"In The Footsteps Of Rome" - Is Renewal Possible?

[natsuxdragoneel]

Once the shared memories of these values are lost, the Empire ceases to exist; there is nothing left to reform or renew.
Is renewal / recovery from systemic decline possible? The history of the Roman Empire is a potentially insightful place to start looking for answers. As long-time readers know, I've been studying both the Western and Eastern (Byzantine) Roman Empires over the past few years.
Both Western and Eastern Roman Empires faced existential crises that very nearly dissolved the empires hundreds of years before their terminal declines. The Western Roman Empire, beset by the overlapping crises of invasion, civil war, plague and economic upheaval, nearly collapsed in the third century C.E. (Christian Era, what was previously A.D.) -- 235 to 284 C.E., fully two hundred years before its final dissolution in the fifth century (circa 476 C.E.).
Meanwhile, the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) faced similar crises in the seventh and eighth centuries, as its capital of Constantinople was besieged by the Persians in 626 C.E. and the Arab caliphate in 674 C.E. and again in 717 C.E. The invasions which preceded the sieges stripped the empire of wealthy territories and the income those lands produced.
In both cases, the Empire not only survived but recovered a substantial measure of its former resilience and stability.Fortune delivered strong leadership at the critical moment: leadership that was able to protect itself from petty, self-aggrandizing domestic rivals, force the reorganization of failed, self-serving bureaucracies, inspire the populace to make the necessary sacrifices for the common good, win decisive military victories that ended the threat of invasion, and generate a moral claim to leadership via personal rectitude and/or participation in a religious revival.
Absent such strong, stable, legitimate leadership, neither empire would have survived their existential crisis.
But strong leadership alone isn't enough. A strong military leader can win battles, and a strong political leader can aggregate power, but these are merely steps to the ultimate goal of strong leadership, which is to reform the Imperial system so it once again serves the needs of the entire Empire rather than just the greed of the few at the top of the wealth-power pyramid.
The system itself must still hold the potential to be reformed. If the systems of communication, trade, control and finance have all eroded beyond the point of no return, then the victories of a strong leader die with that leader.
The army must still have the means to recruit new legions, the Treasury must still have a system to collect tax revenues, the central leadership must have a way to communicate with far-flung commanders and local leaders, and so on.
The collective shared memory of imperial cohesion and competence must still exist in the general populace. Any political group identity, be it tribe, village, nation or empire, is anchored by a shared awareness of membership, i.e. the rights and responsibilities of belonging, and a collective memory of the group / empire as a functioning whole that served the many and not just the few.
Once the shared memory of the Empire as a functioning whole is lost, the entire notion of empire is lost.
The leadership in these existential crises of the third century C.E. in the West and the eighth century in the East could still draw upon a collective memory of a functioning empire. Residents had not yet lost the shared memory of serving in the army, of paying taxes, of stable trade protected by the Empire, of a stable Imperial currency, and so on.
Once the shared memories of these values are lost, the Empire ceases to exist; there is nothing left to reform or renew.

We are far down the road to a system that serves the few at the expense of the many. The collective memory of a system that once served the common good is fading. Strong leadership can still wrest popular political power from the self-serving elites atop the wealth-power pyramid and wield this political power to reform the system so it serves the many instead of just the few, but the window for such reform /renewal is closing fast.
In another decade, a living system that served the common good rather than just the interests of a few will be as distant as the shattered monuments of ancient Rome.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...newal-possible

[oyarde]

Is renewel of a state like that possible ? No . You could never hold borders like that . Not even just modern day Europe . Borders could not be defended adequately to prevent invasion.

[Jamesiv1]

Eat toots, Brutes.

[phill4paul]

The collective shared memory of imperial cohesion and competence must still exist in the general populace. Any political group identity, be it tribe, village, nation or empire, is anchored by a shared awareness of membership, i.e. the rights and responsibilities of belonging, and a collective memory of the group / empire as a functioning whole that served the many and not just the few.
Once the shared memory of the Empire as a functioning whole is lost, the entire notion of empire is lost.

I can't disagree with this. Loss of shared memory of cohesion is the death knell of any tribe, village, nation or empire. The experiment in a Republic which recognized the laws of Nature and Natures God of it's citizens was a monumental change in the notion of how a government should conduct itself in all regards.
Yet, here we are. Can this experiment be saved? Doubtful at this point.

[Jamesiv1]

Ron Paul says Rome fell economically, the same way the American Empire will fall. i.e., the money system could no longer support the empire, and it collapsed beneath an overwhelming burden of debt and inflation.

Probably won't find that covered in the history books though.

As the banksters like to say, "This ain't our first rodeo."

