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Thread: New Congresswoman: "Taxation Is Theft"

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    I think she's the same woman who told Beto Hell no you won't take my gun.
    Who the hell would listen to Beto if he told you to give him your gun?
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    That's a perverse disincentive to keep someone at the edge of the poverty level from crossing over into productive society. Let's say the poverty cutoff is $25,000 per year. So I go from zero taxes to $2,500? And there is still "meddling in your affairs" because there is still a yearly income report.
    Going from zero to $2,500 in taxes is exactly what happened in my young life when I switched from part-time to full-time work (I think the amount was pretty close, at least. That was a long time ago.)

    I still stayed working full-time. The difference is, as I began making more money, I paid more taxes. Was that an incentive to keep me earning as little as possible? You could look at it that way, but I still wanted to make more money.

    That said, I've known bozos who wouldn't work over a certain number of hours per week so they could keep receiving welfare checks. That was perverse if you ask me.

    As far as a yearly income report: That wouldn't be necessary unless you claimed exempt, and even then, it's a very minimal meddling, especially compared to excise taxes, sales taxes etc.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    Who the hell would listen to Beto if he told you to give him your gun?
    I don't know, but probably the same jackasses who were cutting their rifles in half a while back as some kind of virtue-signal.

  6. #34
    Republican and QAnon supporter Lauren Boebert wins House race in Colorado
    https://www.axios.com/lauren-boebert...d55724b0f.html
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Badnon Wissenshaftler View Post
    Going from zero to $2,500 in taxes is exactly what happened in my young life when I switched from part-time to full-time work (I think the amount was pretty close, at least. That was a long time ago.)
    Okay. But if going full time meant you doubled your salary that's different than going from zero to $2,500 for a 1 dollar per year increase. Anyway, I'm curious as to why you think it's fair for the people who benefit the most from war, the international merchants, to pay the least in taxes (no tariffs). Pretty much every war we've had has been a trade war from the Revolutionary War all the way through to today's oil wars. For more on that see "War is a racket" by General Smedley Butler.



    Personally I think all government should be funded by GovFundMe, the government equivalent of GoFundMe. If someone wants to pay for the military in general or fund a particular war, let him. If someone wants to fund feeding hungry children, let him. Vote by spending your dollars.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by familydog View Post
    Not our Founders. Unless one is an ancap, there is a role for tariffs.
    An argument can be made that some types of theft are less awful than others. And even a minimalist government wants to funds itself somehow. That does not make it not theft though.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    As I see it, Sally (in country A) is conducting business peacefully and voluntarily with Jose (in country B). A 3rd party demands a portion of the sale or else they will lnflict violence and suffering on one of the parties.

    This sounds to me like extortion, aka robbery, aka theft.

    This sounds like what organized crime does, aka the mafia.

    It also sounds like what government does.

    Hmm, does that make government simply the largest mafia in a given geographical area?

    But wait! The government provides security, protection, services....

    So does the mafia... until you cross them.

    hmm...
    Ah. The "trade between individuals" myth. If Sally really wants to make a person to person trade to Jose, she can do it under the current tariff regime without paying tariffs. If Jose lives in Mexico she can drive across the border, buy whatever Jose is selling, and drive back. It's the "cartel to cartel" trade where tariff's come into play. You see most of the time Sally doesn't give a rip about buying for Jose or Li Quan or whoever. Sally goes to Walmart (an import / export cartel) who buys a bunch of crap from the Alibaba cartel and puts it nice and neat on the shelf. Sally might prefer to buy from Bob down the street, but Bob's been put out of business now. It's hard for Bob to compete with the near slave labor conditions/wages available in other countries. And to make matters worse, Bob has to pay taxes which helps fund the U.S. Navy which helps keep trade flowing from one cartel to the other. So Bob helps fund his own demise because that's "freedom." Bob might be able to compete with the cartels if Jose and Li Quan were able to come where Bob is and work for more than the near slave labor conditions/wages they get in their home country, but we can't have that because people think Jose and Li Quan are going to all vote democrat.

