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Thread: The Official J.R.R. Tolkien Thread

  1. #1

    The Official J.R.R. Tolkien Thread

    I started in on my LOTR kick again in anticipation of 'The Hobbit' film coming out this December, and started rereading The Hobbit, and intend to reread The Lord of The Rings after that.



    Is anyone else getting pumped up?
    I hate to get too excited because, imo, Jackson took too many liberties with the plot in his film adaptation of LOTR, and I really disliked the films. I hope he does a better job with The Hobbit.

    Are there any other Tolkien fans out there on RPF? I've read pretty much everything he wrote (published in his lifetime or posthumously) except his translations of other works.
    Last edited by tfurrh; 04-09-2012 at 10:50 AM.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate



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  3. #2
    I've never made it through The Silmarilion - got through the first chapter and realized that if I wanted to read Scripture, I'd read Scripture.

    I really liked Farmer Giles of Ham.

    I watched Fellowship and swore I would never watch anything by Peter Jackson again. I have never seen the other two films and have precisely, definitely, inescapably, unerringly, ZERO intention of seeing The Hobbit.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  4. #3
    While I haven't read his writings, I watched The Lord of the Rings. I enjoy that series. My friend has read a lot of his stuff. She introduced me to his work at The Eagle and the Child when we went to Oxford.

    Tolkien was a very interesting man.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    I hate to get too excited because, imo, Jackson took too many liberties with the plot in his film adaptation of LOTR, and I really disliked the films. I hope he does a better job with The Hobbit.
    Really? I thought he did a rather good job for condensing three books into six hours. If it had been done as an extended T.V. series I could see it coming closer to the books yet given the time constraints I thought it a rather good adaption.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I've never made it through The Silmarilion - got through the first chapter and realized that if I wanted to read Scripture, I'd read Scripture.
    Yeah, about a third of the way into The Silmarillion, it kind of morphs from an Old Testament tone to a more familiar 'Tolkienish' tone. It's my favorite of his works, especially of his works that cover Middle-Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I really liked Farmer Giles of Ham.
    I liked it too. It's really kind of underrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I watched Fellowship and swore I would never watch anything by Peter Jackson again. I have never seen the other two films and have precisely, definitely, inescapably, unerringly, ZERO intention of seeing The Hobbit.
    I agree, they were awful. I think visually, everything was great (that's about all I can say in favor of the films), and I guess that's why I get my hopes up.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Really? I thought he did a rather good job for condensing three books into six hours. If it had been done as an extended T.V. series I could see it coming closer to the books yet given the time constraints I thought it a rather good adaption.
    Yeah, I really wasn't expecting him to get it perfect, and I can understand maybe leaving a few things out and condensing things. But to leave out things in order to ADD completely bogus stuff that didn't happen really annoyed me. The height of that annoyance was the Elves at Helm's Deep.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  8. #7
    This is an interesting J.R.R. Tolkien quote,
    Anarchism
    In a 1943 letter to his son Christopher, Tolkien wrote:
    “My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning the abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs)—or to 'unconstitutional' Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate! If we could get back to personal names, it would do a lot of good. Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so to refer to people.”

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    Yeah, I really wasn't expecting him to get it perfect, and I can understand maybe leaving a few things out and condensing things. But to leave out things in order to ADD completely bogus stuff that didn't happen really annoyed me. The height of that annoyance was the Elves at Helm's Deep.
    I was turned off as soon as I heard that they didn't cast Max von Sydow as Gandalf. How did they miss that?
    I think the thing I appreciated least about Fellowship was how Jackson basically made a story about each particular character. It's not how the book is - the book is unequivocally a story about Frodo, and diverges only upon the breaking of the fellowship, and then becomes two main stories, with groups of hobbits in each story.
    Injecting all that crap about Aragorn and Liv Tyler from the start draws focus away from the main characters.

    Even Bakshi got that part right: it's a story about hobbits, and the thing that makes it interesting is the fact that it's a bunch of nobodys who generally don't want to be involved, don't seem like they have the skills to be involved, and yet play pivotal roles.

    The whole story fits in with Tolkien's anarchism for that reason. He valued calm, undirected country living like in The Shire, and saw ability in those who valued that sort of life to deal with gigantic problems that seem like they're out of their purview.

