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Thread: Israel: An issue many in the liberty movement get wrong

  1. #1

    Question Israel: An issue many in the liberty movement get wrong

    I have observed many debates on foreign policy on RPF, DP, and countless other liberty-oriented sites. A trend I have noticed is the anti-Israel sentiments and the downright hatred of Israel.

    Many in the liberty movement are so off on this issue for a few reasons:

    1) Israel is our strongest ally in the part of the world where folks are the most hostile toward the United States. The United States has spent a long time playing Russian Roulette with countries in the Middle East (i.e. arming ISIS in Syria, and fighting against them in Iraq)..but Israel has *almost always been our ally.

    2) The anger is directed towards Israel as if they are our enemy. You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people.

    3) The power of the AIPAC lobby - just like liberals broadly lump in all gun owners in with the NRA, it is unfair to broadly lump all the folks in Israel with AIPAC. The anger should be dedicated towards the politicians who allow AIPAC to have such a heavy influence on their decision making when it comes to foreign policy - not Israel.

    4) The foreign aid the United States sends to Israel isn't Israel's fault. If you were offered billions in aid from the United States, would you say NO? Absolutely not. The anger here should be directed towards our politicians who try to buy influence with foreign leaders using foreign aid as a tool to do so.

    In conclusion, the anger directed towards Israel for many controversial topics should be directed elsewhere. You can be critical of Israel for specific actions they take, just as you would be critical of the United States for specific actions they take. It is just this guy's opinion that it is absurd to oppose everything that Israel, an ally of the United States, does. It is a subject that I think is a sore spot in the liberty movement that should be addressed moving forward. Just my take.

    I welcome any criticism and/or concurrence with what I have laid out in this thread. I look forward to receiving your feedback, RPF.
    Last edited by Massachusetts; 07-13-2014 at 08:05 PM. Reason: Edited to say Israel has almost always been our all
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  3. #2
    You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people.
    Stopped reading here. For $#@! sake. $#@! off. We are not anti-semites or do we hate Israelis.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by green73 View Post
    Stopped reading here. For $#@! sake. $#@! off. We are not anti-semites or do we hate Israelis.
    That isn't my point at all. My point is that a lot of the anger directed towards Israel for their political clout in the United States is being directed at the wrong person(s). Want to blame somebody? Blame irresponsible politicians in the United States, whether they be Democrat or Republican. I believe that we should support our allies - not unconditionally - but there is an instinct on the part of many to condemn Israel regardless of the context of the situation. I disagree with that instinct.
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    That isn't my point at all. My point is that a lot of the anger directed towards Israel for their political clout in the United States is being directed at the wrong person(s). Want to blame somebody? Blame irresponsible politicians in the United States, whether they be Democrat or Republican. I believe that we should support our allies - not unconditionally - but there is an instinct on the part of many to condemn Israel regardless of the context of the situation. I disagree with that instinct.
    Of course. It always comes down to politicians. That's why gov't doesn't work. Anything that takes politicians to function is doomed to fail. If you believe in free markets you have to agree.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    I have observed many debates on foreign policy on RPF, DP, and countless other liberty-oriented sites. A trend I have noticed is the anti-Israel sentiments and the downright hatred of Israel.

    Many in the liberty movement are so off on this issue for a few reasons:

    1) Israel is our strongest ally in the part of the world where folks are the most hostile toward the United States. The United States has spent a long time playing Russian Roulette with countries in the Middle East (i.e. arming ISIS in Syria, and fighting against them in Iraq)..but Israel has always been our ally.

    2) The anger is directed towards Israel as if they are our enemy. You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people.

    3) The power of the AIPAC lobby - just like liberals broadly lump in all gun owners in with the NRA, it is unfair to broadly lump all the folks in Israel with AIPAC. The anger should be dedicated towards the politicians who allow AIPAC to have such a heavy influence on their decision making when it comes to foreign policy - not Israel.

    4) The foreign aid the United States sends to Israel isn't Israel's fault. If you were offered billions in aid from the United States, would you say NO? Absolutely not. The anger here should be directed towards our politicians who try to buy influence with foreign leaders using foreign aid as a tool to do so.

    In conclusion, the anger directed towards Israel for many controversial topics should be directed elsewhere. You can be critical of Israel for specific actions they take, just as you would be critical of the United States for specific actions they take. It is just this guy's opinion that it is absurd to oppose everything that Israel, an ally of the United States, does. It is a subject that I think is a sore spot in the liberty movement that should be addressed moving forward. Just my take.

