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Thread: The Vaccination Debate

  1. #91
    I’ve been directing my comments to Angela, because I think she is the party smart enough to understand me and so I have a hope of having a productive conversation. And I think she will eventually reply to the valid and rational points I’ve raised and we will have just such a conversation.

    In in the meantime, let me now turn to those of you who are opposing her (quite rudely at times, may I just say). Here’s your truth bombs.

    1. A range somewhere between and inclusive of everything and almost everything of what Angela has written to you about vaccines is true. T-R-U-E. True. In that sense you have totally lost the debate. This is probably why the expressions of anger and insults: at some level, you know this, but of course you still are opposed to vaccines anyway. This is why you should read my posts, because they will provide you with new, valid, and unimpeachable arguments for the stance you want to keep.

    2. The main true thing, big picture, that Angela keeps harping on to you is that vaccines are beneficial, they prevent various diseases, and they can only do that if a certain critical percentage of the population takes the vaccine. That is all, in my opinion, indisputably true. It’s kind of been established by the real and tangible historical experience of humanity, on the scale of tens of millions of people. It is impossible to successfully explain the last hundred years’ history of disease patterns without something like standard immunity/vaccination theory.

    3. Pretty well-established, but less definite, are all the detail things like “the tiny amounts of mercury involved couldn’t possibly matter and cause a problem,” ”there is no convincing correlation between getting immunized and getting autism,” etc. If your thing is quibbling about details, if that’s what you’re into, this would be the place to do it, because it’s possible that injected mercury could turn out to have a different biologic effect than mercury incoming digestively through fish. Things like that. But the weight of evidence is currently on Angela’s side on most of these little side things.

    So, what approach should you take if you want to continue the debate?

    Contra 1. Offer your own incontrovertibly-true statements so that the pro-vaccine side, Angela, isn’t the only one making such statements. I gave one example: it is incontrovertibly true that injections could be poisoned. Nobody can disprove that, and anyone who tries will look like a fool (kind of like you guys look trying to disprove some of Angela’s true statements, tbh).

    Contra 2. Challenge the unchallenged assumption that preventing preventable disease is always and everywhere the best course of action for the human race. That is far from proven and far from obvious. Just because something can be prevented doesn’t mean it has to be or should be. That is the Helicopter Mom mentality. No, I, and all reasonable parents, are in favor of intentionally and consciously *failing* to prevent many preventable injuries. Skinned knees make strong kids.

    Contra 3. As I told you already, here you can get bogged down in the details endlessly, if you like. Endless source of materials there: uncertainty; interpretation; fodder for back-and-forth.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    The only problem with your statement here is that the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program isn't a secret.
    https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html
    https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/f...ember-2018.pdf
    It is a fact that this program has paid out over 4 billion dollars in compensation since its inception.
    It is a fact that vaccines are conceded, without argument, by this court to be the root cause of 17 per cent of the injuries that are compensated.
    It is a fact that vaccines are found by the court, after hearing arguments, to be the root cause of a further 9 per cent of the injuries that are compensated.
    It is a fact that in 74 per cent of the compensated injuries, the VICP holds the vaccine blameless.
    It is a fact that if there was no correlation between the vaccine and the other 74 per cent of the injuries, then they would not have paid compensation.
    It is therefore a reasonable assumption that in 74 per cent of the injuries, the VICP is paying hush money.

    This is after the moral hazard has been implemented of allowing pharmaceutical companies not to stand responsible for their vaccines. This is the government you place absolute faith in on this point, openly admitting that vaccines cause injuries, and covering up injuries almost three quarters of the time.

    I can find no information as to whether the VICP is forwarding injury data or case studies to anyone who follows up on these injuries. In other words, there is no evidence of any follow-up with the pharmaceutical companies.

    It is a further fact that a proper double-blind study on vaccine efficacy and injury is ethically and legally impossible, and therefore, actual science really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on here.

