In March, California had so much solar power the state paid Arizona to take the excess

[Natural Citizen]

There's that word.

And there's the demagoguery. One has to wonder why such fabricated hysteria is necessary if the science is sound. http://reason.com/archives/2013/07/0...about-fracking

Ha. Reason Magazine. I wouldn't line my bird cage with that fodder. The Koch boys have funded themselves quite an enterprising mouth piece in Reason.

"Hysteria?" Why don't 'we' ask one of the drones over at Reason what they know about the 1st amendment. Oh the hysteria.


For example...

Lifelong ‘frack gag’: Two Pennsylvania children banned from discussing fracking

"We know we're signing for silence forever, but how is this taking away our children's rights being minors?" Stephanie Hallowich asked the judge.

"I mean, my daughter is turning 7 today, my son is 10."

According to the transcripts, Judge Polonsky, who oversaw the case, was unable to clarify. The family's attorney, Peter Villari, questioned whether the order would be enforceable.

"I, frankly, your Honor, as an attorney, to be honest with you, I don't know if that's possible that you can give up the First Amendment rights of a child," stated Villari.

“These gag orders are the reason [drillers] can give testimony to Congress and say there are no documented cases of contamination. And then elected officials can repeat that,”said Sharon Wilson, an organizer with Earthworks who also spoke with ClimateProgress.

Freedom is inconvenient, I know. So go to the government to fix that little inconvenience, right?

Fukers.

[AZJoe]

Highest prices in the nation, yet they have to pay others to take the surplus.

Clearly a situation that can be made worse by crony government intervention. Once again, it's a situation where consumers don't get to choose the lowest cost or environmentally friendly suppliers.

With all due respect Brian, try to see the big picture here ... Renewable energy combined with hydrogen storage offers total energy independence, millions and millions of jobs, clean green fuel - whether one believes in "climate change" or not.

We are looking at a paradigm shift- ...

With all due respect PP. Brian is correct. No need for any government cronyism. If solar or any other source is so super duper wonderful, then it certainly does not need government intervention and government market distortion. To say any particular product needs the force of government to survive or prosper is to admit the product(s) are not currently economically feasible.

[Cleaner44]

With all due respect Brian, try to see the big picture here,

A few years ago, most everyone said solar was incapable of scaling big.

Now everyone that looks can see it works, and works very well. Renewable energy combined with hydrogen storage offers total energy independence, millions and millions of jobs, clean green fuel - whether one believes in "climate change" or not.

We are looking at a paradigm shift- cheap clean DOMESTICALLY PRODUCED energy that doesn't require massive drilling into the earth and then injecting chemicals. Back to the days before the first Arab Oil embargo. We are looking at 0.75 - $1.00 price per gallon of gas equivalent.

It's a total changed game - all that has to happen to make it work is to DO IT and DO IT NOW

As I've said a hundred thousand times- in the next 24 HOURS the US will spend almost $200 million dollars chasing rebels around sand dunes 8,000 miles away. We've literally thrown away trillions of dollars on NOTHING except death and destruction. The only POSSIBLE EXCUSE for this absolute nonsense is that is where the US gets the oil to run the nation.

WE DO NOT NEED IT ANYMORE. The proof is there for anyone that can see. STOP WASTING MONEY ON WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST and DO IT NOW.

And for the Fracking fans- may a crew of 50 show up down your street and begin drilling tomorrow. Hopefully, it will contaminate your water so that it can be lit on fire coming out of the tap, and then you'll see how wonderful fracking really is. There is a clean alternative RIGHT NOW.

Apparently you missed the part about how the government doesn't keep us in war in the middle east in order to secure oil. Do you know of a better way for the politicians to launder billions of dollars to military industrial companies?

[Peace Piper]

With all due respect PP. Brian is correct. No need for any government cronyism. If solar or any other source is so super duper wonderful, then it certainly does not need government intervention and government market distortion. To say any particular product needs the force of government to survive or prosper is to admit the product(s) are not currently economically feasible.

Great! With no respect whatsoever, when do fossil fuel subsidies end?


Cashing in on All of the Above: U.S. Fossil Fuel Production Subsidies under Obama

Oil Change International July 2014

A new report by Oil Change International, Cashing in on All of the Above: U.S. Fossil Fuel Production Subsidies under Obama, demonstrates the huge and growing amount of subsidies going to the fossil fuel industry in the U.S. every year. In 2013, the U.S. federal and state governments gave away $21.6 billion in subsidies for oil, gas, and coal exploration and production.