    I welcome any criticism and/or concurrence with what I have laid out in this thread. I look forward to receiving your feedback, RPF.
    1) Israel isn't our best ally. The benefits that the American people might theoretically gain from the relationship is negated by the fact that we are more likely to be attacked, and have been attacked, for going down this road of entangling alliances. The United States supplies Israel with weaponry that often violates conventions, said weaponry is used on Palestinians, (whether you believe justifiably so or not is a moot point) various factions in the Middle East and elsewhere point to the mangled corpses of innocent men, women, and children and sell a tale about a so-called American war on Islam. Statements made by prominent neoconservative talking heads only serves to reinforce that perception. Many are recruited, radicalized, and convinced that a life of war against the United States, and anyone happening to be from there, is moral, righteous, and their duty. These aren't soldiers who are largely paid to fight. They will keep using guerrilla tactics and attacking Americans at every opportunity. We shouldn't be there.

    Not simply that, Israel would have an incentive to work towards peaceful relationships with its neighbors if the United States was not artificially propping them up.

    2) Israel has attacked us before. The people of Israel are not 'our' enemy, but the government of Israel certainly doesn't much have any qualms about committing acts of war against the United States. Israel bombs hospitals, schools, their forces shoot down innocent children, their munitions (often supplied by the United States) cause excruciating and slow deaths of many innocent people. It is not in the individuals of the United States interest to sponsor these things. Sure, a few Americans prosper greatly. A few receive oil drilling contracts, military welfare, and various other self-enriching, crony-capitalist plots and schemes are realized.

    3) It's not simply the politicians who have become utterly subservient to the will of AIPAC, it is the American people who have been taught many of the things you say. "They are our best ally in the Middle East" etc. (they aren't, and regardless, we shouldn't be there). Many's interpretation of the Bible and fanatical aspirations to promote an apocalypse signifying the Second Coming of Christ is to blame as well. They equate Israel, the modern day state, to Israel that is mentioned in the Bible. It's quite amazing that the only bills and/or resolutions that can pass with unanimous consent are the bills to give Israel more money, or reconfirm the undying, eternal, entangling relationship (or other pointless theatrics for politicians to point to on how much they supported Israel when they travel home). It's sickening.

    4) Many in Israel actively call for the aid. Many in America actively offer it. Regardless of all that, yes, they should deny it. And yes, America should not be offering it. What do they want? Sovereignty? Or to be an American puppet state? As the relationship stands, considering how much our policy is dictated by Israel, and not vise versa, I'd say "we" are the puppets.

    In short, I just deny, in full, that there is any benefit to be had by our alliance with Israel. We should trade with all nations. Not be tied to the hip with them. We are broke and can't afford it, it leads to us being attacked and gets us into wars, and it promotes death and hostility.
    Last edited by kcchiefs6465; 07-13-2014 at 08:48 PM.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    1) Israel isn't our best ally. The benefits that the American people might theoretically gain from the relationship is negated by the fact that we are more likely to be attacked, and have been attacked, for going down this road of entangling alliances. The United States supplies Israel with weaponry that often violates conventions, said weaponry is used on Palestinians, (whether you believe justifiably so or not is a moot point) various factions in the Middle East and elsewhere point to the mangled corpses of innocent men, women, and children and sell a tale about a so-called American war on Islam. Statements made by prominent neoconservative talking heads only serves to reinforce that perception. Many are recruited, radicalized, and convinced that a life of war against the United States, and anyone happening to be from there, is moral, righteous, and their duty. These aren't soldiers who are largely paid to fight. They will keep using guerrilla tactics and attacking Americans at every opportunity. We shouldn't be there.

    Not simply that, Israel would have an incentive to work towards peaceful relationships with its neighbors if the United States was not artificially propping them up.

    2) Israel has attacked us before. The people of Israel are not 'our' enemy, but the government of Israel certainly doesn't much have any qualms about committing acts of war against the United States. Israel bombs hospitals, schools, their forces shoot down innocent children, their munitions (often supplied by the United States) cause excruciating and slow deaths of many innocent people. It is not in the individuals of the United States interest to sponsor these things. Sure, a few Americans prosper greatly. A few receive oil drilling contracts, military welfare, and various other self-enriching, crony-capitalist plots and schemes are realized.