    It's not a secret. It's another one of those things that is easily verifiable and in plain sight. If you want to say "science, academia and government is on on some secret plot plot" that's fine, but you can't refute any of these facts on the ground... not without undermining your faith in the state, which, as already pointed out by @Cleaner44 (despite your inability to see it), destroys your argument.
    Gish gallop. Using a no-fault system makes a lot more sense. Complex epidemiological judgments shouldn't be made by random uneducated jurors. Which is illistrated perfectly by this one single statement:

    It is a fact that if there was no correlation between the vaccine and the other 74 per cent of the injuries, then they would not have paid compensation.
    That's not how it works.
    Last edited by angelatc; 01-08-2019 at 11:07 AM.

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H View Post

    3. Pretty well-established, but less definite, are all the detail things like “the tiny amounts of mercury involved couldn’t possibly matter and cause a problem,” ”there is no convincing correlation between getting immunized and getting autism,” etc. If your thing is quibbling about details, if that’s what you’re into, this would be the place to do it, because it’s possible that injected mercury could turn out to have a different biologic effect than mercury incoming digestively through fish.
    Ethyl vs Methyl mercury. And I haven't looked at the science in the past few years, but the odd thing is that there's no documented side effects of eating fish with high mercury counts. I know last time this came up the cognitive dissonance made heads explode, but the working theory at the time was that the mercury bonded with the selenium in the fish, so it didn't bond in humans.

    I seem to recall using Japan as the most obvious example. Their diet is a very high percentage of seafood, yet they're not stupid and deformed.

    This is an example of the government being overly cautious.

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    3. We'll never be allowed to have freedom when we have people dumb enough to believe the $#@! the anti-vaxxers shovel. The world should condemn them loudly and harshly at every given opportunity. They are death peddlers.
    We'll never be "allowed" to have freedom when we approach it as something we should be "allowed" to have in the first place.

    Freedom is every human being's birthright.

    Sadly, like so much in this world, it is immediately contradicted.

    And I disagree with the premise of your statement.

    It seems to me as humanity gets softer and life gets easier, the less and less freedom there is.

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    We'll never be "allowed" to have freedom when we approach it as something we should be "allowed" to have in the first place.

    Freedom is every human being's birthright.

    Sadly, like so much in this world, it is immediately contradicted.

    And I disagree with the premise of your statement.

    It seems to me as humanity gets softer and life gets easier, the less and less freedom there is.
    I think you're right about that. When we were actually forced to survive, rather than just live, we had too much of our own stuff to worry about.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Gish gallop. Using a no-fault system makes a lot more sense.
    I'm not sure how you don't understand what moral hazard is. I suggest other readers do some searches on that term before suggesting a no-fault system makes any sense. (I will however assume Angela will not do said searches.)

    Complex epidemiological judgments shouldn't be made by random uneducated jurors. Which is illistrated perfectly by this one single statement:

    "It is a fact that if there was no correlation between the vaccine and the other 74 per cent of the injuries, then they would not have paid compensation."

    That's not how it works.
    I'm not seeing any indication you understood my statement. That is precisely how it "works" - the VICP pays vaccine injured subjects and their families in cases where the vaccine is officially held blameless.
    If the vaccine was truly blameless, no compensation would happen. This is how regular court cases "work". That is how the entire rest of the world "works". You don't get money out of Toyota after a court officially rules that your accelerator didn't stick prior to your accident. You get told to get $#@!ed and you have a gigantic legal bill to deal with to boot.

    In Angela world, what possible reason could there be to pay compensation to injured parties after officially declaring that the vaccine had nothing to do with it? What is your "complex epidemiological judgment" that could lead to such a blatantly illogical conclusion?

    Or is your entire argument purely a giant hybrid "you're not an MD on the government dole so you don't get an opinion" appeal-to-authority X no-true-scotsman fallacy?
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  9. #97
    ''Vaccines don't kill people, they kill children.''

    ''We need to kill more children to save children.''

    ''We need to force you to take your vaccine so we can
    find out what's in it.''

  10. #98
    It is common procedure for civil suits to be settled out of court.

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    You are the one constantly calling for government bans and controls. And the reason I believe in herd immunity is because it's a scientific theory that has been proved repeatedly. (That means over and over.)

