Montana becomes the first U.S. state to ban vaccine requirements for employees

[acptulsa]

Regulating our way to freedom is like taxing our way to prosperity.

More government has never led to less government.

Two governments going at each other hammer and tongs, on the other hand, has occasionally been known to have that happy effect. They can stir us up and put us at each others' throats, and they do and they are doing so. You're saying we can't do that to them?

Well, apparently we can.

Who said anything about corporations? I thought we were talking about employers.

Nobody said anything about corporations, Your Grace. What a foolish idea. No corporation ever employed anyone ever. So of course no one ever said "my employer" in reference to a corporation. Perish the thought.

You seem to only take absolutiists positions when it's convenient.

He takes more positions than Trump, and damn near as many as Romney. He's here to try to pick libertarians up by the tail like lab mice and drop us in a philosophical maze, hoping we'll be confounded into catatonia long enough for Joe Nero to fiddle while Rome burns down around us.

[TheCount]

So... Now you're against the 1964 civil rights act?

I did say that I was and why.

[TheCount]

Two governments going at each other hammer and tongs, on the other hand, has occasionally been known to have that happy effect.

Has it?

It seems to me to be conceding the idea that the government has the ability to control the private sector in this way, and that the disagreement is between two different tribal affinities as to see which way we'll be controlled, and not if we'll be controlled.

Nobody said anything about corporations, Your Grace. What a foolish idea. No corporation ever employed anyone ever. So of course no one ever said "my employer" in reference to a corporation. Perish the thought.

Does this only apply to corporations somehow? You said a whole lot about them and I'm not seeing the connection. Is it because they're the politically correct bogeyman-of-the-moment?

[jmdrake]

I did say that I was and why.

That same logic should have you supporting this move by Montana if you were being the least bit consistent.

[acptulsa]

It seems to me to be conceding the idea that the government has the ability to control the private sector in this way, and that the disagreement is between two different tribal affinities as to see which way we'll be controlled, and not if we'll be controlled.

"...control the private sector..." I'm not interested in the "private sector" at this moment in time. I'm interested in individual human beings with God-given rights. Check your Venn diagram. That's a different subset.

Does this only apply to corporations somehow? You said a whole lot about them and I'm not seeing the connection. Is it because they're the politically correct bogeyman-of-the-moment?

You see the connection. You wouldn't be trying so hard to camouflage it if you didn't. Corporations are multinational, and at the moment, are exercising more control over Congress than We, the People of these once-United States. And I do not recognize that as a God-given right.

That same logic should have you supporting this move by Montana if you were being the least bit consistent.

He is being consistent. He is being just as consistently inconsistent as any opportunist you can name.

[TheCount]

That same logic should have you supporting this move by Montana if you were being the least bit consistent.

Opposing the CRA and enacting Jim Crow laws are different things.

[TheCount]

"...control the private sector..." I'm not interested in the "private sector" at this moment in time. I'm interested in individual human beings with God-given rights. Check your Venn diagram. That's a different subset.

Are employers individual human being with God-given rights?

You see the connection. You wouldn't be trying so hard to camouflage it if you didn't. Corporations are multinational, and at the moment, are exercising more control over Congress than We, the People of these once-United States. And I do not recognize that as a God-given right.

Cool story bro. Nothing about this mandate is restricted to corporations.

[acptulsa]

Are employers individual human being with God-given rights?

Some are. Some definitely are. And others are collectives of human beings with God-given rights. I just don't happen to believe using collusion and blacklisting to force anyone to take something inside their body is one of them.

This law is useful in using the courts to stave off the serious possibility of considerable bloodshed. I can only sincerely hope that Montana repeals it after it serves its usefulness. And that none of the Montana small business proprietors who, for whatever reason, want or need an all-jabbed staff don't lose any to unexplained and demographically unlikely cardiac events triggered by inflammation in the meantime.

[pcosmar]

That same logic should have you supporting this move by Montana if you were being the least bit consistent.

Logic and consistency .

You ask much.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

It seems to me to be conceding the idea that the government has the ability to control the private sector in this way, and that the disagreement is between two different tribal affinities as to see which way we'll be controlled, and not if we'll be controlled.

Your tribe is the one that supports mandatory vax, mandatory masks, minimum wage statutes, US Dept of Ed, OSHA, etc. You vehemently oppose Ron Paul. You voted for Hillary, Zero, and Biden. And yet your profile says you're an RPF "supporting member."

