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Thread: Trump Has Killed More Civilians with Illegal Drone Strikes in 9 Months Than Obama Did in 8 Yea

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Sociopaths gonna act sociopathically?
    Well, it couldn't be to create more terrorists. I mean only someone who profits from war would do that. And we all know nobody profits from war, right?
    "The Patriarch"



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Post #13

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6582702


    This is by no means definitive.. Both sides are skewed. I have no idea how many civilians have been killed, and you are right that 1 is too many. I do know that I attribute A LOT more deaths to Obama than what they say, since he created and funded ISIS.. and I am pretty sure Trump wants to keep things under control, he was fairly consistently anti-war for many years.. but I think he wanted to take a hard stand against ISIS and some of these countries and then review after they have been given a chance to fight and win and hopefully decide that it isn't worth it and end a lot of these conflicts... the sooner the better.
    Obomber gave JSOC too much free reign, maybe to the point of exhaustion. In fairness to any subsequent President, DOD and CIA operations may be so entangled any President would be hard-pressed clarifying just what the hell's getting blown up today. A village? A mall? An airstrip?

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Well, it couldn't be to create more terrorists. I mean only someone who profits from war would do that. And we all know nobody profits from war, right?

    Nah, THAT couldn't be it.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Obomber gave JSOC too much free reign, maybe to the point of exhaustion. In fairness to any subsequent President, DOD and CIA operations may be so entangled any President would be hard-pressed clarifying just what the hell's getting blown up today. A village? A mall? An airstrip?
    Trump ceded control over drone strikes to the CIA.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/militar...trikes-n802311

    Trump Administration Wants to Increase CIA Drone Strikes

    WASHINGTON — When President Donald Trump visited CIA headquarters in the first weeks of his presidency, he toured the secure floor where agency officers direct drone strikes against suspected terrorists, current and former U.S. officials told NBC News.

    Impressed by what he saw, Trump conveyed to incoming CIA Director Mike Pompeo and the assembled agency officers that he wanted them to take a more aggressive posture, according to two current U.S. officials and one former official briefed on the visit.

    Soon afterward, multiple sources said, the CIA began carrying out drone strikes that might not have been authorized under the Obama administration, including in Syria, where the military has taken the lead on targeting militant leaders.

    The White House granted CIA officers more autonomy to decide on whether and when the U.S. can pull the trigger in various places around the world, including in Yemen, where the military carries out the bulk of the airstrikes, according to four U.S. officials who have been briefed on the agency's counterterrorism operations. The upshot is less micromanaging of targeting decisions by the White House, these officials say.

    Now, the Trump administration is contemplating additional policy changes that will further expand the CIA's authority to conduct drone strikes in a number of countries, both in and out of war zones. Such a move would reverse years of effort by President Barack Obama to reduce the CIA's role in targeted killing and shift that responsibility to the military. It could also mean more civilian casualties in CIA drone strikes.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Trump ceded control over drone strikes to the CIA.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/militar...trikes-n802311
    Better than being Kennedyed by the CIA, is it not?

    I notice he didn't release any useful information about Dealey Plaza, either. They seem to have their bluff in. Not that it is a bluff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Trump ceded control over drone strikes to the CIA.
    And they have a track record. and none of it good from inception.

    Nothing Good.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by asurfaholic View Post
    Anyone who kills from afar is no friend of freedom.

    Trump is the worst thing that could have happened to America. Now people cheer and wave flags and read his tweets and think that everything he does is nothing short of glorious.
    Absolutely! When Ben Franklin wrote the Pennsylvania Committee of Safety in 1775 to call for the production of pikes, it was not doubt due to the ability of muskets to slay at a distance. To look ones foe in the eye as you slide steel through their ribs and sever the aortic arch - that is patriotism.

    XNN
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    F- on this issue.

    Morally reprehensible and counterproductive.

    All you do is make more "terrorists".
    Agreed .

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Eisenhower didn't start any new major wars. Neither did Kennedy, Carter, or even Nixon (unless you count this war on us and our freedoms).

    Raimondo is, as usual, full of $#@!. Even so, it's a bit early for you Trumpsters to brag, don't you think? Truman didn't start Korea in his first year in office. Trump has plenty of time, and plenty of irons in the fire.
    Yes, let's just give Ike a pass on sending the first military advisors to Vietnam. Kennedy never deployed the 3rd MEU to Thailand. Nixon didn't authorize an airlift to supply Israel during the Yom Kippur war. And Saint Jimmy never ever snuck supplies into Zaire in support of our dictator against rebels. Nary a dead civilian anywhere.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.02b0d38c85e2

    XNN
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by XNavyNuke View Post
    Yes, let's just give Ike a pass on sending the first military advisors to Vietnam. Kennedy never deployed the 3rd MEU to Thailand. Nixon didn't authorize an airlift to supply Israel during the Yom Kippur war. And Saint Jimmy never ever snuck supplies into Zaire in support of our dictator against rebels. Nary a dead civilian anywhere.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.02b0d38c85e2

    XNN
    I'm not saying any of them deserve 'a pass'. I'm just not classifying those things as 'major new wars' the way Raimondo appears to be doing.

