Yes Rand Paul, there is an emergency at our border!

[johnwk]

And what exactly is an "open border policy?" Being against Trump's unconstitutional power grab? Not supporting the idea that just because Trump has fallen flat on a phony political promise that he never intended to keep anyway that this somehow translates into an emergency? Do you even understand Trump's "wall fence" proposal? It's not eve going to go across the entire border! And much of it will be "vehicle barriers" that anybody can walk across. The "migrant horde" that everyone was freaking out about walked right up to the existing wall! What's causing mass migration from Central America is the United States destabilizing Central American countries. And guess what Trump is doing right now in Venezuela? He is destabilizing it for the oil! Good grief!

What unconstitutional power grab are you talking about?


In addition, do you not consider tens of thousands of poverty stricken, poorly educated, low skilled foreigners flooding across the southern border of the United States without permission and unchecked an emergency?


Do you have any idea of the devastating social and economic impact which illegal border crossings is having upon the citizens of the United States?


Do you allow people to enter your home without your permission?


Do you really believe uncontrolled immigration into the United States, which allows undesirable individuals into the United States, advances the general welfare of the United States?


JWK

It was February of 2019 when an ongoing invasion of America’s borders swelled to tens of thousands a month, not a shot was fired to defend the borders of the United States, and America’s domestic enemies, socialists, communists and anarchists in Congress, pushed forward with their attempt to embrace the invasion in hopes of conquering a prosperous and freedom loving people.

[PAF]

Right. But also, if they were here legally, they would still be guilty of them, which is why we need to keep the laws in place that make it illegal for them to be here.

You recognize that they aren't here to learn or support the site mission, right? They're here to spread their collective fear. Honest debate isn't part of the equation.

It couldn't be made more obvious when I told Swordy that Sadie made fantastic food at her restaurant and he followed up with there are other restaurants that I can go to LOL

[Superfluous Man]

Do you really believe uncontrolled immigration into the United States, which allows undesirable individuals into the United States, advances the general welfare of the United States?

Notice the word you chose there: "undesirable."

Desirability is subjective. Each individual has different desires. A central planning government can't manage the distribution of all the different things that different individuals desire in different ways. Only the free market can do that, and does very successfully everywhere that it is permitted to.

You may consider it undesirable for someone to be on your property. Meanwhile, I may consider it desirable for them to be on mine, perhaps as an employee, or a tenant, or a purchaser of it, or any other of the countless possibilities that are as individualized as we are.

It's not your place to impose your desires on me, or me to impose mine on you. And all our desires are most fully met (i.e. the general welfare is advanced) within the marketplace when we just let one another engage in commerce with other individuals according to our own choosing.

ETA: Also, you hit on another fatal flaw of your own position. Immigration restriction does not promote the general welfare. It plainly works against the welfare of those within our population who benefit from the presence of the immigrants whom immigration restriction excludes from America. Even if it did advance the welfare of some specific Americans, to the detriment of others, this would not constitute advancement of the general welfare. And since it does not promote the general welfare, it falls outside the scope of the powers delegated to Congress in Article I, Section 8.

[Stratovarious]

@Stratovarious , perhaps you missed this:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ight=ben+swann

Wut?

[Stratovarious]

Can't felonies, rapes, and terrorism, all be banned, treated as crimes in their own rights, and punished with appropriate losses of freedoms, without having to embed them into laws about immigration, which are used against innocent people who are guilty of none of those things?

Why would you want to deprive someone of their Freedom?
Open Borders......lmao

[jmdrake]

It's just fear...

Open border idiots, are afraid Diseased Felons, rapists, and terrorists might be encumbered
at the border.
Those are the most powerful tools of Globalist Socialists, scare idiots into
fearing that these criminals won't be allowed to turn America into the cesspool they
built and plan to leave behind.

