Analysts described the deal as fair for AES.
TRANSPORT
* In September 2011, the government nationalized a local ferry company, Conferry, which operates from the mainland to the resort island of Margarita. Conferry is owned by a wealthy family and began operating in 1959.
TOURISM
* In October 2011, Chavez said his government would seize private homes on the Los Roques archipelago in the Caribbean and use them for state-run tourism. The islands are among the nation’s favorite and most expensive tourist spots, with pristine white beaches and coral reefs that teem with sea life.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-v...89701X20121008
But wait there's more!:
Under Presidents Chavez and Maduro, the Venezuelan government has long maintained a system of price controls aimed at guaranteeing affordable consumer goods for the population.
https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13515
Last edited by Madison320; 02-26-2019 at 11:44 AM.
Bob Dole got the same treatment as trump. You literally tried to play that off as truth. tard.
It depended on how popular he got. And it still can happen. Maybe after 2020.
To be fair its hard to find somebody to prosecute Hillary knowing that most people in government are out for themselves. Not to mention Clinton can sucessfully threaten anybody who even attempts to.
Last edited by Anti Globalist; 02-26-2019 at 12:02 PM.
"Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."
Calvin Coolidge
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/11/08/u...as-dashed.html
You certainly are fond of that good old Freudian projection.
It *can* happen. But it's not something Trump has any interest at all in doing.
Just to clarify for the sake of fairness, you're saying that socialism is, in fact, a viable economic model at least in some instances? I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly.
Last edited by CCTelander; 02-26-2019 at 12:19 PM.
Chris
"Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon
"...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul
And just like every independent socialist country, Libya was sanctioned by the US and the west. Imagine how well it would have done without the sanctions?
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