Did you get separated from your tribe?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

And to anyone new just reading this forum:

TheCount is fake. He's a big government advocate and shill trying to discourage RPFers.

His basic schtick in this thread is to play on liberty purity and creating angst. TheCount says: If you are truly for liberty, then you can't possibly support what Montana is doing! He's trying to cause doubt about fundamental liberty principles, and people are falling for it. I say don't worry about it because so much is out of your control.

For more on TheCount and his ilk--read my sig line.

[jmdrake]

Opposing the CRA and enacting Jim Crow laws are different things.

Yes they are. But that's not what you said. This is what you said:

I'm against it for free association reasons.

To be fair, I'm not an absolutist or a purist. I accept that sometimes societies must make tradeoffs in order to achieve some desired result. The question being, of course, whether there is actually some justifiable interest in infringement on the free functioning of an economy.

With regard to the Civil Rights Act, I think that a reasonable argument could be made in either direction.

This cruise ship nonsense? I don't think there's a good, non-tribal argument for it.

If you were logicially consistent, which you are not, you would say "With regard to Montana banning emplorer vaccine mandates, I think a reasonable argument could be made in either direction."

Now if you were a principled "Whenver government gets involved that's a bad thing" person then you would take the Barry Goldwater approach, be opposed to Jim Crow and be opposed to the CRA and take the position that there was no other reasonable argument. Instead....you hedged your bets on the CRA. So, what is the "reasonable argument" you think applies to the CRA?

[Krugminator2]

If you were logicially consistent, which you are not, you would say "With regard to Montana banning emplorer vaccine mandates, I think a reasonable argument could be made in either direction."

Now if you were a principled "Whenver government gets involved that's a bad thing" person then you would take the Barry Goldwater approach, be opposed to Jim Crow and be opposed to the CRA and take the position that there was no other reasonable argument. Instead....you hedged your bets on the CRA. So, what is the "reasonable argument" you think applies to the CRA?

There isn't a reasonable argument for restricting private employers from compulsory vaccination. In fact private employers should be able to use as much leverage as possible to get people vaccinated. Not getting vaccinated imposes a cost on everyone else. The virus mutates. This anti-vax crap is irrational nonsense. At this point, I am for letting people behave irrationally but that doesn't mean its free. Imposing a high cost like losing a job or increasing health insurance premiums still lets people not get vaccinated if they want but most will get vaccinated because of the cost imposed.

Hayek realized this. Ron Paul supporter Nassim Taleb understands. Richard Epstein. Walter Block. On the other hand, the Civil Rights Act is complicated. I have no direct experience what blacks experienced in South but the movie Mississippi Burning made a big impact me. I don't know that is enough to make me support the Civil Rights Act but it is enough to make me reject using Tenth Amendment arguments to restrict freedom just because states are imposing tyranny. If states and local government want to stifle freedom, they shouldn't be allowed in a free society.

[jmdrake]

So much fail in your argument it's hard to know where to start. Israel is on its 4th shot. Biden is pushing for a third shot. FDA SCIENTISTS HAVE RESIGNED IN PROTEST!!!?? So you have lost the "I support the science" high ground. Which scientists are you following? Those that say the mass vaccination program in the middle of a pandemic is driving the explosion of the variants? How about the recent science that shows teen boys are more likely to get myocarditis from the vaccine than to be hospitalized from COVID? How about the science, undisputed at this point, that shows naturally acquired immunity works better against the variants than vaccine acquired immunity? Prior to Trump losing the Whitehouse, Dr. Fauci was claiming a safe vaccine was at least 18 months out. Then, immediately after the election, Fauci was all gung go that everyone take the vaccine. Even doctors who support the COVID vaccines have come out against the mandates.

There isn't a reasonable argument for restricting private employers from compulsory vaccination. In fact private employers should be able to use as much leverage as possible to get people vaccinated. Not getting vaccinated imposes a cost on everyone else. The virus mutates. This anti-vax crap is irrational nonsense. At this point, I am for letting people behave irrationally but that doesn't mean its free. Imposing a high cost like losing a job or increasing health insurance premiums still lets people not get vaccinated if they want but most will get vaccinated because of the cost imposed.

Hayek realized this. Ron Paul supporter Nassim Taleb understands. Richard Epstein. Walter Block. On the other hand, the Civil Rights Act is complicated. I have no direct experience what blacks experienced in South but the movie Mississippi Burning made a big impact me. I don't know that is enough to make me support the Civil Rights Act but it is enough to make me reject using Tenth Amendment arguments to restrict freedom just because states are imposing tyranny. If states and local government want to stifle freedom, they shouldn't be allowed in a free society.