    If Eisenhower's activity in Vietnam, for example, is classified as starting a major new war, then it's way, way too soon for Raimondo or anyone else to be saying that Trump hasn't started a major new war. He has done things already which could mushroom in a similar manner later.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-01-2018 at 11:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Dannno, maybe this will cheer you up: Via Justin Rainmondo:
    No new wars... unless you count ground operations in Yemen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Nah, THAT couldn't be it.
    WHAT?!



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  16. #73

  17. #74
    How soon are we going to die?

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    This article claims that one study showed 95% of Airwars casualties were non-credible:



    https://www.realcleardefense.com/art...es_112395.html


    Here is a prequel to that article:

    https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-in...ties-and-media
    You're going to take deep state propaganda over Soros propaganda? How does one determine, between those two, which is best?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  19. #76
    The people got the leader and policies they deserve. FFS, "liberty" people on this very forum jumped at the chance to align themselves with Trump, The LP nominated Gary Johnson again (and are now distancing themselves from Ron himself), Rand Paul was largely ignored, and a far as I could tell had little to no grassroots movement.

    Liberty ain't just dead, they killed it, buried it, dug it up, sodomized it, then lit it on fire.

    That's what pisses me off about people like ol danno here. Fighting idiotic liberals back is one thing... but traitors to freedom is another.

    Congrats, America. You broke liberty, ya bunch of $#@!s. And this is why we can't have nice things.

  20. #77

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Hey retard, read the $#@!ing article

    https://www.realcleardefense.com/art...es_112395.html

    The author is claiming that the sources are non-credible because some high ranking army officer said they aren't. Why the $#@! should we believe what he says? The guy has been unapologetically serving in the terrorist US military his whole life. What does the author consider to be verified military strikes? Only if there's an official Pentagon report stating a strike occurred in X location with Y civilian deaths?

    Maybe because high ranking US military officials have such a long history of telling the absolute, unvarnished truth regarding actual civilian casualties? No? No, I couldn't even type that with a straight face. It's just more horse$#@! government lies. Business as usual.


    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Read this article found on the same site

    https://www.realcleardefense.com/201...ed_290120.html

    So 1000s of airstrikes go unreported officially by the military, but at the same time, 95% of the strikes reported by other sources are fake. How does this make any sense? It's obvious the Airwars figures are far more accurate than the absolute bull$#@! you are swallowing without question.

    I note that the very same sources were perfectly acceptable when it was Obama's drone strikes under discussion. Now all of a sudden they're suspect? Hmmm.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Eisenhower didn't start any new major wars. Neither did Kennedy, Carter, or even Nixon (unless you count this war on us and our freedoms).

    Raimondo is, as usual, full of $#@!. Even so, it's a bit early for you Trumpsters to brag, don't you think? Truman didn't start Korea in his first year in office. Trump has plenty of time, and plenty of irons in the fire.

    Yeah, the whole "no new major wars" claim has a very good chance of proving to be utter bull$#@!. Bush didn't invade Iraq until over halfway through his first term. Trump has, so far, been doing an excellent job of seriously antagonizing both Russia and China. If he does wind up getting us into another major war it will almost certainly be a GREAT war. The GREATEST. With the greatest cassualties. It'll be YUUUUGE.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I suppose I should give you credit for that. But that was about as easy a prediction as forecasting that the national debt would go up today.
    Yeah, but I was ahead of them (dannno posting group) by just 5 minutes. That's something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Indian View Post
    The people got the leader and policies they deserve. FFS, "liberty" people on this very forum jumped at the chance to align themselves with Trump, The LP nominated Gary Johnson again (and are now distancing themselves from Ron himself), Rand Paul was largely ignored, and a far as I could tell had little to no grassroots movement.

    Liberty ain't just dead, they killed it, buried it, dug it up, sodomized it, then lit it on fire.

    That's what pisses me off about people like ol danno here. Fighting idiotic liberals back is one thing... but traitors to freedom is another.

    Congrats, America. You broke liberty, ya bunch of $#@!s. And this is why we can't have nice things.
    I'm not sure if you've noticed, but RAND AND MASSIE have been allying themselves with Trump and defending him in the media, so I guess they are traitors to freedom according to you?

    Sorry if I don't accept George Soros propaganda at face value.. I never defended our foreign policy, I'm just questioning these specific results.

    I supported Rand until he dropped out, and I guarantee I've done more for Rand than you have.

    Maybe instead of people like me it's people who would rather have candidates, nay, criminals like Hillary and bring in millions of people, 80% of whom prefer "bigger government" compared to less than 50% of the current population and we can really start the liberty train
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  26. #82
    I really haven't seen trump do anything that's actually going to affect immigration numbers significantly. He's arrested a bunch of managers at 7-Elevens but I don't think that's going to do it.