    So no. Tariffs are not the evil you've been led to believe they are. I've actually bought from Alibaba (I bought a shipment of 50 N95 type masks early in the pandemic when you couldn't get masks). Tariffs never came up in the equation, though I assume the manufacturer handled all of that. Even with whatever tariff might have been on them, plus the shipping costs, plus the fact that prices were rising simply due to supply and demand, the cost was still dirt cheap. So cheap that tariffs are basically negligible. The idea that we should fund our government through taxes on our own people instead of taxes on outsiders who want to sell us stuff is the most ridiculous nonsense anyone ever conceived. Tariffs are a better idea than an income tax, VAT, capitation tax (sorry @Badnon Wissenshaftler ) or any other tax anybody might come up with. Raising tariffs is one of the few things Orange Man did that I actually agree with. And that's true even if they made the N95 masks I imported slightly more expensive.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    An argument can be made that some types of theft are less awful than others. And even a minimalist government wants to funds itself somehow. That does not make it not theft though.
    Nobody puts a gun to your head and tells you that you must buy from an import / export cartel. You can buy local or you can travel yourself and buy tariff free.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  11. #39
    I reject your discussion of cartels vs individuals.

    All groups are composed of individuals. And typically are led by individuals.

    Further, the very existence of said tariffs, as well as government border controls of all types, dis-incentivizes individuals to trade, and creates barriers to entry such that larger organizations have an advantage. Hence leading to "cartels" you dislike.

    Further some individuals DO run small import/export operations.

    Regardless, the principle applies. Taxation is theft. Tariffs are a tax.

    You can dress it up and justify however you like, but tariffs remain a theft. Just one of thousands that governments inflict on citizens.

    I am surprised this is the least bit controversial on ronpaulforums.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    I reject your discussion of cartels vs individuals.
    You're free to reject that the earth is round too.

    All groups are composed of individuals. And typically are led by individuals.
    Cartels are typically led by groups of individuals. Still corporations fought for the right to be treated as a collective. But I'm all for doing away with corporate personhood.

    Further, the very existence of said tariffs, as well as government border controls of all types, dis-incentivizes individuals to trade, and creates barriers to entry such that larger organizations have an advantage. Hence leading to "cartels" you dislike.
    I reject ^that as absolutely false. If you don't want to pay a tariff, then don't. I already explained to you how to trade across borders without paying tariffs. The biggest barrier to tariff free cross border trade is "border security" and not the tariffs themselves. I'm curious. Are you for open borders? Anyway you can avoid tariffs the way people doing yard sales avoid sales tax. Technically a city or state could charge a sales tax for someone doing a yard sale. It's just impractical to do that because the returns on small sales tax enforcement would just be too small. The same goes for tariffs.

    Further some individuals DO run small import/export operations.
    If they want to be small they can avoid tariffs if they want to. But even if they want to be big, the price of the tariff is so small that it is not prohibitive. They are still free to participate in the economic destruction of their neighbors who try to make a living from domestically produced goods as much as they please.

    Regardless, the principle applies. Taxation is theft. Tariffs are a tax.
    And you are free to have your opinion on this issue. Do you consider user fees a tax? If the government builds the port of entry and charges anyone who brings things in a fee is it still a tax? What about when there is a need to quarantine to prevent invasive species? Is it still a tax?

    You can dress it up and justify however you like, but tariffs remain a theft. Just one of thousands that governments inflict on citizens.
    Sorry / not sorry to bust your bumper sticker.

    I am surprised this is the least bit controversial on ronpaulforums.
    What isn't controversial on a forum dedicated to free thinking?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Nobody puts a gun to your head and tells you that you must buy from an import / export cartel. You can buy local or you can travel yourself and buy tariff free.
    Wait, is your argument that, in the modern world, if I want to buy a good tariff-free from someone selling it who lives on the other side of an ocean I could just travel across an ocean, buy it from them, then travel back across said ocean?