    3) It's not simply the politicians who have become utterly subservient to the will of AIPAC, it is the American people who have been taught many of the things you say. "They are our best ally in the Middle East" etc. (they aren't, and regardless, we shouldn't be there). Many's interpretation of the Bible and fanatical aspirations to promote an apocalypse signifying the Second Coming of Christ is to blame as well. They equate Israel, the modern day state, to Israel that is mentioned in the Bible. It's quite amazing that the only bills and/or resolutions that can pass with unanimous consent are the bills to give Israel more money, or reconfirm the undying, eternal, entangling relationship (or other pointless theatrics for politicians to point to on how much they supported Israel when they travel home). It's sickening.

    4) Many in Israel actively call for the aid. Many in America actively offer it. Regardless of all that, yes, they should deny it. And yes, America should not be offering it. What do they want? Sovereignty? Or to be an American puppet state? As the relationship stands, considering how much our policy is dictated by Israel, and not vice versa, I'd say "we" are the puppets.

    In short, I just deny, in full, that there is any benefit to be had by our alliance with Israel. We should trade with all nations. Not be tied to the hip with them. We are broke and can't afford it, it leads to us being attacked and gets us into wars, and it promotes death and hostility.
    KC I really enjoyed reading this response and I share many of the same concerns you do about our relationship with Israel; however, how do you address the instinct of many folks in the liberty movement to always condemn Israel and ignore the behavior of other countries? (I ask you this, but I understand you can't explain the behavior of other people)

    For example, if there is a story about Israel attacking a country, there is a lot of commentary and finger wagging pointed in Israel's direction...but if another country commits the same treacherous act, there is silence? I get the sense there is animosity towards Israel.
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  8. #7
    Are we getting money for this thread? 'Cause it ain't just the District of Calamity that's being sponsored by the Zionists. If they can subsidize 90% of the televangelist channels on the airwaves, seems like they can pay this site to host this paid commercial program...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Are we getting money for this thread? 'Cause it ain't just the District of Calamity that's being sponsored by the Zionists. If they can subsidize 90% of the televangelist channels on the airwaves, seems like they can pay this site to host this paid commercial program...
    No one is paying us, and if there were such a sponsor there would be a notice. If anyone else is being paid to post here they need to disclose that relationship, per the guidelines.
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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    KC I really enjoyed reading this response and I share many of the same concerns you do about our relationship with Israel; however, how do you address the instinct of many folks in the liberty movement to always condemn Israel and ignore the behavior of other countries? (I ask you this, but I understand you can't explain the behavior of other people)

    For example, if there is a story about Israel attacking a country, there is a lot of commentary and finger wagging pointed in Israel's direction...but if another country commits the same treacherous act, there is silence? I get the sense there is animosity towards Israel.
    A lot of it has to do with the resentment many hold after witnessing the sort of power Israeli interests wield on American politics. That and to try to convince people that this isn't in our interests as well as to show the true extent of what our tax dollars go towards. I don't mention Uganda much because the foreign policy relationship is quite different from ours with Israel. It isn't usually, though some do dwell on Israel as the cause of the world's grief (whether for bigoted, conspiracy related [and I say that loosely] or prophetic grounds), that the majority of libertarians (and various other foreign policy commentators), or rather, people who follow world events and the news more so than the average, unnecessarily attack Israel. A lot of the criticism is warranted. Now for the average person, sure, it might come off a certain way. I know people who think that a coming apocalypse, which will be started in modern day Israel, will bring about their eternal bliss. They get incredibly defensive at the mention of even a penny being cut. And that's one thing to believe that, but these people vote, and they lobby and they promote this message in ways that affects me. So that's a little bit why Israel is often discussed while other nations committing atrocities are sometimes overlooked, or the outrage seems minimal.

    No doubt about it, many have animosity towards Israel. I see something passed, another few billion in aid, or whatever, 433-2. 99-1. That annoys me. Then I see numbers of what the war in Afghanistan and Iraq will cost (Bin Laden being largely motivated by US support of Israel and their treatment of Palestinians, as well as our presence in Saudi Arabia and the tragedy of sanctioning Iraq) and it annoys me. I see the effects of depleted uranium and white phosphorus and it is tragic. If you spoke to the majority who dislike Israel [who hold sane conversations or are knowledgeable on foreign policy] you'd find that their concerns are not ill founded. There's the few who will always spout off nonsense about the 'Joos'... it's best to just brush them off. Regardless of rebutting their ignorance, they aren't going to listen. Hell, they probably won't even read it.