    Look - here is Zimmerman's testimony: https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

    I know you're not going to comprehend read it, but here's the Cliff Notes version:

    Dr Zimmerman is pro vaccine and even vaccinates his patients. Dr Zimmerman does not conclude that vaccines cause autism. Dr Zimmerman believes that autism is primarily a genetic disorder. Zimmerman explains how he continues to vaccinate, even in children with mitochondrial disorders (see: Hanna Poling), as he understands the benefits outweigh the risks. He explains that in his opinion the Yates Hazelhurst medical records show no signs of regression. He asserts that encephalopathy is a separate condition from autism. He states that “mitochondrial autism” is not a valid medical term.

    As usual, he didn't reach the conclusions your article attributes to him.

    The Clear Legal Basis that Vaccines Cause Autism

    By: J.B. Handley, Jr.

    There are only a few people in the world I believe could end the autism epidemic single-handedly. The director of the CDC would be one, the president of the American Academy of Pediatrics probably another. Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, the former director of medical research at the prestigious Kennedy Krieger Institute at Johns Hopkins University, would be the third.

    For years Dr. Zimmerman served as a go-to expert in “vaccine court” to dispute parental claims that vaccines caused their children’s autism. And as the reigning national expert on the topic of autism in the scientific community, Dr. Zimmerman’s opinions held tremendous weight: His written testimony helped deny the claims of the families of more than five thousand children with autism during an Omnibus Autism Proceeding in 2009 in vaccine court, as I will explain in a moment.

    In the late 1990s a young doctor fresh out of medical school joined the Kennedy Krieger Institute in Baltimore as a resident and worked closely with Dr. Zimmerman. His name was Jon Poling. In 2000 Dr. Poling’s nineteen-month-old daughter, Hannah, experienced a massive regression into autism after her vaccinations, much as happened to my son. Unlike my son, Hannah’s parents had access to the most sophisticated autism research center in the world, and Dr. Zimmerman and several of his colleagues, including Dr. Richard Kelley, who was serving as director of Kennedy Krieger’s laboratory, tried to figure out what had happened to her, and why.

    Of course, everyone at Kennedy Krieger initially approached the idea that vaccines had played a role in Hannah’s regression skeptically, including Dr. Poling himself. He was a decidedly mainstream neurologist, having attended Georgetown to get both his MD and PhD. He and his wife Teri had fully vaccinated Hannah, and he’d explain many times over the next few years that he wouldn’t have believed it if he hadn’t seen it himself.

    Through an unexpected series of events, Dr. Poling and Dr. Zimmerman, colleagues at the most prestigious autism research facility in the world, nearly ended the autism epidemic in 2008. Because of Hannah Poling, Dr. Zimmerman became convinced that vaccines are indeed capable of causing autism under certain circumstances, representing a change in his previously held positions. Like any good scientist, Dr. Zimmerman appeared willing to go where the evidence took him, even toward something as inconvenient as a vaccine-autism connection.

    Dr. Zimmerman’s professional opinion about what caused Hannah’s autism, given the tremendous weight he carried within the scientific c community and his long-time role as an expert witness, triggered a panic at both the CDC and the Department of Justice. It led to a quick twenty-million-dollar settlement with the Polings in 2010, but not before Hannah’s story became worldwide news.2

    I’ve always had so many questions about the Hannah Poling case, Dr. Zimmerman, Dr. Kelley, and Dr. Poling. Soon after the news spectacle, the Polings disappeared from the public, never to be heard from again. Sources have told me that the Department of Justice made it clear to the Polings that if they wanted to receive their vaccine court compensation, they needed to keep quiet. They appear to have complied.