The value of fossil fuel exploration and production subsidies from the federal government have increased by 45 percent since President Obama took office in 2009 – from $12.7 billion to a current total of $18.5 billion – a side effect of his Administration’s “All of the Above” energy policy that promotes the U.S. oil and gas boom and amounts to nothing less than climate denial. President Obama has repeatedly tried to repeal some of the most egregious of these subsidies, but these attempts have been blocked by a U.S. Congress that has been bought out by campaign finance and lobbying expenditures from the fossil fuel industry. http://priceofoil.org/2014/07/09/cas...s-under-obama/

How much money does the United States government provide to support the oil, gas, and coal industries?

As of July 2014, Oil Change International estimates United States fossil fuel subsidies at $37.5 billion annually, including $21 billion in production and exploration subsidies. Other credible estimates of annual United States fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 billion to $52 billion annually – yet none of these include costs borne by taxpayers related to the climate, local environmental, and health impacts of the fossil fuel industry. http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

Allocation of subsidies in the United States

A 2011 study by the consulting firm Management Information Services, Inc. (MISI)[28] estimated the total historical federal subsidies for various energy sources over the years 1950–2010. The study found that oil, natural gas, and coal received $369 billion, $121 billion, and $104 billion (2010 dollars), respectively, or 70% of total energy subsidies over that period. Oil, natural gas, and coal benefited most from percentage depletion allowances and other tax-based subsidies, but oil also benefited heavily from regulatory subsidies such as exemptions from price controls and higher-than-average rates of return allowed on oil pipelines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy...#United_States


What's your answer to that? Subsidizing these industries is almost as insane as not being able to see the value of clean green domestically produced renewable energy.

Clearly it's a waste of time to post about hydrogen, solar or wind energy in this forum. With any luck, I'll be leaving the country soon, It's like living in an insane asylum. And remember, in the next 24 hours, the US will spend/borrow another $200 million dollars to chase a bunch of "rebels" around sand dunes 8,000 miles away. You all can't even protest about that. Tulsi Gabbard has to propose a bill to STOP FUNDING TERRORISTS and THAT doesn't even go anywhere.

[Krugminator2]

EVERY SINGLE TIME I post on this topic on this board this happens. What the hell are you doing to make the US energy independent?

Oh. Well being energy independent is pointless. It is a meaningless idea that would serve no purpose. It wouldn't stop wars. It wouldn't make the country safer. It wouldn't make the United States wealthier.

St. Milton expounded on this idea. Here is an article from another economist David Henderson in FEE explaining why it is a brain-dead idea. https://fee.org/articles/lets-not-be...y-independent/

Corporate welfare for green energy boondoggles will make America poorer and less free. Solar has been a massive failure. Almost every solar company went bankrupt over the last 5 years. Subsidizing Solyndra, EnerOne, SunPower, is not what America needs to be doing.

[Swordsmyth]

Oh. Well being energy independent is pointless. It is a meaningless idea that would serve no purpose. It wouldn't stop wars. It wouldn't make the country safer. It wouldn't make the United States wealthier.

St. Milton expounded on this idea. Here is an article from another economist David Henderson in FEE explaining why it is a braind-dead idea. https://fee.org/articles/lets-not-be...y-independent/

That article sets up a straw-man and then knocks it down.
We can have energy independence if the Government gets out of the way of energy production.

And some things are more important than money, dependence brings submission, we can't afford the loss of our sovereignty, therefore we must achieve energy independence.

[Krugminator2]

That article sets up a straw-man and then knocks it down.
We can have energy independence if the Government gets out of the way of energy production.

And some things are more important than money, dependence brings submission, we can't afford the loss of our sovereignty, therefore we must achieve energy independence.

There is no loss of sovereignty. Oil is a world market. If Venezuela or Iraq decided to not sell us oil, it would have zero effect on anything. That is why the United States doesn't have an embargo on Venezuealan oil. If we did, it wouldn't change anything. Venezuela would just sell to someone else at the world price.

The United States should produce as much as possible at a profitable price without subsidies and as few regulations as necessary. The United States should not subsidize energy production for the sake of being independent. Comparative advantage is still a thing.