    If you're looking for a way to speak to people who blindly and eternally want aid continued to Israel, speak about the issues of Israel's sovereignty being affected. Appeal to their sense of obligation of doing things for Israel's benefit. Oh, it throws them into a conundrum. "Israel ought be free to conduct their affairs as they see fit without United States foreign aid coming into play on their decisions." "We shouldn't dictate to Israel their policy." Many politicians there want the aid cut for that very reason. Israel-firsters don't quite know how to respond.
    Last edited by kcchiefs6465; 07-13-2014 at 09:21 PM.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
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  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    KC I really enjoyed reading this response and I share many of the same concerns you do about our relationship with Israel; however, how do you address the instinct of many folks in the liberty movement to always condemn Israel and ignore the behavior of other countries? (I ask you this, but I understand you can't explain the behavior of other people)

    For example, if there is a story about Israel attacking a country, there is a lot of commentary and finger wagging pointed in Israel's direction...but if another country commits the same treacherous act, there is silence? I get the sense there is animosity towards Israel.
    Axis of Evil: US, Israel and Saudi Arabia.

    (Their governments, not necessarily their people--however their/our people do make up the government.)

    Does this mean I think Iran, North Korea and Iraq are wonderful? $#@! no--but I hold us and our allies to higher standards. Should I not?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Are we getting money for this thread? 'Cause it ain't just the District of Calamity that's being sponsored by the Zionists. If they can subsidize 90% of the televangelist channels on the airwaves, seems like they can pay this site to host this paid commercial program...
    This kind of proves my point.

    And no I am not being paid for posting my opinion.
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  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    This kind of proves my point.

    And no I am not being paid for posting my opinion.
    Understand, though, that this topic has been discussed quite a bit. There are a few who do get paid to post pro-Israel things to the internet. There's an app for it, even, that directs students, in exchange for financial benefits, to combat anything 'anti'-Israel. Most of the people who responded to you aren't normally crass. If one thinks their time is being wasted, or sophist arguments are promoted, or even that one simply is here to troll for kicks they respond differently than if asked about it in what they'd consider a genuine way (not that I think you are paid to post or anything of the sort... hell, I've never even seen you post to the forums).

    I've talked to you before in chat, haven't discussed this issue in a while, your OP was worded quite respectfully and was thought out and I think this thread is/could be productive.
    Last edited by kcchiefs6465; 01-13-2015 at 08:25 PM.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    For example, if there is a story about Israel attacking a country, there is a lot of commentary and finger wagging pointed in Israel's direction...but if another country commits the same treacherous act, there is silence? I get the sense there is animosity towards Israel.
    Do you just make these things up out of the blue or what? What country has done the same thing as Israel and we don't discuss it? Post a topic if you are so interested in getting the discussion started. Not only do you want us to love Israel as much as you do, you want us to create new topics to discuss something other than Israel as well?

    The vast majority of the news websites are PR0-Israel. You can go there if you feel like cheer leading Israel and their current murder of civilians. I am sure you will find a VERY receptive audience over there. But that is not enough for you is it? You want everyone here to be kinder, gentler to those poor victims in Israel as well right?

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post

    1) Israel is our strongest ally in the part of the world where folks are the most hostile toward the United States. ...
    If that is the case, why no Israeli troops stood with American troops on frontlines in Iraq during Operation Iraqi Freedom?

    How many terror attacks against America took place before and after America started funding Israeli occupation of Palestinians?

    Do you believe arabs and jews are equal as races or one is more chosen than the other... in other words, do you support or oppose zionism?

    Just to understand where you are coming from.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    but I hold us and our allies to higher standards. Should I not?
    You're right, and this is why we are so disappointed and outraged. We have been enablers. The Jewish settlers made up 8% of the total population and inherited 55% of the land under the 1947 UN plan, yet they continue to seize and occupy more and more, and we have emboldened it....