    Very recently, however, Drs. Zimmerman and Kelley privately agreed to serve as expert witnesses in the first vaccine injury trial of any kind in a regular courtroom in more than thirty years. The trial is a medical negligence case in Tennessee, alleging that a pediatrician allowed a child to develop autism by vaccinating him when there was clearly excessive risk, based on previous reactions he’d had to vaccines. The boy’s name is Yates Hazlehurst, and he was one of three “test cases” in the aforementioned Omnibus Autism Proceeding back in 2009—only a year prior to the DOJ’s settlement with the Poling family—a case that was lost partially based on the written testimony of Dr. Zimmerman.3

    Drs. Zimmerman and Kelley, under oath, provided depositions for the trial as expert witnesses. What’s significant is that in the future they would be testifying on behalf of the Hazlehurst family, confirming that in Yates’s case, vaccines caused his autism. Yes, you read that right. In 2009 the Omnibus Autism Proceeding concluded that Yates Hazlehurst’s autism was not caused by vaccination, a decision based partially on Dr. Zimmerman’s testimony—and a decision that, significantly, served as the basis for denying claims to more than five thousand other children.

    Fast forward to 2017, and Drs. Kelley and Zimmerman are expert witnesses for the same child, and they are both saying, “with a reasonable degree of scientific certainty,” that vaccines caused Yates’s autism.

    Confused yet? I know I was. Let’s start at the beginning.

    The “Vaccine Court”

    If vaccines cause autism, you’d think “vaccine court” would be a great place to find the evidence for it. Compensated claims typically include extensive details about timelines, medical tests, and doctors’ opinions. They read more like case reports in medical journals than legal settlements.

    Established through the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, the original purpose of the vaccine court (officially called the United States Court of Federal Claims special masters) was to quickly and expeditiously pay any claims made by American citizens for vaccine injury. The vaccine court is buried within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and when you petition the vaccine court because of a vaccine injury, you’re actually suing the federal government, and the lawyer representing the government (and therefore opposing your claim) will be a Department of Justice lawyer. Due process in vaccine court is nonexistent. there’s no jury, just a single court-appointed “special master” who hears your case and makes a decision.

    Since 1989, when the vaccine court began to operate, these special masters have awarded more than $3.8 billion to vaccine-injured Americans (children and adults).4 Of the total cases filed since the court came into existence in 1998, there have been twelve hundred claims filed for death and eighteen thousand filed for injury. The DTP vaccine is the most common vaccine for claims to be filed against, with MMR in second place. Of the people who file claims with the court, approximately 34 percent end up receiving compensation; 2017 was actually the single biggest year for claims paid, with just over $282 million.

    Rolf Hazlehurst, an assistant attorney general from Tennessee, has been an outspoken critic of the vaccine court, particularly since he had to fight his way through it as a claimant on behalf of his son Yates, who he believes developed autism as a result of his vaccinations. In a memorandum to the US Congress in 2013, Rolf Hazlehurst described the court:

    Vaccine court is not a court of law. It is an administrative proceeding in which the most basic rules of law do not apply. In vaccine court, the Rules of Discovery, Evidence and Civil Procedure do not apply. There is also no judge or jury. In vaccine court, the American legal system has been replaced by what is known as a special master. A special master is an appointed government attorney.5

    Why Does the Vaccine Court Exist?

    This may seem like an elementary question, but it’s not. The purpose of the vaccine court is to protect the vaccine program, not to monitor vaccine safety or mete out justice. The year the vaccine court began operating—1989—is important to this story, because that’s also the birth year many point to as the beginning of a meteoric rise in the number of children with autism. Three other potentially monumental things happened in 1989: the hepatitis B vaccine was licensed, the Hib vaccine was licensed, and, for the first time, a second dose of the MMR vaccine was recommended for all American children.

    When the vaccine court was established in 1986, there were only three vaccines given in the United States—DTP, polio, and MMR—and vaccination rates hovered between 50 and 60 percent nationally.6 Today, there are eleven vaccines for children, given in multiple doses, with vaccination rates hovering around 90 percent nationally. There is an enormous difference between the market the vaccine court was created to “protect” and the market today. In raw numbers there are nearly four times as many vaccine doses given each year to children than there were in 1986, even though the US population has only grown by 0.3 in that same time period.

    Beginning in 1989, the US vaccine schedule quickly morphed from the one the vaccine court was created to support to a far larger schedule with more complexity. This isn’t a coincidence; the vaccine court removed all liability from vaccine makers, greatly altering the risk/reward calculation in their favor.

    When the court was established, the word “autism” was never even discussed. By the late 2000s autism almost brought the entire court, and the vaccine program, to a screeching halt.

