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Thread: Start our own country?

  1. #1

    Cool Start our own country?

    Why don't all us members of RPF pitch in and buy our own island and move there.

    I'm sick of this country.
    The most important element of a free society, where individual rights are held in the highest esteem, is the rejection of the initiation of violence.

    RON PAUL









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  3. #2
    Since the Playboy mansion is off the market...

    After year on market, still no buyer for Hell, Michigan

    The price of Hell, Michigan dropped this week to $900,000 — a devilish descent of $99,666.

    John Colone, Hell’s unofficial mayor, revealed the price drop in a conversation with the Livingston Daily.

    “It’s open to any offers,” Colone said from Screams Souvenirs, one of several businesses he owns in Hell. “We’re willing to work with anyone.”

    Hell is a Putnam Township hamlet located some 15 miles south of Howell.

    The new price comes about a year after an effort to sell Hell to a Detroit-based arts group fell through.

    ...
    http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...igan/81634638/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  4. #3

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by younglibertarian View Post
    Why don't all us members of RPF pitch in and buy our own island and move there.

    I'm sick of this country.
    Good Sir, I am very much in favor of your proposal. I am not yet sick of my country but I do feel a certain unease in my stomach when I'm thinking about the direction it is heading in. My country, as I grew up, was one where we respected each other no matter what kind of lifestyle we had. It was a country where we may have had high taxes but we were left alone by the government in our personal lives.

    I will point out that having a small community, is a good thing, as far as our values are concerned. When you know a lot or most of the people in your community it is much easier to tolerate their personal beliefs, because you have a certain connection with them, it is in both your interest to laugh about it and bury the hatchet if there is a conflict.

    Now I am personally someone who has the greatest respect for property rights but I will admit to using my neighbors driveway to cut my hedges, so he doesn't have to do it.. I clean up afterwards and he's never complained about it.. That to me is how a society should operate. Property rights are holy in essence but societal convenience sometimes prevails.

    Anyways. You guys know my skills. I can build stuff but it takes a while before it's finished but it will look good, I can cook food (I'm pretty fast and efficient with that) and I can be a general pain in the ass and village idiot. Every town needs one.

    Vote for me for mayor. I'll leave you alone, I've got other stuff to do.
    "I am a bird"

  6. #5
    Nope. Not me. Ya'll go ahead. Given the way people argue around here, I'd end up choking half of yuns. Well...the anarchists anyway. They're largely just socialists blending in with libertarians. And you know how socialists always want to organize their little gang from within the camp and take yer stuff at gunpoint in order to prop up their little system. First they organize their little fire companies...then their security forces...then they monopolize everything...then they start ranking themselves...then you're right back where you were in the first place.

    Too much drama with "libertarians". Always trying to form a posse and telling everyone what to do and how to do it and whatnot. Plus, I need my quiet time.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-10-2016 at 12:47 PM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Nope. Not me. Ya'll go ahead. Given the way people argue around here, I'd end up choking half of yuns. Well...the anarchists anyway.
    Yes, I also have zero interest in living in a country, that doesn't have roads.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Nope. Not me. Ya'll go ahead. Given the way people argue around here, I'd end up choking half of yuns. Well...the anarchists anyway.

    Too much drama with libertarians. Always trying to form a posse and telling everyone what to do and how to do it and whatnot. Plus, I need my quiet time.
    Come live in a country with me, you have similar concerns. I am however not trying to form a posse. I am just interested in living with people who have different interests, different backgrounds but similar morals. Nobody should be required to be friends with anyone but I do believe we could have a society where people would naturally respect each other.

    Now, personally, I've seen, in real life, some actual anarchist communities. People living on some land nobody is using, like old industrial areas nobody is using, the government mostly leaves them alone. These are lefty anarchists, not our kind, you'd probably end up chocking them (your words). However, even they, are somehow able to have some kind of 'government' that leaves them alone for the most part but deals with the essential stuff. I am sure we would do a lot better by not actually having a government that can tax, spend and regulate but just talking together in some kind of parliamentarian way and crowd-funding essential projects.