[Swordsmyth]

I can't disagree with this. Loss of shared memory of cohesion is the death knell of any tribe, village, nation or empire. The experiment in a Republic which recognized the laws of Nature and Natures God of it's citizens was a monumental change in the notion of how a government should conduct itself in all regards.
Yet, here we are. Can this experiment be saved? Doubtful at this point.

Yet you want to let in an unlimited number of foreigners who don't share our memory of cohesion? Despite the fact that that was one of the major factors in the fall of Rome.

[phill4paul]

Yet you want to let in an unlimited number of foreigners who don't share our memory of cohesion? Despite the fact that that was one of the major factors in the fall of Rome.

There is no memory of cohesion now of the Republic long past. You're an example of it. What do I need to fear of an immigrant that simply wants a better life despite a lost Republican government that regulates and taxes every-single-thing and is willing to work for it, as opposed to a 'citizen' that wants more regulation and taxation to keep this individual from coming here?

[r3volution 3.0]

Yet you want to let in an unlimited number of foreigners who don't share our memory of cohesion? Despite the fact that that was one of the major factors in the fall of Rome.

Nah

Civil wars, overspending, irrational economic policies (all resulting ultimately from political instability) - not immigration.

By the time large numbers of non-Romanized peoples eventually invaded, the empire had already disintegrated in all but name.

[Swordsmyth]

There is no memory of cohesion now of the Republic long past. You're an example of it. What do I need to fear of an immigrant that simply wants a better life despite a lost Republican government that regulates and taxes every-single-thing and is willing to work for it, as opposed to a 'citizen' that wants more regulation and taxation to keep this individual from coming here?

There is far more memory of cohesion in this country than you believe.
Have you ever noticed the politics of other countries, particularly those that send us the most illegal immigrants. They are at the extreme bad end of our domestic politics or worse.
And I want less regulation and less taxes overall, I just think that immigration and border control is one of the few legitimate functions of government.

[Swordsmyth]

Nah

Civil wars, overspending, irrational economic policies (all resulting ultimately from political instability) - not immigration.

By the time large numbers of non-Romanized peoples eventually invaded, the empire had already disintegrated in all but name.

Not so, plus Rome conquered and absorbed willingly far too many barbarians in the lead up their decline, which achieved the same effect.

[phill4paul]

There is far more memory of cohesion in this country than you believe.
Have you ever noticed the politics of other countries, particularly those that send us the most illegal immigrants. They are at the extreme bad end of our domestic politics or worse.
And I want less regulation and less taxes overall, I just think that immigration and border control is one of the few legitimate functions of government.

Bull$#@!. This country has lost it's identity. This 'experimental' Republic has metastasized into a democracy. And it wasn't immigrants that swarmed the borders that did that. The foundations lies in full Citizens, Americunts, that believed the Fed. Gov. needed to do more for this and for that. In small increments freedom became slavery. People that wanted "less regulation and less taxes overall." except for....this. Because this is important to me and therefore we need more regulation and more taxes.
It sickens me.

[r3volution 3.0]

Not so, plus Rome conquered and absorbed willingly far too many barbarians in the lead up their decline, which achieved the same effect.

Would you give (a) a theoretical mechanism for how this happened, and (b) an specific example of that mechanism in action?

[Swordsmyth]

Would you give (a) a theoretical mechanism for how this happened, and (b) an specific example of that mechanism in action?

A: Rome conquers an area absorbing it's citizens into the empire, they spread un-Roman culture throughout the empire that leads to decadence and corruption.
B: Greece was conquered, the subsequent adoption of Greek values and culture culminated in the decline and fall of Rome.

[r3volution 3.0]

A: Rome conquers an area absorbing it's citizens into the empire, they spread un-Roman culture throughout the empire that leads to decadence and corruption.
B: Greece was conquered, the subsequent adoption of Greek values and culture culminated in the decline and fall of Rome.

If "fall of Rome" means the end of Roman political authority, would you agree that the immediate cause of that was the weakness of the Roman army, such that it simply lacked the strength to enforce the imperial will on the empire's subjects, or to defend territory from barbarian invasion?

[Swordsmyth]

If "fall of Rome" means the end of Roman political authority, would you agree that the immediate cause of that was the weakness of the Roman army, such that it simply lacked the strength to enforce the imperial will on the empire's subjects, or to defend territory from barbarian invasion?

Which was the end result of the decadence and corruption they picked up from their many conquered peoples.

[r3volution 3.0]

Which was the end result of the decadence and corruption they picked up from there many conquered peoples.

Alright, well that's what I was getting it.

Infection of Roman culture with non-Roman culture --> ...?... --> collapse of the roman army

Fill in the blank

[Swordsmyth]

Alright, well that's what I was getting it.

Infection of Roman culture with non-Roman culture --> ...?... --> collapse of the roman army

Fill in the blank

Decadence and corruption. Like extravagant spending leading to debased currency, Just go read any history of the decline and fall of Rome and you will be inundated with examples of decadence and corruption.