    Changes Make It Nearly Impossible to Win Claims

    Few people know that the vaccine court amended its rules in 1995 to make it harder to win a claim in vaccine court, largely due to the increasing number of claims made as the vaccine schedule became bloated. By revising its Vaccine Injury Table—a list of “accepted” injuries from various vaccines, the court quietly made the standard for proving a vaccine injury much higher. As one simple example, claims for DTP shots causing brain injury were paid on roughly 25 percent of filed cases before the 1995 changes and only 5.4 percent of cases after the changes were made, a decrease of more than 80 percent.7 Testifying before Congress in 1999, Barbara Loe Fisher, the president of the National Vaccine Information Center, explained:

    The principal reason why the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has become highly adversarial and is turning away three out of four claimants is that the Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), with the assistance of the Department of Justice (DOJ), has wielded its discretionary authority to all but eliminate a just list of compensable events in the Vaccine Injury Table, thereby destroying the guiding tenet of presumption.8

    Recognizing vaccine injury is no easy task; few doctors are able to recognize any of the signs. As I first mentioned in chapter 2, the United States has a vaccine injury reporting system called the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database. Estimates are that VAERS captures roughly 1 percent of all vaccine injuries.9 How many vaccine injuries actually make it into vaccine court? A fraction of a fraction of a fraction of 1 percent. (I can’t find any accurate data, but the number is clearly tiny or the vaccine court would have exploded in size.)

    The burden is on the parents to track “adverse events,” despite the fact that pediatricians almost never explain all of the possible side effects. Parents might be told to expect redness at the injection site, swelling, maybe some fussiness or mild fever. Nothing some infant Tylenol can’t fix.

    Perusing the website of a vaccine court attorney today, you can see how strongly the decks are stacked against those injured by vaccines. Richard Gage & Associates, one of the top vaccine lawyers in the country, lets potential clients know that “obtaining compensation for a vaccine injury is a complex, sometimes extremely difficult process.”10 Parents of a child who received compensation shared their view about what the experience was like:

    DOJ [Department of Justice] attorneys were disrespectful and combative. . . . The Compensation Program should be about compensation and not about defense of the vaccine program.11

    A critical report from November 2014 about the vaccine court produced by the Government Accountability Office (a federal agency) found the court wasn’t accomplishing what it had been purportedly created to do: to make vaccine injury compensation quick and fair.12 The report noted that most claims take “multiple years to adjudicate” with 51 percent taking more than five years.

    Parents who have filed claims in the court report that the compensation program has an “adversarial environment” and a statute of limitations (three years from the date of injuries being exhibited) that reduces the likelihood that parents can even file claims. This is far worse when it comes to autism, a condition that wasn’t even contemplated when the court was created.
    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/cle...s-cause-autism
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    It is common procedure for civil suits to be settled out of court.
    Very common when pharmaceutical company profits are at stake.

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Very common when pharmaceutical company profits are at stake.
    Did you read the deposition? https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

  14. #102
    HHS failed vaccine safety provisions
    http://icandecide.org/government/ICA...-July-2018.pdf
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    It is common procedure for civil suits to be settled out of court.
    It is also common knowledge that such settlements are short hand for the accused saying "I recognize that you have a valid enough claim to interrupt my continuance of the action that injured you, and this dollar amount is what I am willing to give you to simply go away and never mention this again."

    It is also known as "hush money".
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    I didn't read the deposition.



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    I didn't read the deposition.
    I did was a fast 108 pages or so to read. Well worth it.
    https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    I did was a fast 108 pages or so to read. Well worth it.
    https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf
    I just read 12 or so pages, looks quite interesting , but I do have an allergic reaction to pdfs, ergo
    I hate them, I tried to get along with it, but they are way too tedious for me to deal with.

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    I just read 12 or so pages, looks quite interesting , but I do have an allergic reaction to pdfs, ergo
    I hate them, I tried to get along with it, but they are way too tedious for me to deal with.
    finish reading and give me a report in the morning.