    I am of course joking a little bit because it is quite far-fetched for us to start a new country. I do however think it could seriously prove to the world that libertarianism is the future and we could show that it actually works.

    Now for me the biggest problem would be the availability of land*. If we were to (somehow) buy an island somewhere, it has to be big enough to house a couple thousand people at the very least. Assuming that a lot of the population would like to have some kind of agriculture going on... It would have to be a pretty substantial island.

    As far as climate goes, I have no requirements. I can deal with any climate but I prefer a colder one.

    *I am Dutch so technically I should have land making qualities in my genes. And well, we are libertarians, we will shape our own world so I guess the land problem won't be an issue after all. We just need lots of guns to protect it I fear.
    Last edited by luctor-et-emergo; 06-10-2016 at 12:48 PM.
    "I am a bird"

  9. #8
    One problem I can see is tourism... Being a free place and all, you are likely to invite all the wrong tourists. I mean, if drugs are legal, you don't want to get lots of drug tourism (sorry dannno). Not just because drugged up people are generally either apathetic, which I guess is fine as long as they spend money, but also rather obnoxious to say the least. But that's not the problem, the problem is that with that kind of tourism it would be only weeks until some kind of international army would barge into our little piece of freedom to $#@! it up.

    Tourism however, is a money maker. We would need an economy, and either we have resources or we have some kind of industry. A tiny nation can't be entirely self sufficient. We have to export stuff or have tourists bringing us money.

    As a final point on this, apart from the EU, everywhere in the world countries are actually more likely to split up than to join together. I may have said in my previous post that this idea was far-fetched, in 20 years, it may not be.

    I must say, if the chance of starting a country would arise, I would dive into it with all my abilities and confidence. Life is pretty $#@!ing temporary and you might as well try something you believe in or else it's just pretense.
    "I am a bird"



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  11. #9
    How about a mobile country? Like one of the huge passenger ocean liners.

    OR

    A floating city something like R. Buckminster Fuller envisioned?

    https://www.google.com/search?q=floa...43.HaugCNnWYdc


    What was Fuller's ``floating city?''
    Around 1967, Bucky Fuller was put in charge of the Triton project for the Dept. of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) (You know, one of the current gov't departments under investigation for all sorts of scandals! ;^) )

    Triton was a concept for an anchored floating city that would be located just offshore and connected with bridges and such to the mainland. It was a collection of tetrahedronal structures with apartments and such. The model looked very interesting!

    You can see some photos of the model in ``The Artifacts of Buckminster Fuller,'' along with technical drawings of just about everything else he ever designed! -Pat Salsbury
    [Typed in by Charles Nicoll] Reprinted from Critical Path, (1981, St Martin's Press) by Buckminster Fuller, p. 332.

    ``In the early 1960s I was commissioned by a Japanese patron to design one of my tetrahedronal floating cities for Tokyo Bay.

    ``Three-quarters of our planet Earth is covered with water, most of which may float organic cities.

    ``Floating cities pay no rent to landlords. They are situated on the water, which they desalinate and recirculate in many useful and nonpolluting ways. They are ships with all an ocean ship's technical autonomy, but they are also ships that will always be anchored. They don't have to go anywhere. Their shape and its human-life accommodations are not compromised, as must be the shape of the living quarters of ships whose hull shapes are constructed so that they may slip, fishlike, at high speed through the water and high seas with maximum economy.

    ``Floating cities are designed with the most buoyantly stable conformation of deep-sea bell-buoys. Their omni-surface-terraced, slop-faced, tetrahedronal structuring is employed to avoid the lethal threat of precipitous falls by humans from vertically sheer high-rising buildings.

    ``The tetrahedron has the most surface with the least volume of all polyhedra. As such, it provides the most possible 'outside' living. Its sloping external surface is adequate for all its occupants to enjoy their own private, outside, tiered-terracing, garden homes. These are most economically serviced from the common, omni-nearest-possible center of volume of all polyhedra.
    ``All the mechanical organics of a floating city are situated low in its hull for maximum stability.