    I probably missed something...

  15. #42
    All taxation is theft.

    In some circumstances use fees are voluntary, and thus not tax. Though this is a gray area. If the government has a monopoly on said service and enforces the monopoly by law, then it seems correct to call the use fee a tax, because the customer has no other alternative -- by design.

    Permits and licenses are also taxes, and thus theft.

    Any coerced action is a theft of a person's time and life energy, and thus theft.

    Voluntary actions are good. and uplift humanity.
    Coerced actions (aggression) are bad. and drag humanity down.

    simple.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. But if going full time meant you doubled your salary that's different than going from zero to $2,500 for a 1 dollar per year increase. Anyway, I'm curious as to why you think it's fair for the people who benefit the most from war, the international merchants, to pay the least in taxes (no tariffs). Pretty much every war we've had has been a trade war from the Revolutionary War all the way through to today's oil wars. For more on that see "War is a racket" by General Smedley Butler.
    Haha, that was a very dramatic and entertaining performance by "General Butler". As far as war being a racket as he defined it, I agree.

    Why no tariffs? Because I take the Ron Paul approach on free trade. Here is a decent take on that, from Antiwar.com and the Doc. Starting the video from 5 min on is a decent truncation.

    https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2016/01...s-war-follows/

    The heart of what I think about tariffs, with regards to war, is summarized by a sentence in that link:

    "Protectionism [read "tariffs"] leads to trade wars which very often lead to hot wars."

    Tariffs aren't ultimately a tax on international merchants, they are a tax on the consumers of the tariffed item. They are a tax on us.

    Also, international merchants aren't guaranteed any profits from war, in fact, for most, war is as damaging to them as it is most people. War profiteers profit from war. Like Gen. Butler said there, it's gain for the few at the expense of the many.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Personally I think all government should be funded by GovFundMe, the government equivalent of GoFundMe. If someone wants to pay for the military in general or fund a particular war, let him. If someone wants to fund feeding hungry children, let him. Vote by spending your dollars.
    Well, in principle, I agree! The problem being, you speak of a completely voluntarist society, which is wonderful, but I'm speaking of a government something like what the Founders had in mind. GovFundMe would cease to be about government at all.

    Ultimately, I'm talking about a vast reduction in taxes and gov't revenue altogether, so that yes, we keep far more of what we earn and use it to fund what we want funded. It wouldn't leave room for endless wars and socialist programs. I'm talking about vastly simplifying taxation, if it must exist, and making revenue collection much more transparent.

    As far as suddenly having to pay $2500 in taxes. Look, it could be stratified to lesson the impact, say you pay $500 at $20k, $1,000 at $22.5k and so on until you're at $2500. Frankly, I somewhat like the shock effect. Maybe if everyone experienced the pain of the year or so, in which all of their raises went to the feds, then good. Let the anger flow through you, and remember that when you run across governmental squandering and waste!

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Wait, is your argument that, in the modern world, if I want to buy a good tariff-free from someone selling it who lives on the other side of an ocean I could just travel across an ocean, buy it from them, then travel back across said ocean?

    I probably missed something...
    It would be interesting to find out what % of product was lost back in the days of pirates, and compare that to the % of product lost through tariffs the day after pirates were no longer a legitimate threat to ocean commerce. Then compare that to today.

    I would also be curious about what would typically happen to crews who were robbed by pirates. Did they all have to walk the plank?