    Focusing on the King from the get-go completely misses the point.
    If they had shaved all of the introductory crap and character development that didn't belong in Fellowship, they could have spent 5-7 minutes on Tom Bombadil.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  11. #9


    eerie dwarf music :P

    Yeah its cheesy,but I liked watching this animation when I was a kid. I like the unique and eerie style of animation from the late 70s.
    Authors/artists like J.R.R Tolkien give us something to at least enjoy other than this crappy world.
    Last edited by CaptainAmerica; 04-09-2012 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainAmerica View Post
    Yeah its cheesy,but I liked watching this animation when I was a kid. I like the unique and eerie style of animation from the late 70s.
    Authors/artists like J.R.R Tolkien give us something to at least enjoy other than this crappy world.
    I couldn't agree more. I love that film and mainly for the soundtrack.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  13. #11
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    I thought the LoTR movies were good but hate messing up my mental images of the world and characters. I'm not sure if I will watch The Hobbit.

  14. #12
    Check out (Jackson's) Gimli's beard, and the other dwarves at the Council of Elrond, and even the 7 Dwarfs Lords in Jackson's prologue.







    Those are some nice beards.

    Now, Tolkien provides a physical description for each dwarf in The Hobbit....looks like Peter Jackson has taken liberties again



    Thorin Oakenshield (front & center) is the oldest of all the the dwarves, and has a long grey beard. Here he looks young and clean-cut?
    Kili and Fili (second to far left & far right) have like 3-day beards in the Jackson's picture.?
    Most of these beards are a joke. Most of the dwarves tucked their beards into their belt.
    Last edited by tfurrh; 04-09-2012 at 02:45 PM.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    Check out (Jackson's) Gimli's beard, and the other dwarves at the Council of Elrond, and even the 7 Dwarfs Lords in Jackson's prologue.







    Those are some nice beards.

    Now, Tolkien provides a physical description for each dwarf in The Hobbit....looks like Peter Jackson is taken liberties again



    Thorin Oakenshield (front & center) is the oldest of all the the dwarves, and has a long grey beard. Here he looks young and clean-cut?
    Kili and Fili (second to far left & far right) have like 3-day beards in the Jackson's picture.?
    Most of these beards are a joke. Most of the dwarves tucked their beards into their belt.
    It did bother me at first that Peter Jackson didn't keep consistent with the prologue of Lord of the Rings or the book, but I am alright with the change of the dwarves appearances because Jackson at least kept the atmosphere and characterizations accurate from what I see in the trailer for the Hobbit.From what I understand Jackson had to make the dwarfs definable from one another otherwise you end up with a big problem for audiences that cannot identify each character from another character.

    with that all said, I think this is the best concept for a dwarf in the Hobbit
    Last edited by CaptainAmerica; 04-09-2012 at 02:03 PM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainAmerica View Post
    It did bother me at first that Peter Jackson didn't keep consistent with the prologue of Lord of the Rings or the book, but I am alright with the change of the dwarves appearances because Jackson at least kept the atmosphere and characterizations accurate from what I see in the trailer for the Hobbit.From what I understand Jackson had to make the dwarfs definable from one another otherwise you end up with a big problem for audiences that cannot identify each character from another character.

    with that all said, I think this is the best concept for a dwarf in the Hobbit
    Yeah, I can understand that reasoning, but at least make the main one accurate. I just don't see why Hollywood has to have a prettyboy be the tough guy nowadays. I'd much rather Thorin look like the dwarf in your picture than look like this:



    I mean...gimme a badass dwarf as the leader of Thorin & Co, not a pretty-man-beard-boy.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  17. #15
    ^^^ NFW are those pictures of Thorin Oakenshield. I am dissappoint.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    Yeah, I can understand that reasoning, but at least make the main one accurate. I just don't see why Hollywood has to have a prettyboy be the tough guy nowadays. I'd much rather Thorin look like the dwarf in your picture than look like this:



    I mean...gimme a badass dwarf as the leader of Thorin & Co, not a pretty-man-beard-boy.
    hmm yeah I know what you mean. My feeling is that the studio probably told Jackson he had to make a toy line that would sell and that the actors would reach across the demographic of viewers ,and Im sure they know the statistics of what gimli toys and posters sold during the LOTR movie releases. Studios have a greedy way of making movies, but in the end I think Peter Jackson has done as much as he could to prevent the movie from turning into a cash cow as New Line obviously attempted to do by firing him in the first place.Im just glad hes directing it.Look at what SONY did to Sam Raimi for instance, the producers forced Sam to make spiderman 3 the way that the studio and producers wanted it to sell more toys and it ended up flopping big time.