    All the shopping centers and other communal service facilities are inside the structure; tennis courts and other athletic facilities are on the top deck. When suitable, the floating cities are equipped with 'alongside' or interiorly lagooned marinas for the safe mooring of the sail- and powerboats of the floating-city occupants. When moored in protected waters, the floating cities may be connected to the land by bridgeways.

    ``In 1966 my Japanese patron died, and the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development commissioned me to carry out full design and economic analysis of the floating tetrahedronal city for potential U.S.A use. With my associates I completed the design and study as well as a scaled-down model. The studies showed that the fabricating and operating costs were such that a floating city could sustain a high standard of living, yet be economically occupiable at a rental so low as to be just above that rated as the 'poverty' level by HUD authorities. The secretary of HUD sent the drawings, engineering studies, and economic analysis to the Secretary of the Navy, who ordered the Navy's Bureau of Ships to analyze the project for its 'water-worthiness,' stability, and organic capability. The Bureau of Ships verified all our calculations and found the design to be practical and 'water-worthy.' The Secretary of the Navy then sent the project to the US Navy's Bureau of Yards and Docks, where its fabrication and assembly procedures and cost were analyzed on a basis of the 'floating city' being built in a shipyard as are aircraft carriers and other vessels. The cost analysis of the Navy Department came out within 10 percent of our cost - which bore out its occupiability at rental just above the poverty class.

    ``At this point the city of Baltimore became interested in acquiring the first such floating city for anchorage just offshore in Chesapeake Bay, adjacent to Baltimore's waterfront. At this time President Lyndon Johnson's Democratic party went out of power. President Johnson took the model with him and installed it in his LBJ Texas library. The city of Baltimore's politicians went out of favor with the Nixon administration, and the whole project languished. The city of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and other cities of the U.S.A are interested in the possibility of acquiring such floating cities. Chances of one being inaugurated are now improving.

    ``In relation to such floating cities it is to be noted that they are completely designed under one authority, and when they become obsolete, they are scrapped and melted and the materials go into subsequent production of a greatly advanced model whose improvements are based on earlier experiences as well as the general interim advances of all technology.

    ``There are three types of floating cities: There is one for protected harbor waters, one for semiprotected waters, and one for unprotected deep-sea installations. The deep-sea type is supported by submarine pontoons positioned under the turbulence, with their centers of buoyancy 100 feet below the ocean's surface. Structural columns rise from the submarine pontoons outwardly through the water to support the floating city high above the crests of the greatest waves, which thus pass innocuously below the city's lowest flooring, as rivers flow under great bridges. The deap-sea, deeply pontooned floating cities will be as motionless in respect to our planet as are islanded or land-based cities.

    ``There are also deep-sea spherical and cylindrical geodesic floating cities whose hulls are positioned entirely below the ocean surface turbulence. Only their vertical entrance towers penetrate outwardly through the disturbed surface waters. The occupants of submarine cities with their vertical towers penetrating outwardly above water can be serviced by helicopters landing on the tower-top platforms. Such pontooned or hulled submarine cities also can provide safe mid-ocean docking for atomic-powered cargo- and passenger-carrying submarine transports. With their submarine hulls locked together below the turbulence, a safe passageway can be opened between them.

    ``Even in mild weather docking cannot be done on the open water surface of the ocean. Even the mildest 'old-sea' or ground swells would roll any two ocean ships' great tonnages into disastrous hull-smashing clashes. Relative mass attraction is proportional to the product of the masses of the interchanges. When any two oceangoing steel vessels come within 'critical proximity,' their interattraction is fourfolded every time the distance between them is halved. This chain-attraction-increasing force pulls them sideways toward one another, ultimately to touch and chew up one another's skins - that is, unless one is maneuvered in time backward or forward away from the other. Land harbors are essential for surface docking or inter-tie-up of ships of any size. There are relatively few big-ship harbors in the world. This fact, and the world-around scarcity of such good harbors as Athens' Piraeus, France's Cherbourg, Italy's Venice, the U.S.A's New York, or Tokyo's Yokohama, have greatly affected the geographical patterning of world history. The new ability to transfer cargoes at sea could completely alter world economic balances and could bring ships once more into economic competition with airplanes. The recent decades' development of seventy-knot submerged speed of the great atomic submarines, complemented by floating cities, could herald the beginning of a new era of subsurface oceanic traffic.