[Swordsmyth]

There is no loss of sovereignty. Oil is a world market. If Venezuela or Iraq decided to not sell us oil, it would have zero effect on anything. That is why the United States doesn't have an embargo on Venezuealan oil. If we did, it wouldn't change anything. Venezuela would just sell to someone else at the world price.

The United States should produce as much as possible at a profitable price without subsidies and as few regulations as necessary. The United States should not subsidize energy production for the sake of being independent. Comparative advantage is still a thing.

I suppose you never heard of OPEC and their effect on U.S. Mid East policy?
We may now be about to break free thanks to OPEC's imminent demise.

[Krugminator2]

I suppose you never heard of OPEC and their effect on U.S. Mid East policy?
We may now be about to break free thanks to OPEC's imminent demise.

OPEC and oil production might affect policy but that shouldn't be the case. The United States is capable of much more oil production. If OPEC decided to produce much less oil to drive the price up, then it would be profitable for more firms in the US to produce oil.

The same logic for why OPEC gets too much consideration is the same reason the Gulf War shouldn't have happened. The amount that the US could be financially harmed is very small and the cost of dealing with that harm is much greater.

I always had misgivings about the Gulf War, but I never came to a firm decision. It was more nearly justified than other recent foreign interventions, and yet I was persuaded that the major argument used to support it was fallacious.

After all, if Iraq took over the oil, it would have to do something with it. If they don't want to eat it, they'd have to sell it. I don't think the price of oil would have been much affected.

http://reason.com/archives/1995/06/0...-both-worlds/5

[Swordsmyth]

OPEC and oil production might affect policy but that shouldn't be the case. The United States is capable of much more oil production. If OPEC decided to produce much less oil to drive the price up, then it would be profitable for more firms in the US to produce oil.

The same logic for why OPEC gets too much consideration is the same reason the Gulf War shouldn't have happened. The amount that the US could be financially harmed is very small and the cost of dealing with that harm is much greater.

http://reason.com/archives/1995/06/0...-both-worlds/5

We both agree that Government needs to get out of the way, but we must always be on guard against any flank attacks on our sovereignty, money is not the only point of human existence.

[AZJoe]

Great! With no respect whatsoever, when do fossil fuel subsidies end?

Right! Just as Brian said. No need for any government cronyism.

Freedom is the answer! End ALL government distortion - not more of it. The answer is not more subsidies or regulations, but the removal of them. The answer to government distortion is not more government distortion. End government handouts in favor of fossil fuels as well as penalties against it. Also end gasoline taxes. End the gasahol, corn subsidies as well. Abolish the entire Department of Energy! Let people choose. Let market factors reveal the true costs and benefits of one versus the other.

You want to see more solar. Thank government for inhibiting it. End the regulations and laws preventing people from going off grid. They protect and preserve the utility monopolies. While subsidizing certain solar panels, government turns around and imposes "grid use surcharges" for people possessing solar panels. End the laws and regs that prevent end point customers from actually utilizing solar and wind generation systems on their homes where the small scale storage is actually workable and feasible. End the regulations that prevent installation of off grid power generation systems - confusing and unnecessary licensing and regulations and even criminal statutes. Plug and play modular expansion systems that people can install themselves are already available and affordable. But government prevents their use.

Instead, not only does the government penalize or prevent individual off grid renewal energy, but it subsidizes and promotes giant centralized command and control giant solar/wind plants. Effective energy storage is the Achilles heel of such a centralized command and control solar/wind energy generation systems. Giant solar and wind energy generation fields have no efficient nor cost effective means for energy storage to meet the high fluctuations of both energy generation and demands of mass market. That's why you end up with ridiculous scenarios like government paying to take the excess energy to avoid damaging the grid, and why such centralized generation plants cannot meet full demand needs when the demand is highest or when the generation is at low levels (darkness, especially cloudy or windless days). In addition such centralized solar and wind farm systems occupy huge swaths of land, and require hundreds of thousands of kilometers of transmission and distributions lines, with resultant added costs and lost efficiency. Small scale end point generation and storage for individual homes and buildings is doable. End the monopolies given utility companies. Remove market distortions of price and availability and monopoly and option restrictions all created by force of government. Allow the market to reveal the true cost and benefits of each. Allow people to choose for themselves.

Government is the problem, not the solution. Freedom is the answer.