I see that you responded to CaptUSA's response to my question but you never answered my question. What is your definition of an "open border policy?" Methinks you are building strawmen. And are you for increasing H1B Visas yes or no?

[Stratovarious]

WALL IDIOTS are afraid of anything .gov tells them to be afraid of.

And, yes, the most powerful tool of gov is fear- and Wall Idiots want America to remain the cesspool that was built especially for them to be locked into for the rest of their lives.

So much Freedom.

I'll bet herpes is just as much fun as listening to this esteemed fraternity of 'Freedom loving ' GLobalists.........

yee haa.........Open Borders, no laws , no one gonna come git your GLobalist Freedumbs'......

[CaptUSA]

Sharing again... Because "Open Borders - boogity boogity!!"

[Stratovarious]

I see that you responded to CaptUSA's response to my question but you never answered my question. What is your definition of an "open border policy?" Methinks you are building strawmen. And are you for increasing H1B Visas yes or no?

Gee wut is 'Open BoRders' mean?
I mean , what does it means' ?

[Superfluous Man]

Why would you want to deprive someone of their Freedom?

As a punishment for something they did that violated someone else's rights, or to stop them when they're in the act of violating someone else's rights.

But when someone is doing something that doesn't violate anyone else's person or property, I shouldn't use violence to interfere, especially when the other parties they are interacting with in some act of commerce positively want to do so as well.

I don't support empowering the government to use force against people for victimless crimes, which truly are not crimes at all.

[Stratovarious]

As a punishment for something they did that violated someone else's rights, or to stop them when they're in the act of violating someone else's rights.

But when someone is doing something that doesn't violate anyone else's person or property, I shouldn't use violence to interfere, especially when the other parties they are interacting with in some act of commerce positively want to do so as well.

I don't support empowering the government to use force against people for victimless crimes, which truly are not crimes at all.

Illegal aliens are criminals.

[Superfluous Man]

Illegal aliens are criminals.

Violating immigration laws would fall under the phrase I just used of "victimless crimes."

It's only a crime in the sense of a violation of a law that human beings made up. It's not a genuine crime in the sense of something that harms someone else, violating natural law.

[jmdrake]

What unconstitutional power grab are you talking about?

Ask Rand Paul.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/sen-...cy-declaration

Ask Judge Andrew Napolitano.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judg...ould-worry-you

Seriously dude, quit being a dunce about this. It's one thing to say "Well I don't agree with Rand" but it's quite another to just blindly pretend there is no legitimate constitutional concern about what Trump is doing. The emergency power Trump is trying to invoke is in place for times when Congress does not have time to act. It's not a blank check for the president to override congressional power whenever he wants. For two years Trump had both houses of congress. What he put his political capital behind was not a wall but a tax cut. I'm fine with that because I think the tax cut was a great idea and the wall is a stupid publicity stunt to placate suckers who voted for him. Yeah I said it. Those who are counting on the wall are suckers! Even if Trump got every penny he was asking for by his own admission he would only build a partial extension of the already existing wall! Meanwhile Trump is destabilizing Venezuela which has already caused another refugee crisis in central America. And yet people like you can't figure out why border crossings are spiking when they had been going down. It's not hard to understand. It's not rocket science. Your boy Trump is causing the very "emergency" that you are clamoring to give him unconstitutional emergency powers to fix!

[johnwk]

You'll hear them say they're not against immigration - just illegal immigration. Until you press them on it.
You'll hear them say they're a drain on our government programs - but then they're still against it, even if absent those programs.
You'll hear them say they're going to vote for more government - but then you tell them that THEY want more government. They'll say we need create more government to prevent THEM from creating more government.
You'll hear them say the immigrants are bringing illegal drugs - but when we'd remove that incentive, they still don't want them.
Even if you removed every artificial incentive, they still don't want them to come - but they can't explain why - they just want you to be afraid.

Really, their arguments make no logical sense. They just want you to fear "other peoples" instead of focusing the blame on their government.