    ``In due time small cruising yachts also will be able to sail or power around the world in safe, one-day runs from one protected floating city's harbor to the next.''
    [From Jim Fiegenschue, 12 Oct 1993]

    If you are interested in studying and solving some of the practical problems of floating habitations (such as anchoring, survival of storms, etc.) you might contact Sten Sjostrand, the architect who designed The Saigon Floating Hotel. The first and to my knowledge still the only floating resort hotel in the world, it was built in Singapore for about $22 million in 1987-8 US dollars. Another $5.5 million of furniture and accessories were added, plus a $2.5 million special anchor system, so this is a serious professional project. The 7-story hotel has 200 guest rooms, a lavish lobby, a swimming pool(!), a tennis court, a night club, a sauna, a gymnasium, small shops, several restaurants, two cocktail bars, a library, fully equipped conference rooms, post office, sewage treatment plants, facilities for mooring sail boats and yachts, an underwater observatory, and a marine laboratory. Originally opened for business as the Four Seasons Barrier Reef Resort in 1988 over the Australian Great Barrier Reef, it was a big draw for scuba divers. All waste- disposal machinery is sealed off completely to protect the environment. It is currently owned by the Japanese company EIE, who operate it offshore Saigon.

    You can possibly reach Sten Sjostrand through the Atlantis Project, which is currently raising funds to build a floating city/nation to be called Oceania. Their newsletter, called Chain Breaker, is located at 4132 S. Rainbow Blvd, Suite 387; Las Vegas, Nevada 89103. Phone: 702 897-8418.
    [From Bill Kovarik]

    There's a book called ``Engineers Dreams'' which depicts a floating city as a mid-Atlantic airport plan from the 1940s. Sometime in the 1970s the University of Hawaii designed a floating city, and you can get the book on interlibrary loan. I know the Virginia Tech architecture school library has it, if you can't find it anywhere else. Both the airport and the Hawaii ideas dealt with structural engineering problems primarily.

    There are important reasons to consider floating cities as resources for the not too distant future, I believe.

    A very important need is for factories for processing renewable energy resources which would be too expensive or too ecologically disruptive to collect on land. Of course, the most problematic aspect of renewable energy is its dispersed nature. It must be collected and concentrated, and the process of doing that can raise costs to a non-competitive level with fossil energy.

    For many decades, biochemical engineers have looked to marine biomass resources as being possible to cultivate in enormous quantities without creating ecological disruptions. As early as 1918 the Pasteur Institute was engaged in the study of renewable liquid fuels like methyl and ethyl alcohol from kelp. They were able to produce about 10 gallons of fuel alcohol per ton using an acid hydrolysis method. This is very old technology; better methods are available today.

    In the late 1970s and early 80s tremendous new attention focused on renewable resources, and marine biomass was the subject of a good deal of study. One of the most important was the Marine Biomass Energy Conversion Technology Research Committee of the Japan Ocean Industries Association. In one study they found that a 50 kg / m2 per year was the average productivity of both Sargassum and Laminaria type kelp. I don't know if they investigated the various energy production scenarios or what their final figures are, but you could probably find out pretty quickly.

    If we converted kelp to renewable liquid energy at the rate of 10 gallons per ton, what do we get? Lets assume one ton (1,000 kg) is grown on 20 square meters and produces 10 gallons. To make a million gallons we need an area of 200 square kilometers. To make a billion gallons would take a 2,000 square mile area, and to replace just the gasoline used in the U.S. (100 billion gallons a year) with alcohol from marine biomass would take a 40,000 square kilometer area -- around the size of Ireland and Cuba. Of course, more efficient processes and enhanced production could decrease the necessary size, but there would be little problem finding space in the ocean for an extra 40,000 kilometers somewhere. You would hope that the final cost of this liquid fuel was within a tolerable range, lets say $1.20 (US prices) to $5.00 per gallon (European fuel prices).
    OK, what about the waste products. When the kelp is hydrolized we get this goopy green leftover glop -- some of it could go to other chemical processes and some could be returned to the sea, along with treated sewage from the city, to fertilize the kelp beds for future harvests.

