1903 six HP steam engine powers modern off grid power system

[buenijo]

Short articles on the use of electricity by the Amish.

http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-use-electricity/
http://amishamerica.com/do-amish-use-batteries/

I was surprised to learn that many Amish often make use of electricity and Diesel engines. However, all references that I have seen show that all Amish are "off grid". Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

[Anti Federalist]

Lister diesel generator, new, 3000 watt, burns .3 GPH at full load.

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=L09912

Almost as good as steam, and with no computers or direct electronic injection, it should run just fine on vegetable oils.

In fact, the site offers a vegetable oil conversion, for an added cost.

[buenijo]

Anti Federalist, you might like this: http://www.powercubes.com/listers.html

[buenijo]

I've been looking into a continous ammonia absorption cycle as heat-powered chilled water system for air conditioning. The description and diagram provided at this link http://vintageservelrefrigerators.8k...owItWorks.html is the best I've seen for explaining how a continuous ammonia absorption system works. I believe that this approach has potential for providing air conditioning in an off grid setting. It's already being used to provide refrigeration for food, but I know of very few examples where it is used to cool a home. I believe the reason that we don't see it is primarily due to the widespread availability of cheap electricity. A commercial system suitable for cooling a home would be prohibitively expensive for most people. Therefore, most off gridders either live where the heat is not oppressive, they tough it out, or they use generators to power vapor compression systems (like window units). Right now I think it's practical to power a/c units with photovoltaics where the units are operated primarily as opportunity loads (i.e. while the PV array is producing) as this will prevent or lessen battery discharge. However, the prospect of an efficient chiller powered by a wood furnace is intriguing.

[Kelly.]

Lister diesel generator, new, 3000 watt, burns .3 GPH at full load.

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/...sp?page=L09912

Almost as good as steam, and with no computers or direct electronic injection, it should run just fine on vegetable oils.

In fact, the site offers a vegetable oil conversion, for an added cost.

i believe this is a lister knock off from india, not a genuine lister.
i know a family in my area that bought 2 of these listeroids as back up generators for their off grid home (homebrew wind and solar are primary)

i havent been up there to check it out, but the price from the site you listed is pretty close to what they paid through a guy in kansas city.
im thinking i would like to get one of these as a backup generator, or as an attempt to kick start my "off grid in the city" plan...

cool to see it can be run off of other gases, but i dont think i would go through the trouble of converting it.

[acptulsa]

I was surprised to learn that many Amish often make use of electricity and Diesel engines. However, all references that I have seen show that all Amish are "off grid". Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

Using a generator doesn't really make you 'on the grid'. And around here, at least, the only Amish who use them are the ones that run restaurants, or have other legitimate need for refrigeration.

They tend to have cars, too. Generally one optionless minivan per community.

Once upon a time, the railroads used steam powered air conditioners on passenger cars. The compressor was simply turned by a steam-fed piston. Hate to think how hard it would be to find one, but it really wouldn't be that hard to run a belt to a compressor...

[Luciconsort]

all this stuff is friggin awesome.... i used to think about all this stuff when i was a kid. years of slavery squashed those ideas... i'm starting to remember and i am VERY excited!

[buenijo]

acptulsa,

My comment should be read: Amish use electricity... however, they're still off grid. In other words, I agree with you. However, I now find myself having to qualify my position.

In my opinion, a system should not be considered as "off grid" if the only cost-effective and/or viable fuel available is provided through a highly capital intensive infrastructure (particularly one under central control, highly subsidized, and using unsustainable techniques). This should include not merely Diesel fuel, but low cost vegetable oils produced using modern farming techniques. Under these criteria, the only truly "off grid" systems that I can think of off hand include those fueled by biomass, direct solar energy, water, geothermal, wind, and biofuels produced under certain conditions.

BTW, I'm not aware of steam powered vapor compression systems being used on railroad passenger cars. However, some used steam directly from the boiler to power a steam jet pump system using water as the refrigerant. See description here: http://research.atsfry.com/Passenger/pass_ac.htm. I discussed this system in another post in this thread. I think this system is viable for providing air conditioning in an off grid setting, but it's difficult to get high efficiency. Absorption/adsorption systems are also possible candidates. NOTE: Powering a mechanical compressor directly with a steam engine would avoid a lot of energy conversion losses in the alternator and compressor motor, and can be practical if the steam engine has good efficiency.

NOTE: The link above seems to be dead. Here is a lecture on lithium bromide absorption and steam jet cooling. Both use water as the refrigerant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKdpDLy7CLg

[buenijo]

Hi Kelly. Yes, I think it's a "Listeroid" too. Listers are no longer manufactured. By all accounts the quality of the Listeroids is dubious. BTW, I wouldn't convert it either. However, consider this: http://www.arrowengine.com/products/...r/K_Series.php. These are designed to be fueled "on a variety of low BTU gases; natural gas, methane, butane or propane." I see no reason why a good wood gasifier cannot be used to fuel these engines without modification. A better choice is probably a Honda engine as they are readily available and very reliable.

[newyearsrevolution08]

this is the sort of stuff that keeps me up at night LOL

I want a self sufficient medical marijuana grow under my belt before I die.

[buenijo]

Crosley Icey Ball http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html A portable intermittent ammonia absorption system that was actually marketed and sold to provide refrigeration for food in American homes.

[Anti Federalist]

From the above ^^^ (great post BTW) plans to build a home made IcyBall

http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/H...irections.html

[buenijo]

Here's another good site that I just stumbled on: http://digital.lib.lehigh.edu/eb/supp/3646/index.pdf. This table lists the saturation conditions for aqua ammonia solutions from 0% to 100% ammonia.