If they really believed any of their justifications and moralizations, they'd welcome these people when those justifications and moralizations were removed. But they still won't. They're collectivists to the core and the State is their god.

Them? They? Collectivists?


From you above comments, I take it you equate our forefathers and the United States Constitution with “collectivism” and something to recoil from. Of course, your thinking could be based upon inductive reasoning rather than deductive reasoning, and therefore your conclusions could all be false.


JWK


In every communist dictatorial oppressive country, like Cuba, the people are disarmed. Forewarned is forearmed.

[PAF]

As a punishment for something they did that violated someone else's rights, or to stop them when they're in the act of violating someone else's rights.

But when someone is doing something that doesn't violate anyone else's person or property, I shouldn't use violence to interfere, especially when the other parties they are interacting with in some act of commerce positively want to do so as well.

I don't support empowering the government to use force against people for victimless crimes, which truly are not crimes at all.

You know, I actually hesitated posting that Walter Block Liberty 101 video because I didn't want to give the impression that I was insulting anybody's intelligence.

What you just posted is fundamentally rudimentary but it's like talking to a brick with some.

[Superfluous Man]

Ask Rand Paul.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/sen-...cy-declaration

Ask Judge Andrew Napolitano.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judg...ould-worry-you

Seriously dude, quit being a dunce about this. It's one thing to say "Well I don't agree with Rand" but it's quite another to just blindly pretend there is no legitimate constitutional concern about what Trump is doing. The emergency power Trump is trying to invoke is in place for times when Congress does not have time to act. It's not a blank check for the president to override congressional power whenever he wants. For two years Trump had both houses of congress. What he put his political capital behind was not a wall but a tax cut. I'm fine with that because I think the tax cut was a great idea and the wall is a stupid publicity stunt to placate suckers who voted for him. Yeah I said it. Those who are counting on the wall are suckers! Even if Trump got every penny he was asking for by his own admission he would only build a partial extension of the already existing wall! Meanwhile Trump is destabilizing Venezuela which has already caused another refugee crisis in central America. And yet people like you can't figure out why border crossings are spiking when they had been going down. It's not hard to understand. It's not rocket science. Your boy Trump is causing the very "emergency" that you are clamoring to give him unconstitutional emergency powers to fix!

Also Ron Paul:
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/arch...-constitution/

And Justin Amash:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...constitutional

And Thomas Massie:
https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/26/t...p-border-wall/

[jmdrake]

Gee wut is 'Open BoRders' mean?
I mean , what does it means' ?

I'm not for the CIA bringing in terrorists. Does that mean I'm against open borders? I think that NAFTA, which Trump just renamed and re-ratified is a violation of U.S. sovereignty because it allows 4 out of 5 Mexican trucks to cross the border without being inspected. (So much for your freaking wall). Does that make me open borders? I support an increase in H1B visas which would allow more of the best and the brightest from around the world to come here to work after a vigorous screening process. Does that make me open borders? I am against the destabilizing of Central American countries like Honduras (thanks Hillary and Obama) or Venezuela (thanks Hillary, Obama and Trump). Does that make me open borders? Seriously dude, you and your ilk just keep throwing around "open borders" whenever someone opposes some policy you support without any rhyme or reason. Rand Paul came up with a plan to fund Trump's stupid wall and make Mexico pay for it! And yet rather than being thankful you want to raise the fake specter of "open borders."

[PAF]

Illegal aliens are criminals.

I can't find the post but Devil21 NAILED it.

"Illegals" are the freest on the land, they owe no allegiance... so on and so forth.

If anybody can find that and post it would be greatly appreciated.

[jmdrake]

Them? They? Collectivists?


From you above comments, I take it you equate our forefathers and the United States Constitution with “collectivism” and something to recoil from. Of course, your thinking could be based upon inductive reasoning rather than deductive reasoning, and therefore your conclusions could all be false.