    How do you support the rest of the city? Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion (OTEC) for electricity and fish farming and hydroponics for food, other light manufacturing, some mining of deep sea minerals -- those are possibilities.

    What is impossible to make at sea? Probably heavy industrial processes, such as steel mills, aluminum refining, textiles, etc.

    Who would live there? Given the need for dignified employment in many developing nations, I would think that you could find millions of people willing to become ``kelpers.'' If developing nations would divert financial resources out of the petroleum sector and into sustainable development, it could vastly raise the standard of living of some of the poorest people on earth and solve a large portion of the environmental crisis at the same time.

    You can see (squint hard, now) some of the visions of Huxley or Fuller or even Dwayne Andreas in play here, and we can see the outline of a real solution to the world energy / environmental crisis in the development of floating cities that produce renewable energy and food.

    [From Steve Mather]

    One possibility in ``floating cities'' that I recently came across is the ``Mining'' Magnesium. Allegedly it can be obtained from sea water. Volvo developed a car back in the eighties (unfortunately they only developed it, it never went into production) that was made of a significant amounts of magnesium for its weight and because it avoided damaging mining practices. It's called the Volvo LCP 2000. Allegedly it gets anywhere from 56 to 81 (tops, 100) mpg, and, being a diesel, will run on nearly anything. For more info write Bob Austin of Volvo of America Corporation, Rockleigh, New Jersey, 07647; or call (201) 768-7300.
    http://www.cjfearnley.com/fuller-faq-5.html
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 06-10-2016 at 02:50 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Nope. Not me. Ya'll go ahead. Given the way people argue around here, I'd end up choking half of yuns. Well...the anarchists anyway. They're largely just socialists blending in with libertarians. And you know how socialists always want to organize their little gang from within the camp and take yer stuff at gunpoint in order to prop up their little system. First they organize their little fire companies...then their security forces...then they monopolize everything...then they start ranking themselves...then you're right back where you were in the first place.

    Too much drama with "libertarians". Always trying to form a posse and telling everyone what to do and how to do it and whatnot. Plus, I need my quiet time.
    You're confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  13. #11
    My country never left, the mind-job about what it supposedly takes to live in it with others just intensified. (a whole lot it seems)

    The opt-out and horse-trading network is sort of a "country", try finding, forming, or furthering one with your neighbors, family, & friends. You know the concept. Get a mutually beneficial relationship going, excluding the third party pointing the gun, and watch the loyalty to the concept and relationship strengthen.
    It is good for me to have something (good, service) to bring to the table/trade when I network -or it appears that I am just talking about the concept.
    The more value I voluntarily give, the more I sell the concept -I LOVE selling the concept. The sans-FRN discount works, and just like the old days, you get individuals trying to "out nice" each other.

    Remove the FRNs (control) as much as you can, and see the free country and the bounty that follows appear right before your eyes. Network now with like minded, responsible people, so that when the wheels really fall off of the FRN, and someone sits on that pair of rosy glasses...
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
    Ron Paul

    Please watch, subscribe, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report
    BITCHUTE IS A LIBERTY MINDED ALTERNATIVE TO GOOGLE SUBSIDIARY YOUTUBE

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    You're confused.
    Yeah? Okay. 'splain, then, Henry. Elighten me, please. For one thing, some of the most authoritarian people I know identify as libertarian. Could I opt out of whatever system that they got together with their little clique and set up there on the island if I didn't like their monopoly and their system of enforcement? I mean, what if I decided to create my own infrastructure and security forces on the island to compete with them? Would they let me?
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-10-2016 at 03:06 PM.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by younglibertarian View Post
    Why don't all us members of RPF pitch in and buy our own island and move there.