    “The easiest way to gain control of a population is to carry out acts of terror. [The public] will clamor for such laws if their personal security is threatened”.
    - Josef Stalin

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    1) Israel isn't our best ally. The benefits that the American people might theoretically gain from the relationship is negated by the fact that we are more likely to be attacked, and have been attacked, for going down this road of entangling alliances. The United States supplies Israel with weaponry that often violates conventions, said weaponry is used on Palestinians, (whether you believe justifiably so or not is a moot point) various factions in the Middle East and elsewhere point to the mangled corpses of innocent men, women, and children and sell a tale about a so-called American war on Islam. Statements made by prominent neoconservative talking heads only serves to reinforce that perception. Many are recruited, radicalized, and convinced that a life of war against the United States, and anyone happening to be from there, is moral, righteous, and their duty. These aren't soldiers who are largely paid to fight. They will keep using guerrilla tactics and attacking Americans at every opportunity. We shouldn't be there.

    Not simply that, Israel would have an incentive to work towards peaceful relationships with its neighbors if the United States was not artificially propping them up.

    2) Israel has attacked us before. The people of Israel are not 'our' enemy, but the government of Israel certainly doesn't much have any qualms about committing acts of war against the United States. Israel bombs hospitals, schools, their forces shoot down innocent children, their munitions (often supplied by the United States) cause excruciating and slow deaths of many innocent people. It is not in the individuals of the United States interest to sponsor these things. Sure, a few Americans prosper greatly. A few receive oil drilling contracts, military welfare, and various other self-enriching, crony-capitalist plots and schemes are realized.

    3) It's not simply the politicians who have become utterly subservient to the will of AIPAC, it is the American people who have been taught many of the things you say. "They are our best ally in the Middle East" etc. (they aren't, and regardless, we shouldn't be there). Many's interpretation of the Bible and fanatical aspirations to promote an apocalypse signifying the Second Coming of Christ is to blame as well. They equate Israel, the modern day state, to Israel that is mentioned in the Bible. It's quite amazing that the only bills and/or resolutions that can pass with unanimous consent are the bills to give Israel more money, or reconfirm the undying, eternal, entangling relationship (or other pointless theatrics for politicians to point to on how much they supported Israel when they travel home). It's sickening.

    4) Many in Israel actively call for the aid. Many in America actively offer it. Regardless of all that, yes, they should deny it. And yes, America should not be offering it. What do they want? Sovereignty? Or to be an American puppet state? As the relationship stands, considering how much our policy is dictated by Israel, and not vise versa, I'd say "we" are the puppets.

    In short, I just deny, in full, that there is any benefit to be had by our alliance with Israel. We should trade with all nations. Not be tied to the hip with them. We are broke and can't afford it, it leads to us being attacked and gets us into wars, and it promotes death and hostility.
    Excellent.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    KC I really enjoyed reading this response and I share many of the same concerns you do about our relationship with Israel; however, how do you address the instinct of many folks in the liberty movement to always condemn Israel and ignore the behavior of other countries? (I ask you this, but I understand you can't explain the behavior of other people)
    Okay. ^This is complete and utter crap. Seriously it is. I throw up a little in my mouth every time I hear the lie perpetrated by you and others that people who criticize Israel don't criticize other countries. Hell...how many times do people in this movement criticize actions of the United States? There are often criticisms of Mexico (a whole thread recently devoted to Mexico and Guatemala committing an "act of war" by greasing the skids of immigrants heading north), China, North Korea, Russia, you name it. Many have been highly critical of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia for their roles in CIA sponsored wars that destabilize foreign countries. And yet any time anyone ever criticizes Israel, instead of dealing with said criticism on its face, we get the "Well you're singling out Israel and not criticizing any other countries" lie from hell, and personally I'm sick and tired of it!

    For example, if there is a story about Israel attacking a country, there is a lot of commentary and finger wagging pointed in Israel's direction...but if another country commits the same treacherous act, there is silence? I get the sense there is animosity towards Israel.
    Says you. Further criticism is best aimed at people you have some possible influence over. Next time Canada bombs or invades someone, let us know so that we can all speak out. But pretty much everyone here spoke out when the U.S. bombed Libya or Syria. Your argument is flat out dishonest because it ignores that. I'm not saying you are being dishonest. You are perhaps parroting an argument that you have heard from others. But the argument is dishonest.

    But you know what you didn't address? This point that post you "responded" to.

    Israel has attacked us before.

    Read up on the U.S.S. Liberty and the Lavon affair. Both are documented acts of war against the U.S. by Israel. Had Iran done either, it would be bombed into the stone age. What you should be asking yourselves isn't why do Israel's critics not criticize other countries. Your question should be why do Israel's critics never criticize Israel and then try to paint anyone who ever does criticize Israel as "anti Jew" or "anti Israel."
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    Axis of Evil: US, Israel and Saudi Arabia.

