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Thread: Gun Owners of America Not Supporting Gun Rights for Legal Resident Aliens

  1. #1

    Gun Owners of America Not Supporting Gun Rights for Legal Resident Aliens

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/06...uth_Dakota_Law

    The ACLU has filed a lawsuit on behalf of a non-U.S. citizen that alleges South Dakota’s concealed weapons law is discriminatory – a legal move that one gun-rights group warns will open the door to arming illegal immigrants.

    The lawsuit was filed this week on behalf of British national Wayne Smith, who legally immigrated 30 years ago, and for years was able to get a concealed license. In 2002, however, South Dakota amended the law, making U.S. citizenship a requirement to carry a concealed weapon. When Smith went to renew his long-held permit last July, he was denied because he is permanent legal resident, not a citizen.

    ...

    "Legal resident aliens—that is, non-citizens who legally live in the United States—have constitutional rights. No one, for example, would say that a state could prohibit a legal resident alien from freely practicing his religion or engaging in free speech," Francisco told FoxNews.com. "Thus, if Mr. Smith does not have a criminal background or hasn't done anything else that disqualifies him from getting a permit, it's not clear to me how a state could prohibit him from getting a permit when it allows an otherwise similarly-situated citizen to get one."

    ...

    "If you're a law abiding citizen and you're allowed to buy a gun you should be allowed to carry it to defend yourself," NRA spokesman Andrew Arulananda told FoxNews.com. "Just because you're not a us citizen doesn't mean that you're somehow to immune to crime outside your home."

    But Gun Owners of America Executive Director Larry Pratt says the state has every right to restrict conceal and carry permits to citizens.
    Last edited by axiomata; 01-08-2011 at 12:18 PM.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬



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  3. #2
    A million injustices every year against gun owners.

    The ACLU picks this one to fight in court.

    *sigh*


  4. #3
    It is only a wedge if someone from our side in on the wrong side of the wedge. Otherwise it is just a triangular piece of steel.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  5. #4
    If you're a law abiding citizen and you're allowed to buy a gun you should be allowed to carry it to defend yourself," NRA spokesman Andrew Arulananda told FoxNews.com. "Just because you're not a us citizen doesn't mean that you're somehow to immune to crime outside your home."
    Thats the thing Andrew, they aren't a "law abiding citizen", they are a "law abiding resident".

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Thats the thing Andrew, they aren't a "law abiding citizen", they are a "law abiding resident".
    Read it again. He's talking about two different people there. (It is not perfectly clear, I agree ... blame FoxNews' reporter)

    First he's defending the existing right to conceal carry (for SD US Citizens). It, afterall, is a natural right, endowed by our Creator and protected by our government. It is not a privilege that the government grants us. But this right must necessarily also be naturally endowed to "All Men", including law-abiding resident aliens. Would you seek to prevent such a person from freely practicing his own religion, how about a trial by jury?

    Here's Madison:

    Again, it is said, that aliens not being parties to the Constitution, the rights and privileges which it secures cannot be at all claimed by them.

    To this reasoning, also, it might be answered, that although aliens are not parties to the Constitution, it does not follow that the Constitution has vested in Congress an absolute power over them. The parties to the Constitution may have granted, or retained, or modified the power over aliens, without regard to that particular consideration.

    But a more direct reply is, that it does not follow, because aliens are not parties to the Constitution, as citizens are parties to it, that whilst they actually conform to it, they have no right to its protection. Aliens are not more parties to the laws, than they are parties to the Constitution; yet, it will not be disputed, that as they owe, on one hand, a temporary obedience, they are entitled in return to their protection and advantage.

    If aliens had no rights under the Constitution, they might not only be banished, but even capitally punished, without a jury or the other incidents to a fair trial. But so far has a contrary principle been carried, in every part of the United States, that except on charges of treason, an alien has, besides all the common privileges, the special one of being tried by a jury, of which one-half may be also aliens.
    Last edited by axiomata; 01-08-2011 at 12:45 PM.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    It is only a wedge if someone from our side in on the wrong side of the wedge. Otherwise it is just a triangular piece of steel.
    And just who determines that, hey?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    And just who determines that, hey?
    Feel free to make Pratt's case if you wish.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  9. #8
    I would infer from Pratt's position on this that he opposes the idea of allowing concealed carry without any permit at all, which doesn't seem like him. Looks like he hasn't thought this through enough.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    But this right must necessarily also be naturally endowed to "All Men", including law-abiding resident aliens. Would you seek to prevent such a person from freely practicing his own religion, how about a trial by jury?
    Sure, why not? they don't have a right to be in the US. We put other restrictions on resident aliens. I'd much rather the states be deciding this stuff than the feds.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    Feel free to make Pratt's case if you wish.
    You just proved my point.

    How do you know I support Pratt's position?

  13. #11

    Incorporation

    Incorporation (Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution.) from the civil war means that the Bill of Rights also applies to the states meaning that if the federal government can't restrict arms then neither can the states.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorpo...Bill_of_Rights

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    You just proved my point.