[Krugminator2]

So much fail in your argument it's hard to know where to start. Israel is on its 4th shot. Biden is pushing for a third shot. FDA SCIENTISTS HAVE RESIGNED IN PROTEST!!!?? So you have lost the "I support the science" high ground. Which scientists are you following? Those that say the mass vaccination program in the middle of a pandemic is driving the explosion of the variants? How about the recent science that shows teen boys are more likely to get myocarditis from the vaccine than to be hospitalized from COVID? How about the science, undisputed at this point, that shows naturally acquired immunity works better against the variants than vaccine acquired immunity? Prior to Trump losing the Whitehouse, Dr. Fauci was claiming a safe vaccine was at least 18 months out. Then, immediately after the election, Fauci was all gung go that everyone take the vaccine. Even doctors who support the COVID vaccines have come out against the mandates.

I'm not even going to debate the merits of the vaccines because you will believe whatever irrational nonsense you want. I posted the basic math on Israel that anyone with a 1.0 GPA at a community college should get and it didn't change your mind. Frankly it doesn't matter. Nothing you said is important to whether a private business can require getting vaccinated. At all.

[acptulsa]

This anti-vax crap is irrational nonsense.

People just can't stop proving that Barnum was right.

[CaptUSA]

So much fail in your argument it's hard to know where to start. Israel is on its 4th shot. Biden is pushing for a third shot. FDA SCIENTISTS HAVE RESIGNED IN PROTEST!!!?? So you have lost the "I support the science" high ground. Which scientists are you following? Those that say the mass vaccination program in the middle of a pandemic is driving the explosion of the variants? How about the recent science that shows teen boys are more likely to get myocarditis from the vaccine than to be hospitalized from COVID? How about the science, undisputed at this point, that shows naturally acquired immunity works better against the variants than vaccine acquired immunity? Prior to Trump losing the Whitehouse, Dr. Fauci was claiming a safe vaccine was at least 18 months out. Then, immediately after the election, Fauci was all gung go that everyone take the vaccine. Even doctors who support the COVID vaccines have come out against the mandates.

They are coming out in full force against natural immunity, now. Some of them are ignoring the science completely. Some of them are carefully checking their phrasing and talking about "hybrid immunity" (Natural immunity + Jab). Some of them are talking about natural immunity waning over time, completely ignoring that vaccine-immunity wanes even faster.

But the new narrative is clear - "The Jab is the only thing that can save you!"

Unless we ALL refuse to comply and make them feel the consequences of their policies, they will continue. Even if you've gotten the vaccine, refuse to show your papers!

"My vaccination status is none of your business. I will not show you my papers. I will not support you putting people on lists. You can fire me, arrest me, forcibly try to jab me or kill me, but I WILL NOT COMPLY!" Now, is the time to be strong. Don't wait on these governors to save you.

[jmdrake]

Lol. It's got nothing to do with your fkd up math. The head of Israels vaccination effort is the one that said a 4th booster is needed. And Israel had a spike after mass vaccination that was worse than it's pre vaccination spikes. The vaccines are cause causing the variant spikes. But hell, you thick you one more than the head of the Israeli vaccine program. Maybe you should apply for his job.

I'm not even going to debate the merits of the vaccines because you will believe whatever irrational nonsense you want. I posted the basic math on Israel that anyone with a 1.0 GPA at a community college should get and it didn't change your mind. Frankly it doesn't matter. Nothing you said is important to whether a private business can require getting vaccinated. At all.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Not getting vaccinated imposes a cost on everyone else.

How so? If you get vaccinated, then why are you worried?

[PAF]

How so? If you get vaccinated, then why are you worried?

When Covid first appeared on the stage, it was said that there were over 4,000 variants. Amazing how they could identify that staggering amount in just a few days/weeks/months.

@Krugminator2 must have lots and lots stock. And by his comments, he would expect every person on earth to receive at least 4,000 jabs.


"I'm vaccinated! Stay away from me!"

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

This anti-vax crap is irrational nonsense.

What does "anti-vax" even mean? What's irrational? That peer reviewed research shows Corona deaths are inflated 16.7 times? That peer reviewed research shows masked people are just as likely to get Corona those not masked? That excess vaccines are linked to autism?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

@Krugminator2 must have lots and lots stock.

Money doth make one act irrational.