JWK


In every communist dictatorial oppressive country, like Cuba, the people are disarmed. Forewarned is forearmed.

The founding fathers allowed President George Washington to go around the will of congress and build a border wall? Where did he build it?

[johnwk]

Ask Rand Paul.

Ask Judge Andrew Napolitano.

No. My question was, What unconstitutional power grab are you talking about?



Can you explain the charge in your own words?


JWK

Do you really want single payer government operated health-care? Move into public housing [the projects in East Harlem or the South Bronx], live there for a year, and then make your decision about government run healthcare.

[acptulsa]

Are these three pretending to be too stupid to talk with, or are they too stupid to talk with?

[jmdrake]

Also Ron Paul:
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/arch...-constitution/

And Justin Amash:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...constitutional

And Thomas Massie:
https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/26/t...p-border-wall/

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Superfluous Man again.

[Superfluous Man]

No. My question was, What unconstitutional power grab are you talking about?

You know exactly what he's probably talking about (although I'm sure there are numerous options available of unconstitutional power grabs of Trump's we could mention).

Here is a part of the Constitution that Trump blatantly tried to violate with his declaration of a national emergency as a pretext for funding a border wall with more funding than Congress appropriated for it:

No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law;

It is yet to be seen if Trump will succeed at this.

[jmdrake]

No. My question was, What unconstitutional power grab are you talking about?



Can you explain the charge in your own words?

*Sigh* Quit being obtuse. This WAS my own words. I will copy and paste them for you so that you will quit wasting my time with your childish games.

Seriously dude, quit being a dunce about this. It's one thing to say "Well I don't agree with Rand" but it's quite another to just blindly pretend there is no legitimate constitutional concern about what Trump is doing. The emergency power Trump is trying to invoke is in place for times when Congress does not have time to act. It's not a blank check for the president to override congressional power whenever he wants. For two years Trump had both houses of congress. What he put his political capital behind was not a wall but a tax cut. I'm fine with that because I think the tax cut was a great idea and the wall is a stupid publicity stunt to placate suckers who voted for him. Yeah I said it. Those who are counting on the wall are suckers! Even if Trump got every penny he was asking for by his own admission he would only build a partial extension of the already existing wall! Meanwhile Trump is destabilizing Venezuela which has already caused another refugee crisis in central America. And yet people like you can't figure out why border crossings are spiking when they had been going down. It's not hard to understand. It's not rocket science. Your boy Trump is causing the very "emergency" that you are clamoring to give him unconstitutional emergency powers to fix!

and again.

Seriously dude, quit being a dunce about this. It's one thing to say "Well I don't agree with Rand" but it's quite another to just blindly pretend there is no legitimate constitutional concern about what Trump is doing. The emergency power Trump is trying to invoke is in place for times when Congress does not have time to act. It's not a blank check for the president to override congressional power whenever he wants. For two years Trump had both houses of congress. What he put his political capital behind was not a wall but a tax cut. I'm fine with that because I think the tax cut was a great idea and the wall is a stupid publicity stunt to placate suckers who voted for him. Yeah I said it. Those who are counting on the wall are suckers! Even if Trump got every penny he was asking for by his own admission he would only build a partial extension of the already existing wall! Meanwhile Trump is destabilizing Venezuela which has already caused another refugee crisis in central America. And yet people like you can't figure out why border crossings are spiking when they had been going down. It's not hard to understand. It's not rocket science. Your boy Trump is causing the very "emergency" that you are clamoring to give him unconstitutional emergency powers to fix!

One more time.