ADDENDUM: An ammonia absorption unit can use a fairly low temperature heat source under some conditions. First, it should be an air conditioning application with a fairly high evaporator temperature on the order of 40-45F. Next, the absorber and condenser temperatures must be driven down as low as possible. This could be done in most settings by using water cooling combined with a low cooling rate. This is also good for optimal dehumidification (that is, operating a unit for long periods at low cooling but with a sufficiently low temperature evaporator). Under these conditions steam at atmospheric pressure can work well as a heat source - so the exhaust from a steam engine could be used without resorting to high engine back pressure to take the steam temperature up.

[buenijo]

===========

[Anti Federalist]

///

[buenijo]

I was checking out that "Icy Ball" again. What a simple design it is. AntiFederalist pointed out the home made version here: http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/H...irections.html. See diagram here:



The liquid check valve seems to be the heart of the system, and it appears to be very simple. I did a quick check for propane tanks that might serve this purpose and came across this: http://www.campingworld.com/shopping...b-1-gal-/56052. This appears to be a standard model. What I like about it is the fairly large threaded port right in the center of the top of the tank. A section of steel pipe could be threaded to fit and sealed with teflon tape. The internals of the liquid check valve could be designed to be integral with this pipe section with the entire unit just threaded right in. The rest of the system is straightforward.

Here is a source for 29% ammonium hydroxide: http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/...lon--p670.html

[buenijo]

Hello all. I found a great well pump: http://www.simplepump.com/

[buenijo]

Good article on off grid living: http://production-images.webapeel.co...mp.Article.pdf. This describes a fairly versatile system with wind turbine, solar array, back up generator, wood furnace, propane appliances, and a large battery bank. I think the article provides a good discussion of the basics. This is an impressive system. Although, there are a few aspects that I find less than optimal. First, by my standards they should not be considered as totally "off grid" if they're using propane and a conventional back up generator. Second, that battery bank is rather large.

[anaconda]

I am very envious.

[TruckinMike]

Just sharing my thoughts. I'm convinced that a small scale steam system powered by biomass is ideal for providing basic electricity, water distillation, and heat in an off grid setting. However, air conditioning remains a problem. So, I sat down to think a little more seriously about the viability of off grid air conditioning. My knowledge is limited, but I think I have enough understanding to make a case for the following:
1. The continuous ammonia absorption system is the best candidate
2. A pump is required to achieve high performance (*)
3. The system must see relatively high temperatures and pressures for high performance... so, it should be fired by a furnace directly ...

Instead of direct fire furnace how about building a heat exchanger* with hot oil to heat the Ammonia solution. This way fine control is possible. Heating transformer oil to around 500 - 600 degrees can be easily done with a solar trough. ( and at atmospheric pressure = safe)

* I read the previous post on heat exchanger materials. Solution - build a high surface area heat exchanger. --

Note: Heating oil instead of water gives you much greater flexibility in your off-grid energy design. All you need is a multi-thousand gallon insulated tank to store your superheated oil. -- ready at a moments notice for home heating, water heating, steam conversion for steam electrical generator, ....And yes, for heating your ammonia absorption system as well.

Just a thought.

[buenijo]

Instead of direct fire furnace how about building a heat exchanger* with hot oil to heat the Ammonia solution. This way fine control is possible. Heating transformer oil to around 500 - 600 degrees can be easily done with a solar trough. ( and at atmospheric pressure = safe)

* I read the previous post on heat exchanger materials. Solution - build a high surface area heat exchanger. --

Note: Heating oil instead of water gives you much greater flexibility in your off-grid energy design. All you need is a multi-thousand gallon insulated tank to store your superheated oil. -- ready at a moments notice for home heating, water heating, steam conversion for steam electrical generator, ....And yes, for heating your ammonia absorption system as well.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the input. I have considered thermal oil. In fact, solar heated thermal oil was the first energy source I considered to power a small scale steam system. There are advantages, but the details required of such a system have led me to avoid it.

[Anti Federalist]

///

[eduardo89]

I was just watching a British tv series called Grand Designs where a couple restores a ruined mine engine house in Cornwall.



The amazing thing is it still has an intact smokestack which got me thinking that a steam engine for power and heat would be amazing in that building, especially given the building's history.

[Anti Federalist]

///

[Kelly.]

dear buenijo,
please come back, many are interested in what you may be doing

[speciallyblend]

http://www.hojomotor.com/?hop=29volt can anyone tell me anything about this??? hojomotor?? waste of time??

[eduardo89]

http://www.hojomotor.com/?hop=29volt can anyone tell me anything about this??? hojomotor?? waste of time??

Probably. Anything that says it produces "free, clean, safe and unlimited electricity" so easy to build and with parts you can cheaply buy at the local hardware store is probably a scam.

[pcosmar]

http://www.hojomotor.com/?hop=29volt can anyone tell me anything about this??? hojomotor?? waste of time??

Waste of time.
Perpetual motion does not work due to the current Laws of Physics. (entropy)
You do not and never will get something for nothing.

[amy31416]

Waste of time.
Perpetual motion does not work due to the current Laws of Physics. (entropy)
You do not and never will get something for nothing.

Heh. I remember when we used to get people posting that scammy crap on the forums all the time. Some people believed it too...I think my comment on it was something along the lines of: Congratulations. You've managed to not only produce energy, but solved the most confounding metaphysical question of how the universe came into existence--all for $79.95!

I think I went into a bit more detail about energy and matter, but you get the idea.

[speciallyblend]

Heh. I remember when we used to get people posting that scammy crap on the forums all the time. Some people believed it too...I think my comment on it was something along the lines of: Congratulations. You've managed to not only produce energy, but solved the most confounding metaphysical question of how the universe came into existence--all for $79.95!

I think I went into a bit more detail about energy and matter, but you get the idea.

i figured it was a scam. I just thought i would see what rpf had to say about it thanks now back to steam!!