    (Their governments, not necessarily their people--however their/our people do make up the government.)

    Does this mean I think Iran, North Korea and Iraq are wonderful? $#@! no--but I hold us and our allies to higher standards. Should I not?
    Amy, you criticized Saudi Arabia. According to the OP's logic you do not exist. Nobody exists within this movement that ever criticize Israel and some other country. No, the only people that exist are the good patriots that criticize anyone but Israel and the racist patriots who only criticize Israel.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  22. #19
    1) Israel is our strongest ally
    Quoting Thomas Jefferson 21 June 2000 Ron Paul states:

    “Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none, I deem one of the essential principles of our government and consequently one of those which ought to shape its administration.”


    WE HAVE NO ALLIES WE ARE SOVERIEGN.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by green73 View Post
    Stopped reading here. For $#@! sake. $#@! off. We are not anti-semites or do we hate Israelis.
    I stopped here:
    Israel is our strongest ally in [that] part of the world
    Anyone who still uses the word "our" to refer to the US Fed Gov shouldn't be lecturing the "liberty movement."
    "You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul

  24. #21

  25. #22
    I just realized the purpose of this thread. Forgive me but I'm not on here 24/7 like I used to be and I don't bother keeping up with the news either. I did hear about Israel's latest war with Hamas. My reaction was "Oh well. Here we go again." I suppose there have been a lot of threads on this lately. Frankly, I just don't care anymore. Both sides are stupid. Israel is stupid for having settlers living in areas that can't be defended. The Palestinians are stupid for taking the bait and killing three Israeli teens. The Israeli settlers are stupid for retaliating and killing a Palestinian teen. The Palestinians are stupid for responding with rockets that are guaranteed to provoke a stupid response from Israel in terms of air strikes and a ground invasion. Everybody claims victimhood in all of this. The civilian casualties mount up.

    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    I have observed many debates on foreign policy on RPF, DP, and countless other liberty-oriented sites. A trend I have noticed is the anti-Israel sentiments and the downright hatred of Israel.

    Many in the liberty movement are so off on this issue for a few reasons:

    1) Israel is our strongest ally in the part of the world where folks are the most hostile toward the United States. The United States has spent a long time playing Russian Roulette with countries in the Middle East (i.e. arming ISIS in Syria, and fighting against them in Iraq)..but Israel has *almost always been our ally.

    2) The anger is directed towards Israel as if they are our enemy. You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people.

    3) The power of the AIPAC lobby - just like liberals broadly lump in all gun owners in with the NRA, it is unfair to broadly lump all the folks in Israel with AIPAC. The anger should be dedicated towards the politicians who allow AIPAC to have such a heavy influence on their decision making when it comes to foreign policy - not Israel.

    4) The foreign aid the United States sends to Israel isn't Israel's fault. If you were offered billions in aid from the United States, would you say NO? Absolutely not. The anger here should be directed towards our politicians who try to buy influence with foreign leaders using foreign aid as a tool to do so.

    In conclusion, the anger directed towards Israel for many controversial topics should be directed elsewhere. You can be critical of Israel for specific actions they take, just as you would be critical of the United States for specific actions they take. It is just this guy's opinion that it is absurd to oppose everything that Israel, an ally of the United States, does. It is a subject that I think is a sore spot in the liberty movement that should be addressed moving forward. Just my take.