    I'm sick of this country.
    Not sure I'd want to be with all RPF members at this point.

  16. #14
    Or maybe we could all move to a little trailer park in Uganda?
    The most important element of a free society, where individual rights are held in the highest esteem, is the rejection of the initiation of violence.

    RON PAUL







  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    Not sure I'd want to be with all RPF members at this point.
    There could be different parts of town, we can put all the Trumpers in a little section, or offshoot island.
    The most important element of a free society, where individual rights are held in the highest esteem, is the rejection of the initiation of violence.

    RON PAUL







  18. #16
    A country where everybody agrees on everything will have a population of one. Would that have anarchy or a dictator for government?
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 06-10-2016 at 03:13 PM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Yeah? Okay. 'splain, then, Henry. Elighten me, please.
    Ok.
    Well...the anarchists anyway. They're largely just socialists blending in with libertarians. And you know how socialists always want to organize their little gang from within the camp and take yer stuff at gunpoint in order to prop up their little system.
    The majority of Anarchists on these forums are ancaps, That stands for Anarcho-capitalist. Anarcho-capitalist are the total opposites of socialists.

    And you know how socialists always want to organize their little gang from within the camp and take yer stuff at gunpoint in order to prop up their little system. First they organize their little fire companies...then their security forces...then they monopolize everything...then they start ranking themselves...then you're right back where you were in the first place.
    AnCaps are for complete voluntary interaction and abhor everthing you typed in this quote.

    If you hates us or find us irrelevant, that's fine, I can live with that, but don't make $#@! up.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    Ok.

    The majority of Anarchists on these forums are ancaps, That stands for Anarcho-capitalist. Anarcho-capitalist are the total opposites of socialists.


    AnCaps are for complete voluntary interaction and abhor everthing you typed in this quote.

    If you hates us or find us irrelevant, that's fine, I can live with that, but don't make $#@! up.

    Okay. Thanks, Henry. I know what Anarcho-capitalism is. And I understand the philosophy. But ancaps would still have to exist on this theoretical island with other variants of anarchy. Not everyone here is an ancap.

    Do you believe that a community as such that has been mentioned here in the op would permit for a society that was both capitalist and varying philosophies of anarchism? I don't think it would even work. Some anarchists don't accept that certain elements of capitalism is even voluntary. So, then, how would they exist without some kind of coercion or aggression?

    I don't hate you. Heck, I don't hate anyone at all. In fact, I've always kind of liked you, Henry. And I don't find them irrelevant either. Just shortsighted is all. They don't think things through all the way.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-10-2016 at 03:24 PM.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Yeah? Okay. 'splain, then, Henry. Elighten me, please. For one thing, some of the most authoritarian people I know identify as libertarian. Could I opt out of whatever system that they got together with their little clique and set up there on the island if I didn't like their monopoly and their system of enforcement? I mean, what if I decided to create my own infrastructure and security forces on the island to compete with them? Would they let me?
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by younglibertarian View Post
    There could be different parts of town, we can put all the Trumpers in a little section, or offshoot island.
    LOL...build a wall. It's only fair.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    Yes.
    I disagree completely with that. The very model of anarcho-capitalism monopolizes justice. And I've seen the very same ideas shared around here many, many times. To the word. Private courts, private security to guard the water hole, private fire companies, private everything and going to whomever pays the most for it. That's essentially a cartel. A clique.