[r3volution 3.0]

Decadence and corruption. Like extravagant spending leading to debased currency, Just go read any history of the decline and fall of Rome and you will be inundated with examples of decadence and corruption.

The causal relationships are fuzzy.

Which specific characteristics of these foreign cultures caused which specific bad actions?

Men started growing their bears like Greeks, therefore, the emperors debased the currency?

...doesn't make sense.

[phill4paul]

Which was the end result of the decadence and corruption they picked up from their many conquered peoples.

Decadence and corruption were the sole result of their conquered people? It is not something inherent to man? The Romans were enlightened people above this corruption? Wut?

[Swordsmyth]

Decadence and corruption were the sole result of their conquered people? It is not something inherent to man? The Romans were enlightened people above this corruption? Wut?

It was not the sole cause, almost nothing has only one cause, but the Greeks and other barbarians were decadent, corrupt or both, and that accelerated the decline and fall of Rome.

[Swordsmyth]

The causal relationships are fuzzy.

Which specific characteristics of these foreign cultures caused which specific bad actions?

Men started growing their bears like Greeks, therefore, the emperors debased the currency?

...doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Swordsmyth
Like extravagant spending leading to debased currency.

[r3volution 3.0]

Originally Posted by Swordsmyth
Like extravagant spending leading to debased currency.

Are you saying that the concept of currency debasement was part of barbarian culture, but not Roman?

Or extravagant spending?

[phill4paul]

It was not the sole cause, almost nothing has only one cause, but the Greeks and other barbarians were decadent, corrupt or both, and that accelerated the decline and fall of Rome.

So..Romans weren't decadent, corrupt or both. This is your position?

[Swordsmyth]

Are you saying that the concept of currency debasement was part of barbarian culture, but not Roman?

Or extravagant spending?

extravagant spending.

[Swordsmyth]

So..Romans weren't decadent, corrupt or both. This is your position?

At the start they were less so, also if they were decadent and corrupt in facet A, and they adopted decadence and corruption in facets B,C,D and E from barbarian cultures B,C,D and E then they ended up 5 times as corrupt even though they were originally equally corrupt.

[r3volution 3.0]

extravagant spending.

This is simply a function of wealth. Romans started building luxurious villas and so forth because they got rich - like everybody does. But even if Roman extravagance in the late Republic/empire was a result of foreign cultural influence, that doesn't explain government spending, since the vast majority of that was for the army (not imperial consumption spending), despite some outrageous stories about the likes of Caligula.

[Swordsmyth]

This is simply a function of wealth. Romans started building luxurious villas and so forth because they got rich - like everybody does. But even if Roman extravagance in the late Republic/empire was a result of foreign cultural influence, that doesn't explain government spending, since the vast majority of that was for the army (not imperial consumption spending), despite some outrageous stories about the likes of Caligula.

And they got their taste for globe straddling empire as well as other forms of extravagant government spending from the Greeks among others.
Personal extravagance was also exacerbated by Greek culture.

There were many other ways that bringing in/absorbing far too many foreigners contributed to their decline and fall as well.

[phill4paul]

At the start they were less so, also if they were decadent and corrupt in facet A, and they adopted decadence and corruption in facets B,C,D and E from barbarian cultures B,C,D and E then they ended up 5 times as corrupt even though they were originally equally corrupt.

When was Rome started, when was it lost? This is an important civics quiz.
Did immigrants cause the beatific new found Republic of the United States of America, founded in part, or at least through propaganda, in rebellion to a King and his Parliaments, tea tax, to wage war against it's citizens over a domestic whiskey tax? What of Shay's rebellion? Foreigners again?
Power corrupts. That which is won for all the right reasons soon becomes lost, for all the wrong ones.
And so it goes.

[Swordsmyth]

When was Rome started, when was it lost? This is an important civics quiz.
Did immigrants cause the beatific new found Republic of the United States of America, founded in part, or at least through propaganda, in rebellion to a King and his Parliaments, tea tax, to wage war against it's citizens over a domestic whiskey tax? What of Shay's rebellion? Foreigners again?
Power corrupts. That which is won for all the right reasons soon becomes lost, for all the wrong ones.
And so it goes.

And the decline is accelerated beyond repair if you bring in foreigners with bad culture and politics in unending numbers.

[phill4paul]

And the decline is accelerated beyond repair if you bring in foreigners with bad culture and politics in unending numbers.

Non-response. You merely regurgitated your belief regarding foreigners without addressing my points about interior corruption. If you wish to have discourse you will need to do better. If decline is inherent, through bad politics, then what matter is foreign acceleration? If a barrel of apples is rotten then the barrel is rotten. The shame is that if fresh apples are thrown in to the barrel they too become rotten.