    How can ocean travel be made safe for merchants short of making them all war ships? Or should we make them like war ships? If we can privatize roads, can we privatize protected ocean lanes? What if somebody doesn't want to use to the lane, but just wants to cross? Do they have to pay something?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by danda View Post
    An argument can be made that some types of theft are less awful than others. And even a minimalist government wants to funds itself somehow. That does not make it not theft though.
    As an ancap at heart, I do see all taxation as theft. However, practically speaking there are some taxes worse than others. Revenue raising tariffs (as opposed to targeted tariffs) are probably one of the least offensive.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The idea that we should fund our government through taxes on our own people instead of taxes on outsiders who want to sell us stuff is the most ridiculous nonsense anyone ever conceived. Tariffs are a better idea than an income tax, VAT, capitation tax (sorry @Badnon Wissenshaftler ) or any other tax anybody might come up with. Raising tariffs is one of the few things Orange Man did that I actually agree with. And that's true even if they made the N95 masks I imported slightly more expensive.

    Tariffs are a consumption tax on US citizens. Only at Trump University are tariffs thought to be paid by outsiders.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Well, if one believes we need some sort of tax to fund the federal government, I'd say make it tariffs.
    Aren't those the only constitutional taxes, excise and tariffs?

  21. #48
    Amash is done right?

    That sucks.

    I think she would have signed onto team Rand, Massie and Amash.

    Although I bet you she'll fail the foreign empire test.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Tariffs are a consumption tax on US citizens. Only at Trump University are tariffs thought to be paid by outsiders.
    Only the U.S. citizens who choose to consume slave labor goods from overseas. And they only have to pay it if they buy through the cartel. You want to go to Mexico and buy something and come back, no tariff. If you are for open borders then you have a right to complain about a tariff. If you are for closed borders then tariffs are the user fee for the tyranny you want.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Wait, is your argument that, in the modern world, if I want to buy a good tariff-free from someone selling it who lives on the other side of an ocean I could just travel across an ocean, buy it from them, then travel back across said ocean?

    I probably missed something...
    Is Mexico on the other side of the ocean? Is Canada? For your "free trade across the ocean" the rest of us pay for the U.S. Navy. Now I would complain about disbanding the Navy in place of a really good coast guard. Maybe a sub fleet. But none of this "protect the shipping lanes" nonsense. If you want all that done then you, not me, should have to pay for it.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Only the U.S. citizens who choose to consume slave labor goods from overseas. And they only have to pay it if they buy through the cartel. You want to go to Mexico and buy something and come back, no tariff. If you are for open borders then you have a right to complain about a tariff. If you are for closed borders then tariffs are the user fee for the tyranny you want.
    Broad tariffs (not punitive ones) also help keep jobs and money at home. Win/Win. Consumers might have to pay a little more, but they will have more money, especially with the elimination of the onerous income tax and all the waste that produces (CPAs, bureaucrats, etc.) Plus, more privacy in financial affairs for Americans. Grow the internal economy and maybe be a net exporter again.
    Last edited by Danke; 12-01-2020 at 08:15 AM.
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    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Badnon Wissenshaftler View Post
    Haha, that was a very dramatic and entertaining performance by "General Butler". As far as war being a racket as he defined it, I agree.

    Why no tariffs? Because I take the Ron Paul approach on free trade. Here is a decent take on that, from Antiwar.com and the Doc. Starting the video from 5 min on is a decent truncation.

    https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2016/01...s-war-follows/

    The heart of what I think about tariffs, with regards to war, is summarized by a sentence in that link:

    "Protectionism [read "tariffs"] leads to trade wars which very often lead to hot wars."

    Tariffs aren't ultimately a tax on international merchants, they are a tax on the consumers of the tariffed item. They are a tax on us.
    Let me get this straight. You quote Ron Paul for the idea of tariffs being bad but you support a tax for just being alive and making over the poverty level? That...that's your argument? A capitation tax is still an income tax. Ron Paul on user fees and tariffs versus the income tax.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6bAVJ6ZdnI

    Also, international merchants aren't guaranteed any profits from war, in fact, for most, war is as damaging to them as it is most people. War profiteers profit from war. Like Gen. Butler said there, it's gain for the few at the expense of the many.
    That doesn't stop international merchants from pushing for war. It's not just the short term gains that some definitely make. It's the long term gains. The banana wars profited Dole long after the war was over.