[Krugminator2]

How so? If you get vaccinated, then why are you worried?

1. The virus mutates which makes the vaccine less effective over time. More vaccinated people means fewer hosts and more likely for virus to die off. Besides the cost in deaths there is a huge economic cost the longer the virus exists. People change their behavior if they don't think going out is safe.

2. Unvaccinated people are significantly more likely to have severe illness and use up hospital resources than vaccinated people. See below from today. Also unvaccinated people are more likely to choose not to have health insurance. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health...ed-study-finds Nothing wrong with not having health insurance if you can show proof of funds if you want treatment. On the other hand if someone someone doesn't have insurance and doesn't have funds, they won't be refused treatment which everyone else has to pay for. That is a problem.




Covid-19 Study in England Shows Few Deaths Among Vaccinated People

Survey finds 640 coronavirus deaths in the first half of 2021 among people who had received two shots and more than 50,000 among those who hadn’t https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-1...ed-11631549453

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

1. The virus mutates which makes the vaccine less effective over time.

So won't you just get another one?

More vaccinated people means fewer hosts and more likely for virus to die off.

Actually, the undeveloped vaccine with people taking it leads to more mutation.

2. Unvaccinated people are significantly more likely to have severe illness and use up hospital resources than vaccinated people. See below from today. Also unvaccinated people are more likely to choose not to have health insurance. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/health...ed-study-finds Nothing wrong with not having health insurance if you can show proof of funds if you want treatment. On the other hand if someone someone doesn't have insurance and doesn't have funds, they won't be refused treatment which everyone else has to pay for. That is a problem.

So your answer to more government is more government.

[Krugminator2]

So your answer to more government is more government.

I am scratching my head where you would get that? Not allowing businesses to require vaccination is certainly more government which is what I am opposing

I am also for letting hospitals let unvaccinated and uninsured people die if those people can't pay or if there are other people in line. Requiring hospital service is a government law.

[pcosmar]

I am scratching my head where you would get that?

Because none of this would be a question EXCEPT for Government..

And Government Imposition on business is the same as Government imposition on an individual..

There was never a Business interest in this country PISS TESTING anyone till it was GOVERNMENT MANDATED.


THIS poison Jab is the same damn thing..

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Not allowing businesses to require vaccination is certainly more government which is what I am opposing

20% of the workforce is employed by government. What about that?

I am also for letting hospitals let unvaccinated and uninsured people die if those people can't pay or if there are other people in line. Requiring hospital service is a government law.

Most hospitals are government.

What would you do about the vaccinated that get Corona?

And, ya know, the mission of a hospital is treating sick people. Are you going to now start cutting people off? Smokers don’t get lung cancer treatment? Fat whales don’t get open heart surgery?

[jmdrake]

1. The virus mutates which makes the vaccine less effective over time. More vaccinated people means fewer hosts and more likely for virus to die off. Besides the cost in deaths there is a huge economic cost the longer the virus exists. People change their behavior if they don't think going out is safe.

Yeah...except the virus already mutated before the vaccines were rolled out. The garbage mRNA vaccines only targetted on aspect of the of the virus, the spike protein. The variants that have taken off have varied the spike protein. According to your lord and savior Dr. Fauci, the vaccinated have just as much viral load as the unvaccinated which means they are just as likely to transmit the virus. So you're not stopping the spread of the virus by having more people vaccinated.

2. Unvaccinated people are significantly more likely to have severe illness and use up hospital resources than vaccinated people. See below from today.

What a socialist argument. "You're using my resources so I'm not going to let you make your own decisions." I bet you support Obamacare as well.

Also unvaccinated people are more likely to choose not to have health insurance.

There is a hospital staffing shortage and that's being exacerbated by the mandate as staff who don't want to be vaccinated quit working for hospitals that require proof of vaccination.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ather-n1279001

So your solution makes the problem worse.

[acptulsa]

So your solution makes the problem worse.

And by ignoring the indisputable fact that medical professionals are resolutely and vociferously rejecting this jab, he's turning a conveniently blind eye on a strong clue that is helping the rest of us determine whether it's England which is cooking their numbers, or Israel.

https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/i...nfection-rate/

[pcosmar]

I am also for letting hospitals let unvaccinated and uninsured people die if those people can't pay or if there are other people in line. Requiring hospital service is a government law.

Hospitals existed without government.

Caring for the sick and Injured has been a MORAL DUTY,, until recent times..

You sound like a Eugenicist,,Just kill off the useless(whoever you deem them to be).