Seriously dude, quit being a dunce about this. It's one thing to say "Well I don't agree with Rand" but it's quite another to just blindly pretend there is no legitimate constitutional concern about what Trump is doing. The emergency power Trump is trying to invoke is in place for times when Congress does not have time to act. It's not a blank check for the president to override congressional power whenever he wants. For two years Trump had both houses of congress. What he put his political capital behind was not a wall but a tax cut. I'm fine with that because I think the tax cut was a great idea and the wall is a stupid publicity stunt to placate suckers who voted for him. Yeah I said it. Those who are counting on the wall are suckers! Even if Trump got every penny he was asking for by his own admission he would only build a partial extension of the already existing wall! Meanwhile Trump is destabilizing Venezuela which has already caused another refugee crisis in central America. And yet people like you can't figure out why border crossings are spiking when they had been going down. It's not hard to understand. It's not rocket science. Your boy Trump is causing the very "emergency" that you are clamoring to give him unconstitutional emergency powers to fix!

[johnwk]

Them? They? Collectivists?


From you above comments, I take it you equate our forefathers and the United States Constitution with “collectivism” and something to recoil from. Of course, your thinking could be based upon inductive reasoning rather than deductive reasoning, and therefore your conclusions could all be false.


JWK


In every communist dictatorial oppressive country, like Cuba, the people are disarmed. Forewarned is forearmed.

The founding fathers allowed President George Washington to go around the will of congress and build a border wall? Where did he build it?

Hmmmm. Bait and switch. Not a very sincere way to respond my post.



JWK




"If the Constitution was ratified under the belief, sedulously propagated on all sides that such protection was afforded, would it not now be a fraud upon the whole people to give a different construction to its powers?"___ Justice Story

[jmdrake]

Hmmmm. Bait and switch. Not a very sincere way to respond my post.



JWK




"If the Constitution was ratified under the belief, sedulously propagated on all sides that such protection was afforded, would it not now be a fraud upon the whole people to give a different construction to its powers?"___ Justice Story

Quit lying. This is what you said.

I take it you equate our forefathers and the United States Constitution with “collectivism” and something to recoil from.

[johnwk]

*Sigh* Quit being obtuse. This WAS my own words. I will copy and paste them for you so that you will quit wasting my time with your childish games.

So, you can't give an explanation in your own words and prefer to post an adolescent insult?






JWK

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez claims to be an advocate of hard working people living in the Bronx. If that is so, why is she not advocating an end to the unconstitutional “Temporary Victory Tax” of 1943, which began federal confiscation of the bread which working people have earned by the sweat of their labor?

[johnwk]

Quit lying. This is what you said.

I take it you equate our forefathers and the United States Constitution with “collectivism” and something to recoil from.

And I continued:


Of course, your thinking could be based upon inductive reasoning rather than deductive reasoning, and therefore your conclusions could all be false.


I lied about nothing. Why do you accuse me of lying?

JWK

Make no mistake. There is a very real war taking place on American soil and it is being won by socialists, communists and anarchists, who have successfully obstructed the American People from securing the border of their country.

[Stratovarious]

Violating immigration laws would fall under the phrase I just used of "victimless crimes."

It's only a crime in the sense of a violation of a law that human beings made up. It's not a genuine crime in the sense of something that harms someone else, violating natural law.

America and Americans are the victims.

[Stratovarious]

I'm not for the CIA bringing in terrorists. Does that mean I'm against open borders? I think that NAFTA, which Trump just renamed and re-ratified is a violation of U.S. sovereignty because it allows 4 out of 5 Mexican trucks to cross the border without being inspected. (So much for your freaking wall). Does that make me open borders? I support an increase in H1B visas which would allow more of the best and the brightest from around the world to come here to work after a vigorous screening process. Does that make me open borders? I am against the destabilizing of Central American countries like Honduras (thanks Hillary and Obama) or Venezuela (thanks Hillary, Obama and Trump). Does that make me open borders? Seriously dude, you and your ilk just keep throwing around "open borders" whenever someone opposes some policy you support without any rhyme or reason. Rand Paul came up with a plan to fund Trump's stupid wall and make Mexico pay for it! And yet rather than being thankful you want to raise the fake specter of "open borders."

Start a thread , I'll join you.