    Well, in principle, I agree! The problem being, you speak of a completely voluntarist society, which is wonderful, but I'm speaking of a government something like what the Founders had in mind. GovFundMe would cease to be about government at all.
    The founders would have never gone for your capitation scheme. The did agree with tariffs. But also GovFundMe couldn't exist in 1776 because there was no internet.

    Ultimately, I'm talking about a vast reduction in taxes and gov't revenue altogether, so that yes, we keep far more of what we earn and use it to fund what we want funded. It wouldn't leave room for endless wars and socialist programs. I'm talking about vastly simplifying taxation, if it must exist, and making revenue collection much more transparent.

    As far as suddenly having to pay $2500 in taxes. Look, it could be stratified to lesson the impact, say you pay $500 at $20k, $1,000 at $22.5k and so on until you're at $2500. Frankly, I somewhat like the shock effect. Maybe if everyone experienced the pain of the year or so, in which all of their raises went to the feds, then good. Let the anger flow through you, and remember that when you run across governmental squandering and waste!
    The only acceptable income tax is zero. I agree with Ron Paul. User fees and tariffs can take care of the level of spending that's required for the type of government you say you want. A capitation tax would be tyranny.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Is Mexico on the other side of the ocean? Is Canada? For your "free trade across the ocean" the rest of us pay for the U.S. Navy. Now I would complain about disbanding the Navy in place of a really good coast guard. Maybe a sub fleet. But none of this "protect the shipping lanes" nonsense. If you want all that done then you, not me, should have to pay for it.
    I think we're talking past each other or something. I don't believe you owe me any debt if I want to trade with someone across the ocean.

    I may have jumped into the thread at the wrong time or something.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Only the U.S. citizens who choose to consume slave labor goods from overseas. And they only have to pay it if they buy through the cartel. You want to go to Mexico and buy something and come back, no tariff. If you are for open borders then you have a right to complain about a tariff. If you are for closed borders then tariffs are the user fee for the tyranny you want.

    I am not aware of any country that produces goods that has slave labor as a major source of production. I am basically for unrestricted immigration but I don't see how it makes tariffs okay.

    I don't understand why I have to go to Mexico myself to avoid a tariff. And what cartels are you talking about? You mean stores? If I want to go to Wal-Mart, I don't go to Bentonville, Arkansas. Flying to Mexico to buy avocados doesn't make sense. It would be very inefficient. And I already pay a markup. The store makes money for providing the service of having what I want in stock.

    If you want to argue for tariffs as a way to revenue, a national sales tax or VAT are more efficient, but it is a not ridiculous argument. But if your argument is something about American jobs or low wages in Bangladesh, I have no sympathy for that kind of economic illiteracy. There is no case to be made for that. Zero serious economists from across the political spectrum support protectionist tariffs.

    It is literally the most agreed on issue among economists (tied with rent control).
    Here is the list, together with the percentage of economists who agree:

    1. Tariffs and import quotas usually reduce general economic welfare. (93%) http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/...sts-agree.html

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    1. Tariffs and import quotas usually reduce general economic welfare. (93%) http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/...sts-agree.html
    Hey nice list. That's a good find.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Broad tariffs (not punitive ones) also help keep jobs and money at home. Win/Win. Consumers might have to pay a little more, but they will have more money, especially with the elimination of the onerous income tax and all the waste that produces (CPAs, bureaucrats, etc.) Plus, more privacy in financial affairs for Americans. Grow the internal economy and maybe be a net exporter again.
    Bingo! For the life of me I don't get why some people would support an even more onerous income tax over broad tariffs. Let's tax the hell out of the U.S. economy to avoid taxing the foreigners? And sorry that "It hurts consumers" argument is nonsense. The idea of the "consumer economy" is nonsense. At some point if you aren't producing as a nation you are going under.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I am not aware of any country that produces goods that has slave labor as a major source of production.
    http://www.endslaverynow.org/act/act...labor-in-china

    And even Apple products are implicated in slave labor.

    https://venturebeat.com/2020/03/02/a...-forced-labor/

    I am basically for unrestricted immigration but I don't see how it makes tariffs okay.
    Ummmm....I said the opposite but you must have misunderstood me. If you are against tariffs then you should be against closed borders.