  21. #108
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    finish reading and give me a report in the morning.
    I'll finish reading it as soon as someone transcribes it into a standard web page format, but without
    the Viagra/Ferrari/Pot/Bail bonds/IRS shield/Debtors Prison/ Adds

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Ethyl vs Methyl mercury. And I haven't looked at the science in the past few years, but the odd thing is that there's no documented side effects of eating fish with high mercury counts. I know last time this came up the cognitive dissonance made heads explode, but the working theory at the time was that the mercury bonded with the selenium in the fish, so it didn't bond in humans.

    I seem to recall using Japan as the most obvious example. Their diet is a very high percentage of seafood, yet they're not stupid and deformed.

    This is an example of the government being overly cautious.
    Interesting.

    This is also a great example of getting down into the weeds. Which is interesting. And profitable.

    Thanks for for teaching me something new.

  24. #111
    Although various members deny there is even a "debate" to be had on the issue of vaccine safety, the solution can be found when considering the "... little known Federal Vaccine court." Vaccines are either safe and effective and the anti-vax community are people who are either nefarious or misled; or vaccines are neither safe and effective. A super simple solution is to end this "... little known Federal Vaccine court." Transfer ALL pending litigation to civil judicial court proceedings. Why have a "special" court for vaccines? Any claim against manufacturers will surely be dismissed for lack of evidence, right? The only potential down side would be IF and only IF vaccines were not safe and effective, then there would be pesky legal matters of discovery and court precedence, that does not exist in such "special" courts. Herein lies the hypocrisy of vocal and adamant proponents of mandatory vaccinations. Manufacturers do not want to face the same legal consequence for faulty products as other industry, yet astroturf the heck out of the "safety and efficacy" of the marketed product.

  25. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Leaning Libertarian View Post
    Although various members deny there is even a "debate" to be had on the issue of vaccine safety, the solution can be found when considering the "... little known Federal Vaccine court." Vaccines are either safe and effective and the anti-vax community are people who are either nefarious or misled; or vaccines are neither safe and effective. A super simple solution is to end this "... little known Federal Vaccine court." Transfer ALL pending litigation to civil judicial court proceedings. Why have a "special" court for vaccines? Any claim against manufacturers will surely be dismissed for lack of evidence, right? The only potential down side would be IF and only IF vaccines were not safe and effective, then there would be pesky legal matters of discovery and court precedence, that does not exist in such "special" courts. Herein lies the hypocrisy of vocal and adamant proponents of mandatory vaccinations. Manufacturers do not want to face the same legal consequence for faulty products as other industry, yet astroturf the heck out of the "safety and efficacy" of the marketed product.
    That's a great idea but how do you suppose we get around the pHARMa lobbyist that pay lots of politicians to do what they want?

    Exposing this criminality of the kangaroo court is the only thing to make people more aware of this. A lot of people have no idea what is going on.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  27. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H View Post
    Interesting.

    This is also a great example of getting down into the weeds. Which is interesting. And profitable.

    Thanks for for teaching me something new.

    Myth: But the ethyl mercury in Thimerosal is less toxic than the methyl mercury in fish. After all, humans can drink ethyl alcohol even though methyl alcohol is poisonous.

    Fact: The science shows that ethyl mercury is actually more toxic than methyl mercury. While this is a common argument, it is simply untrue. In order to exonerate thimerosal, its defenders sometimes parrot the debunked industry canard that “the ethyl mercury in thimerosal is less persistent in the body and therefore less toxic than methyl mercury in fish.” However, they cannot cite a single published scientific study to support this position. That’s because the science says the opposite. Ethyl mercury is 50 times more toxic than methyl mercury (Guzzi et al, 2012) and twice as persistent in the brain (Burbacher et al, 2005).
    https://worldmercuryproject.org/thim...merosal-safety
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  28. #114
    People still hyping thimerisol more than a decade after it was removed from kids vaccines?