    He's ripped the arms and legs off a bunch of little boys and girls though. That seems to have increased very significantly.
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    I really haven't seen trump do anything that's actually going to affect immigration numbers significantly. He's arrested a bunch of managers at 7-Elevens but I don't think that's going to do it.

    He's ripped the arms and legs off a bunch of little boys and girls though. That seems to have increased very significantly.

    Hey, but they're the best drone strikes. The best. And the greatest murders and maimings of innocent women and children. The greatest.

    Ron Paul solution: We marched in, we can just march out.

    Trump solution: MOAR drone strikes.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I'm not sure if you've noticed, but RAND AND MASSIE have been allying themselves with Trump and defending him in the media, so I guess they are traitors to freedom according to you?
    Have you noticed though, that when when they do align themselves with him it is to leverage in favor of liberty? I haven't seen them defend his foreign policy moves with the exception of foreign aid to Pakistan. When Trump is right on something then great, but when he's wrong he's wrong. We ought to call a spade a spade and not make excuses for the same foreign policy we've always opposed.

    Drone strikes of civilians is wrong under Bush, Obama And Trump. All the same, the fact that we don't know the exact number of innocents makes it more appalling not less.
    Last edited by William Tell; 02-02-2018 at 12:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Have you noticed though, that when when they do align themselves with him it is to leverage in favor of liberty? I haven't seen them defend his foreign policy moves with the exception of foreign aid to Pakistan. When Trump is right on something then great, but when he's wrong he's wrong. We ought to call a spade a spade and not make excuses for the same foreign policy we've always opposed.

    Drone strikes of civilians is wrong under Bush, Obama And Trump. All the same, the fact that we don't know the exact number of innocents makes it more appalling not less.
    You should read my entire post instead of cherry picking. I said right after that I've never defended Trump's foreign policy, I'm saying that Airwars could be lying about the results. There is a huge difference.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You should read my entire post instead of cherry picking. I said right after that I've never defended Trump's foreign policy, I'm saying that Airwars could be lying about the results. There is a huge difference.
    I did read your post. I don't take the time to respond to every point I agree with. The numbers we heard about Bush and Obama could be incorrect too. What difference does it make? That's all speculation of leftist anti war sites vs NeoCon warmonger sites. Either way the policies that are causing innocents to die are continuing, unless you have evidence otherwise.

    I don't recall anyone here hand wringing over the exact numbers under about Bush and Obama.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  31. #87
    Anyone have video of Rand, Ron, or Massie questioning whether the death toll is not as high as we think it might be? Of course not, because either way they know our foreign policy still sucks, and needs to change.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I did read your post. I don't take the time to respond to every point I agree with. The numbers we heard about Bush and Obama could be incorrect too. What difference does it make? That's all speculation of leftist anti war sites vs NeoCon warmonger sites. Either way the policies that are causing innocents to die are continuing, unless you have evidence otherwise.

    I don't recall anyone here hand wringing over the exact numbers under about Bush and Obama.
    Did you read the thread title by any chance? That is the entire subject of the thread.. I didn't post the thread, I'm just responding.

    The reason it is important is because of all of the damage Hillary Clinton would have done to our country, and she would have continued our atrocious foreign policy.

    Rand has helped pass a lot of positive legislation through Trump that he would not have been able to do otherwise. Me and specs and probably almost everybody here are getting some significant raises in the form of tax breaks this year.

    While no civilians should die, it DOES matter if Trump kills 10 civilians or 10 million civilians. That is 9,999,990 more civilians dead of he killed ten million vs. 10. So if we are going to compare and contrast the damage done vs. the gains made, it's important to get it at least kinda right.

    I'm still very hopeful that Trump is going to be winding a lot of this stuff down in time, he is not a Bush or McCain 100 years in Afghanistan kinda guy. He is a have a goal, go in and achieve it, and get out kinda guy. That means we could see some very positive changes in foreign policy, even if we think there were much better paths that could have been taken.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Anyone have video of Rand, Ron, or Massie questioning whether the death toll is not as high as we think it might be? Of course not, because either way they know our foreign policy still sucks, and needs to change.
    It's because they look at the available information and draw conclusions from it. They don't begin with "Trump is Ron Paul on steroids and the Deep State is trying to bring down Trump because they don't like his _____" and subsequently dismiss all information casting a negative light on him, like what our RPF friends do. I really don't get what the deep state dislikes about Trump though. Foreign policy 100% on board. Goldman Sachs wrote the tax plan. So what exactly is Trump doing that they don't like? Some culture war BS? Is that all they got?

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Foreign policy 100% on board.
    Your number is inaccurate. 200% on board. He literally gave all military engagement decision-making to the Pentagon and CIA. We thought it was bad when congress absolved its authority?

    Is anybody really going to be surprised when the MIC is given authority over local police? Oh I know, it could never happen because Randal has him in his pocket.
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

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