    I don't understand why I have to go to Mexico myself to avoid a tariff.
    You don't. You could simply buy something from some individual living in Mexico who just sent you the item through the mail. Or you could buy from someone who traveled back an forth to Mexico. My point is that the straw man argument that tariffs prevent individuals from trading with other individuals is a simply a fallacy. Understand now?

    And what cartels are you talking about? You mean stores? If I want to go to Wal-Mart, I don't go to Bentonville, Arkansas. Flying to Mexico to buy avocados doesn't make sense. It would be very inefficient. And I already pay a markup. The store makes money for providing the service of having what I want in stock.
    Having a system where Mexicans can't come across the border to pick avocados grown in America cause...reasons...forcing American avocado growers to move to Mexico is what doesn't make sense. But again, you aren't arguing for closed borders so you aren't really arguing against my position.

    If you want to argue for tariffs as a way to revenue, a national sales tax or VAT are more efficient, but it is a not ridiculous argument. But if your argument is something about American jobs or low wages in Bangladesh, I have no sympathy for that kind of economic illiteracy. There is no case to be made for that. Zero serious economists from across the political spectrum support protectionist tariffs.

    It is literally the most agreed on issue among economists (tied with rent control).
    Here is the list, together with the percentage of economists who agree:

    1. Tariffs and import quotas usually reduce general economic welfare. (93%) http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/...sts-agree.html
    Again, you aren't arguing for closed borders. Now, take your list and place it against places that have zero income tax and free travel (as opposed to free trade). If you want to make a comparison, make one about what I am actually talking about.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    I think we're talking past each other or something. I don't believe you owe me any debt if I want to trade with someone across the ocean.

    I may have jumped into the thread at the wrong time or something.
    You probably did jump in at the wrong time. I was initially arguing against the idea that a regressive income tax is somehow better than a tariff for...reasons. That said, there is a hidden cost to your ability to trade with someone across the ocean. That's the cost of the U.S. Navy. If the U.S. Navy quit protecting shipping lanes, either other countries would step up (and charge THEIR citizens the cost which would raise the cost of whatever it is you want to import), or merchant ships would have to arm themselves which would also raise the cost. And...it would probably become cheaper. Remember that Tom Hanks movie about the captain that hijacked by Somali pirates because all he had was a flare gun? I wonder how much his rescue by Navy SEALS cost? One merchant machine armed with a 50 cal and with the proper training could have avoided the whole thing.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Having a system where Mexicans can't come across the border to pick avocados grown in America cause...reasons...forcing American avocado growers to move to Mexico is what doesn't make sense. But again, you aren't arguing for closed borders so you aren't really arguing against my position.
    Not to detract from your overall point, but for clarity on the avocado markets, avacado distributers in the US buy from different regions during different times of the season. South America, Central America, Mexico and the US all have different prime seasons for avocados, so where distributors buy their avocados depends heavily on what season it is.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    You probably did jump in at the wrong time. I was initially arguing against the idea that a regressive income tax is somehow better than a tariff for...reasons. That said, there is a hidden cost to your ability to trade with someone across the ocean. That's the cost of the U.S. Navy. If the U.S. Navy quit protecting shipping lanes, either other countries would step up (and charge THEIR citizens the cost which would raise the cost of whatever it is you want to import), or merchant ships would have to arm themselves which would also raise the cost. And...it would probably become cheaper. Remember that Tom Hanks movie about the captain that hijacked by Somali pirates because all he had was a flare gun? I wonder how much his rescue by Navy SEALS cost? One merchant machine armed with a 50 cal and with the proper training could have avoided the whole thing.
    Yep, we're in agreement.

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