  29. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I'm not sure how you don't understand what moral hazard is. I suggest other readers do some searches on that term before suggesting a no-fault system makes any sense. (I will however assume Angela will not do said searches.)
    I live in a no-fault state. I love it. If we have an accident, my insurance pays for my stuff, your insurance pays for yours and the lawyers don't get rich shrieking about whose fault it was.
    I'm not seeing any indication you understood my statement. That is precisely how it "works" - the VICP pays vaccine injured subjects and their families in cases where the vaccine is officially held blameless.
    That's not how it's supposed to work. There are known side effects, called Table Injuries. Those are automatically paid. There's also a mechanism called a "causation in fact" which uses a 3-prong mechanism: a medical theory causally connecting the vaccination and the injury; a logical sequence of cause and effect showing that the vaccination was the reason for the injury; and a showing of a proximate temporal relationship between vaccination and injury.


    If the vaccine was truly blameless, no compensation would happen. This is how regular court cases "work".
    That's like saying no lawyer would ever represent the plaintiff if they knew the claim wasn't true, and neither of those statements are true. The whole reason this system exists is that crying Moms and imperfect kids on the stand played a much bigger role to the juries than actual evidence. Emotional appeals win over logic every single time, which, not coincidentally, is why liberals rule the world.
    In Angela world, what possible reason could there be to pay compensation to injured parties after officially declaring that the vaccine had nothing to do with it? What is your "complex epidemiological judgment" that could lead to such a blatantly illogical conclusion?
    Strawman.

    Or is your entire argument purely a giant hybrid "you're not an MD on the government dole so you don't get an opinion" appeal-to-authority X no-true-scotsman fallacy?[/QUOTE]

    Appeal to authority is only a fallacy when the person isn't actually an authority in the subject at hand. All opinions are not equal.

    And I want to self-righteously point out that in all this noise, nobody has mentioned any rebuttal to my proof that the original post is trash (no surprise there) based on a read of the actual document.
    Last edited by angelatc; 01-09-2019 at 12:53 PM.

  30. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Leaning Libertarian View Post
    Although various members deny there is even a "debate" to be had on the issue of vaccine safety, the solution can be found when considering the "... little known Federal Vaccine court." Vaccines are either safe and effective and the anti-vax community are people who are either nefarious or misled; or vaccines are neither safe and effective. A super simple solution is to end this "... little known Federal Vaccine court." Transfer ALL pending litigation to civil judicial court proceedings. Why have a "special" court for vaccines? Any claim against manufacturers will surely be dismissed for lack of evidence, right? The only potential down side would be IF and only IF vaccines were not safe and effective, then there would be pesky legal matters of discovery and court precedence, that does not exist in such "special" courts. Herein lies the hypocrisy of vocal and adamant proponents of mandatory vaccinations. Manufacturers do not want to face the same legal consequence for faulty products as other industry, yet astroturf the heck out of the "safety and efficacy" of the marketed product.

    OMFG. Why do people who claim they've dun ther homewerkz always the simplest questions there are? There's never a single iota of original thought.

  31. #117
    You literally have no idea what the hell you're posting, do you?

  32. #118
    Interesting info about the 2018/2019 vaccine - https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailyme...4f13#section-9

    The frequency of unsolicited adverse events occurring within 28 days of vaccination was similar in both groups (33% for both FLULAVAL QUADRIVALENT and HAVRIX). The unsolicited adverse events that occurred most frequently (≥1% for FLULAVAL QUADRIVALENT) included diarrhea, pyrexia, gastroenteritis, nasopharyngitis, upper respiratory tract infection, varicella, cough, and rhinorrhea. Serious adverse events occurring within 28 days of any vaccination were reported in 0.7% of subjects who received FLULAVAL QUADRIVALENT and in 0.2% of subjects who received HAVRIX.


    The prefilled syringe is formulated without preservatives and does not contain thimerosal. Each 0.5-mL dose from the multi-dose vial contains 50 mcg thimerosal (<25 mcg mercury); thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is added as a preservative.

  33. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Interesting info about the 2018/2019 vaccine - https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailyme...4f13#section-9
    From that link:

    0.1% reported muscle aches.
    0.4% reported headaches.
    0.1% reported fatigue.
    0.2% reported gastrointestinal symptoms.

  34. #120
    Does not a vaccine give the person the virus in a low dose so the body can build antibodies to protect from the full blown virus? Having aches and pains could/should be expected yes?



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