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  20. #17

  21. #18
    Was it Kinky Friedman who wrote the book the Wussification of America? lol. I mean, I'd take my chances with this guy (Richard Armitage/Thorin Oakenshield):



    But I don't think I'd be messing with John Rhys-Davies (Gimli)



    But I guess that's why they call it Hollywood.
    Last edited by tfurrh; 04-09-2012 at 02:39 PM.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  22. #19

  23. #20
    Just finished The Hobbit last night. I had forgotten all about the Arkenstone. Total speculation, but does anyone else think the Arkenstone may be a Silmaril?
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    There is literally not one single thing in that photo which doesn't take my aforementioned opinion, weld a 1" rebar cage around it, cast it in 70 cubic yards of concrete, and drop it in the Mariana Trench.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    I couldn't agree more. I love that film and mainly for the soundtrack.
    Like this.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  26. #23
    I recently starting rereading LOTR for the first time in at least eight years. It's been delightful; almost as good as reading them for the first time. I had forgotten that Elrond originally wanted two elf-lords to go in the place of Merry and Pippin. Can you imagine Glorfindel in the place of Peregrin Took? The Fellowship would have had a much smoother journey if they had two of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth along for the ride, but I guess the hobbits were necessary for the Scourge of the Shire upon their return.
    Last edited by Stupified; 04-12-2012 at 07:55 PM.
    I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all.
    -Thomas Jefferson

  27. #24
    I've read The Hobbit, and have all three LOTR books, and have seen all the movies.

    I am hearing that Jackson is sticking closer to the book this time than he did with the other three movies.
    Welcome to the R3VOLUTION!



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    I hate to get too excited because, imo, Jackson took too many liberties with the plot in his film adaptation of LOTR, and I really disliked the films. I hope he does a better job with The Hobbit.
    The LOTR films started out OK but got progressively worse as Jackson took more & more liberties & shoe-horned his own crap into the story in place of Tolkien's. That was unforgivable.

    I wasn't expecting a perfect reproduction of the books - that would be impossible, given the differences between the media involved (written word vs. cinema).

    But Jackson unnecessarily monkeyed with fundamental aspects of the story for no good reason. Exhibit #1 is the character of Faramir. What Jackson did to Faramir in the movie is disgusting & unforgivable.

    In the books, Faramir is a very wise & noble figure (he is, in fact the most heroic of all the human characters except Aragorn). He understands the lethal allure of the One Ring & the corrupting power it embodies. He aids Frodo's quest to destroy the Ring, knowing full well that his father Denethor, the Steward of Gondor, will be *furious* with him for allowing the Ring to escape his grasp. But in the movie, Faramir is a neurotic who intends to frog-march Frodo to Minas Tirith with the Ring in order to win his daddy's approval (until Sam persuades him otherwise with a sappy speech).

    It's absolutely disgusting. There was no excuse for that whatsoever. The only explanation I can come up with is that Jackson was deliberately trying to make every human character (except Aragorn) look like a fool, a cad or a villain. There are a number of other scenes that reinforce this interpretation (such as the disgusting scenes of Denethor's noisy lip-smacking while eating interspliced with scenes of Faramir & his men fleeing Osgiliath for their lives).

    And then there's one of the saddest, most moving scenes in the book: when Smeagol finds Frodo & Sam asleep in a cave while they are crossing the mountains into Mordor. He touches Frodo gently and Tolkien's description of Smeagol & what it implies is very moving. Then Sam wakes up & berates Smeagol - this is the last straw: this is when Smeagol wholly becomes Gollum & decides to betray Frodo to Shelob. This scene is completely perveted by Jackson, who replaced it in the movie with some irrelevant nonsense in which Gollum, upon finding Frodo & Sam asleep, frames Sam for eating their remaining food in a petty attempt to win favor with Frodo & get Sam into trouble. Again, it's disgusting. There's no good reason for Jackson to have done this.

    Changing events, dialog or other details is one thing. Sometimes that sort of thing is necessary & even good. But Jackson did more than that. He fundamentally altered characters & their motivations in a way that was completely at odds with Tolkien's portrayal, and he apparently did so in order to foist his own agenda or preferred interpretations into Tolkien's story.
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  30. #26
    But had Merry not gone he would not have been present to assist Eowyn in killing some Sorcerer King. That being said I live in ME as much as possible. Beleg Cuthalion is the $#@!! Yeah, the elves at helms deep were just tooooooooo much. If Jackson wanted to take liberties, he could have taken them by elaborating on the wars progress in the Iron Hills and Lonely Mountain....
    Last edited by bolil; 04-16-2012 at 02:06 PM.
    Best of luck in life.

  31. #27
    Just found out that the film is going to be 3-D. To me, that's another disappointment.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  32. #28

  33. #29
    I enjoyed the books. Didn't get into the "Hobbit" in High School when it was presented, but read it several years later. and all the rest of them.
    Saw the animated versions and then the LOTR movies. I enjoyed them, and though they did pretty well,, considering the vivid complexity of the books.

    It's entertainment. (possibly why I enjoy playing WoW)
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  34. #30
    Thomas Covenant can kick Frodo's ass
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