    I doubt, very highly, that they'd allow any opting out of their little monopoliy for competition at all. Their very philosophy rejects it. They'd be the most oppressive out of all of the varying forms of tyranny in my view. It's naturally evolve into a minarchy.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-10-2016 at 03:37 PM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Yeah? Okay. 'splain, then, Henry. Elighten me, please. For one thing, some of the most authoritarian people I know identify as libertarian. Could I opt out of whatever system that they got together with their little clique and set up there on the island if I didn't like their monopoly and their system of enforcement? I mean, what if I decided to create my own infrastructure and security forces on the island to compete with them? Would they let me?
    I agree with this. Libertarian seems to be a fluid word, meaning anything the person using it wants it to mean. Glenn Beck is a libertarian. Mary Matalin is a libertarian. My dog claims to be a libertarian (she's closer to my view of a libertarian than Glenn and Mary are.) It's become a meaningless word.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    I agree with this. Libertarian seems to be a fluid word, meaning anything the person using it wants it to mean. Glenn Beck is a libertarian. Mary Matalin is a libertarian. My dog claims to be a libertarian (she's closer to my view of a libertarian than Glenn and Mary are.) It's become a meaningless word.
    When justice becomes viewed as property to be sold, and, enforced by private courts and whomever has the largest security monopoly then, you have tyranny. The worst kind of tyranny. The fundamental principles of anarcho-capitalism demand that they have it just that way. Of course, I'm just using that as an example since it was brought up.

    There is no opting out to compete with their private courts or private security or whatever. The cartel will inevitably show up at your doorstep.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-10-2016 at 03:46 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Okay. Thanks, Henry. I know what Anarcho-capitalism is. And I understand the philosophy. But ancaps would still have to exist on this theoretical island with other variants of anarchy. Not everyone here is an ancap.
    We currently exist a long side all sorts of different political types right here in this country. Some people that i like the best and enjoy to be around, are opposed to me politically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Do you believe that a community as such that has been mentioned here in the op would permit for a society that was both capitalist and anarchist? I don't think it would even work. Some anarchists don't accept that certain elements of capitalism is even voluntary.
    If it is not voluntary, then it is a form of state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    I don't hate you. Heck, I don't hate anyone at all. And I don't find them irrelevant either. Just shortsighted is all.
    I'm not shortsighted, I understand that most people prefer to be slaves as long as they can exert some control over their fellow slaves and as long as they get crumbs, privileges and protections over their fellow slaves and that things will never change, in fact i see the big picture quite clearly.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    I disagree completely with that. The very model of anarcho-capitalism monopolizes justice. And I've seen the very same ideas shared around here many, many times. To the word. Private courts, private security to guard the water hole, private fire companies, private everything and going to whomever pays the most for it. That's essentially a cartel. A clique.

    I doubt, very highly, that they'd allow any opting out of their little monopoliy for competition at all. Their very philosophy rejects it. They'd be the most oppressive out of all of the varying forms of tyranny in my view. It's naturally evolve into a minarchy.
    what you live with right now is a monopoly. The JUST US system is a monopoly. The state is a monopoly.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  31. #27
    I'm not calling you shortsighted specifically, Henry. I'm just saying that an anarcho-capitalist society would naturally and inevitably, by its very structure, evolve into a minarchy is all.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-10-2016 at 04:04 PM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    what you live with right now is a monopoly. The JUST US system is a monopoly. The state is a monopoly.
    Yeah, I know, Henry. I don't like it any more than you do, man. But so, too, would an anarcho-capitalist society become a JUST US affair. By its fundamental principles it must and will evolve into a minarchy.

    Anyway. I'm just not going to move onto the island with you guys if yuns ever pull the cash together. I mean, I like you guys. I really do. But you have to watch out for the fellers making all of the plans in an anarcho-capitalist camp. Because they won't tell you what I just did. Nope. Crickets. But like I said, man, I need my quiet time anyway.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-10-2016 at 05:35 PM.

  33. #29
    I am all for living in a country where participation is considered voluntary, and the key values include non-aggression and non-intervention. If people support Trump, I will think less of them, but it won't stop me from peaceful coexisting with them in a relatively nearby space as long as they don't infringe on my right to do whatever the F I want. It'd be a plus if luctor-et-emergo was there, he fascinates me.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lindsey View Post
    I am all for living in a country where participation is considered voluntary, and the key values include non-aggression and non-intervention. If people support Trump, I will think less of them, but it won't stop me from peaceful coexisting with them in a relatively nearby space as long as they don't infringe on my right to do whatever the F I want. It'd be a plus if luctor-et-emergo was there, he fascinates me.
    He also has a pizza oven.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

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