    How do you know I support Pratt's position?
    I am not sure that I know what his position is. The quote is about the purpose of this lawsuit and not about gun rights in general.
    If the guy wants to enjoy the full benefit of residing in the United States become a citizen. He’s been here for 30 years what’s he waiting for?," Pratt told FoxNews.com.

    Pratt says the only reason the ACLU brought the suit is to pave the way for illegal aliens to have conceal carry permits.

    "They want to make it so illegal aliens have the same rights as everybody else...every little bit chipping away," he said.
    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/06...#ixzz1ATLtqOu1

    I think my position has been clear all along. I oppose all gun laws federal and state, and believe that virtually all state laws are the result of Federal mandates.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  15. #13
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    for years was able to get a concealed license
    If it is a license it is not a recognized natural right by the state.

    So the only question is can a state bar privileges for certain individuals based on citizenship.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    If it is a license it is not a recognized natural right by the state.

    So the only question is can a state bar privileges for certain individuals based on citizenship.
    Only if you consider self defense to be a privilege.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    If it is a license it is not a recognized natural right by the state.
    Natural rights are only natural rights if they don't need any state to recognize them for them to be rights. States that don't recognize them are in the wrong.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I would infer from Pratt's position on this that he opposes the idea of allowing concealed carry without any permit at all, which doesn't seem like him. Looks like he hasn't thought this through enough.
    This.

    If you're asking government for permission to do something, then it is a privilege, not a right.
    Last edited by agitator; 01-08-2011 at 02:35 PM.



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  20. #17
    Wow that the ACLU is taking up a gun issue and is apparently on the right side.

    Wow that South Dakota is such a $#@! hole.

    Wow that GOA are turning out to be such cretinous imbeciles.

    Plenty of wow to go around here.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Thats the thing Andrew, they aren't a "law abiding citizen", they are a "law abiding resident".

    WTF? Are you serious? If you subscribe to the notion of inalienable rights and that RKBA is inalienable, there is then NO justification for denying ANYONE their RKBA.

    Free nations deal with what has happened, not what might. When Paco Taco robs grandma for her SSI check and kills her, you grab his natty hide, try him, convict him, jail him, and toss the key down a rathole. You do not punish those who have committed no offense.

    HELLO.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    WTF? Are you serious? If you subscribe to the notion of inalienable rights and that RKBA is inalienable, there is then NO justification for denying ANYONE their RKBA.

    Free nations deal with what has happened, not what might. When Paco Taco robs grandma for her SSI check and kills her, you grab his natty hide, try him, convict him, jail him, and toss the key down a rathole. You do not punish those who have committed no offense.

    HELLO.
    If he doesn't like it he can go back to his country of origin. I bet their gun laws are even stricter.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Sure, why not? they don't have a right to be in the US. We put other restrictions on resident aliens. I'd much rather the states be deciding this stuff than the feds.
    A legal resident alien has no right to be in the US? What in hell are you smoking?
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    A legal resident alien has no right to be in the US? What in hell are you smoking?
    No, they have permission, not a "right".

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    If he doesn't like it he can go back to his country of origin. I bet their gun laws are even stricter.
    Yeah, this is rational thinking.

    Jesus.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Yeah, this is rational thinking.
    Jesus.
    Are you suggesting he can't go home?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    No, they have permission, not a "right".
    They have no natural human rights? Is that your argument?

    Jesus^2
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    WTF? Are you serious? If you subscribe to the notion of inalienable rights and that RKBA is inalienable, there is then NO justification for denying ANYONE their RKBA.
    Call me what you want, but I can't agree with that; in my humble opinion, there are a few people that should not have access to weapons. I'm sure that the vast majority of society agrees with me, and I fear that this kind of rhetoric can be counterproductive to those of us who fight for gun rights.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Are you suggesting he can't go home?
    Why should be have to? Perhaps the USA is now his home - ever consider that?

    It seems you harbor some serious us/them sentiments. You might want to talk to someone about that. Do as you wish, of course.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    They have no natural human rights? Is that your argument?
    Jesus^2
    Your position is that foreign nationals have a "right" to be in the US? I disagree with that statement.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Why should be have to? Perhaps the USA is now his home - ever consider that?
    It seems you harbor some serious us/them sentiments. You might want to talk to someone about that. Do as you wish, of course.
    Yeah, move to another country, then complain cuz you can't get your way. That makes sense.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by BamaAla View Post
    Call me what you want, but I can't agree with that; in my humble opinion, there are a few people that should not have access to weapons. I'm sure that the vast majority of society agrees with me, and I fear that this kind of rhetoric can be counterproductive to those of us who fight for gun rights.
    Please enlighten us with the standard by which some people are denied RKBA. Regale us with the list of people who are to apply that standard and by what authority they objectively deny the basic rights of their fellows.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Please enlighten us with the standard by which some people are denied RKBA. Regale us with the list of people who are to apply that standard and by what authority they objectively deny the basic rights of their fellows.
    Violent criminals, mentally handicapped, and others should not have weapons. The only people that deny that are an extremely small group of people like yourself that ultimately paint all of us fighting for gun rights as looney tunes. Much like the in your face open carry advocates, all you do is set our cause back.

    You can type about "basic rights" and other high strung philosophies all you want, but those of us that live in the real world are forced to seek real world solutions.

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