    I welcome any criticism and/or concurrence with what I have laid out in this thread. I look forward to receiving your feedback, RPF.
    I am unsure of "anger" directed at Israel , more like a disgust people commonly feel about the double standards when it comes to foreign aid. I am a christian and I don't believe the "israeli" government is holy , it is actually the practice of mammon worship.Jacobs name is important (son of Isaac in the bible) God directly calls him "oh Jacob you worm", later on God said his name would no longer be known as Jacob but Israel would be the new name. This is prophetic word, prophetic word is simply the pointing towards and revealing of Jesus Christ existing from beginning to end of the entire bible. So what does this mean "oh Jacob you worm" and Jacob's name being Israel later on? Jacob represents the old covenant, the works of man...Israel is the bride of Jesus Christ a new creation. Israel the state exists because the practice of mammon(practice of worshipping wealth and works and race are promoted out of misunderstanding prophecy and rejecting Jesus Christ). The state of Israel is a counterfeit Israel, it is not the nation of Israel.God had seen Jesus Christ over the people since the beginning, it would not be by their own works or personality but that God had seen Jesus Christ raising the spiritually dead through Jacobs lineage and this is why his name was now Israel. I cannot and will not support a man made state of politicians that perpetuates mammon at its core. With that said, it is an entire different but interwoven subject that would take pages worth of theology to discuss. There is a historical background to the established "state" of Israel which also troubles me. Jewish people migrated allover the slovak nations as well as europe pre ww2. Many were called Ashkenazi Jewish people, and they settled in many parts other than Jerusalem. It was not until the League of Nations stepped in and took rule away from the Ottoman Empire and Germany after ww1 that the land began having borders put up. What the United Nations did later on after ww2 in partitioning land and making it the "state of israel" is not something I want to be a part of because it only leads to blood shed on all sides of the borders.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Need to learn more about this to see if birth-ism has a direct connection to race-ism.


    Gaza fighting won't stop Birthright, but other tourists wary of visiting Israel

    Itineraries on the free Taglit have been adjusted for security situation, but not a single participant has canceled.

    By Rina Rozenberg | Jul. 14, 2014 | 11:00 AM
    Meanwhile, of the some 3,200 Jews aged 18 to 26 from 10 different countries are currently touring Israel with Birthright groups, not a single participant has asked to shorten their trip on account of the security situation, Birthright Israel said. Officials attributed this to the instructions it has given to all participants to call their parents every day.
    Organizers have changed itineraries, however, to keep them away from the south and other areas considered dangerous.
    “The number of cancellations is much smaller than could have been expected,” said Birthright CEO Gidi Mark, who put it at only around 5%, compared with 3% on average overall. “Those who are here now feel it is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see how Israel really looks.”
    A few days ago a ship carrying 800 French youth-movement members arrived in Israel. “The teens are happy, but we get calls from worried parents, and there are also a few parents who said they’re coming on Sunday to take their children home,” said Amos Hermon, CEO of the Jewish Agency’s Israel Experience.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    For example, if there is a story about Israel attacking a country, there is a lot of commentary and finger wagging pointed in Israel's direction...but if another country commits the same treacherous act, there is silence?
    The mainstream media picks the topics of discussion. If they discuss Israel once every ten minutes on every mainstream media outlet, statistically there will be more discussion of Israel, both positive and negative.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    An issue many in the liberty movement get wrong

    I welcome any criticism and/or concurrence with what I have laid out in this thread. I look forward to receiving your feedback, RPF.
    I find the entire post rather insulting, of both intelligence and motivation of the members here.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  31. #27
    This x1000.

    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    Axis of Evil: US, Israel and Saudi Arabia.

    (Their governments, not necessarily their people--however their/our people do make up the government.)

    Does this mean I think Iran, North Korea and Iraq are wonderful? $#@! no--but I hold us and our allies to higher standards. Should I not?
    "Like an army falling, one by one by one" - Linkin Park

  32. #28
    I like to keep my knows in domestic policy - but, this whole Palestine and Israel mess is making me sick as does ALL killings. I've seen dozens of pictures/videos of dead children in the past week from Palestine ... parents claim it's Israel doing the killing. Then, I see pictures/video from Israel saying they ARE doing the killing !!! WTF !!!

    Sooo, I stopped reading this OP at "You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people."

    I disagree 100%. 100% I tell ya.

    It takes some sick POS to target an kill children for ANY reason what so ever .. and even sicker POS to defend that action. If you care to know what I think.
    "Never Miss a Good Chance to Shut up"

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaCato View Post
    I like to keep my knows in domestic policy - but, this whole Palestine and Israel mess is making me sick as does ALL killings. I've seen dozens of pictures/videos of dead children in the past week from Palestine ... parents claim it's Israel doing the killing. Then, I see pictures/video from Israel saying they ARE doing the killing !!! WTF !!!

    Sooo, I stopped reading this OP at "You can disagree with actions that Israel takes in terms of military strategy without expressing hatred of Israel and their people."

    I disagree 100%. 100% I tell ya.

    It takes some sick POS to target an kill children for ANY reason what so ever .. and even sicker POS to defend that action. If you care to know what I think.
    A video illustrating what you are talking about.

    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  34. #30

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