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Thread: Are tax cuts without reduced spending a good thing?

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure what you're reading.... To extend your analogy, it's not only that the mugger is taking less of your money, he's taking from your children instead of you! That is the problem. And yes, the absence of spending cuts is the really, really bad thing. But if you're not going to cut spending, you shouldn't put the burden on futurity!
    What if our children just decide not to pay it back? Then we'd only be burdening the ones dumb enough to loan money to the US government.
    Last edited by Madison320; 05-01-2017 at 12:44 PM.



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  3. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    What if our children just decide not to pay it back? That we'd only be burdening the ones dumb enough to loan money to the US government.
    It's still a debt laid on their backs. Whether or not they repay the debt through taxes doesn't really matter. They will pay. The future economy is going to carry the burdens of government debt just like the current economy carries the debt of our parents. Ideally, as Jefferson suggested, one generation could simply "write-off" the debt of the previous generation, but it doesn't happen that way. Usually, wars need to be fought and millions of people need to be killed.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  5. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Tax cuts are not the reason "the country doesn't have enough money."

    If that is what is going to happen, then why be opposed to people being plundered less prior to that eventual disaster?

    I'll say it again: it is a good thing if a mugger steals less of my money on the "front end," even - indeed, especially - if the money he spends on hookers and blow is going make my money worth less down the road.
    The example of a mugger stealing money from you doesn't work here. Your comparison ignores the simple but essential differences. Taxation is theft, but it operates on a deeper scale than simply being mugged.

    And you aren't calling for people to be plundered less. Because this isn't a tax cut. If you have $2 and I give you $5 today but that $5 is only worth nothing tomorrow then you aren't $5 richer. In fact you're poorer because if that $5 is worthless than the value of your original $2 has been degraded. This is what Ron Paul calls the "invisible tax" of currency devaluation. And the less money the state has but more it spends the worse that devaluation is going to happen, the more accelerated of a rate the ruining of the currency will take place. What you're advocating is what triggers hyperinflation. In other words, unless you cut taxes and spending all you are doing si advocating that people be plundered in a less obvious way not that they be plundered any less.

    And no it isn't better if the mugger spends your money automatically. That is what we all call a "bubble" and it is always worse when bubbles burst than when they began. What you're advocating is the creation of a huge spending bubble that will eventually pop, crash the economy and destroy the lives of large swaths of the American population who thought they were secure because they didn't understand how taxation, currency devaluation, and borrowing work.

    And you're right, currency devaluation, borrowing, and taxes are not all the same thing. But to ignore how they are all interrelated is dangerously naive. Will it take years? Possibly, but even if it does it will come. And it will make everyone poorer for it.

  6. #154
    Both sides of the argument are right. Spending is the tax. Cutting taxes without cutting spending does not at all mean that the government is stealing less from us. Cutting taxes without cutting spending can definitely cause problems for the federal government trying to monetize the debt or even bring about a currency crisis.

    Whatever. I don't give a $#@! if the federal government can borrow money. If they couldn't, we would all suffer in the short term (currency crisis), but be much better off in the long term (at least until they start borrowing again).

    But crashing the system isn't the only way to justify tax cuts without spending cuts. It's not their money. Cut taxes to 0. Both need to be cut, but since the spending cuts will never happen, might as well get part of it out of the way.

  7. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    To what times/places are you referring?
    I'd appreciate you answering the former part of the question.

    Pick the thousands of societies (like in medieval times) that had little government interference yet still high unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    To take the two classic example: The British depression of the 20s, from which Keynes made his incorrect inferences, was not at all a time of "low government." The British government was actively interfering in the market to prevent prices (esp. wages) from dropping in nominal terms: e.g. via novel unemployment benefit schemes and support for coercive labor unions. Hence they didn't drop (shocker!) and unemployment resulted. Same thing in the Great Depression in the US: destroying existing products, subsidizing non-production, minimum wage laws, unionization, industry-wide price fixing regimes, etc, etc.
    So the interference explains 100% of the unemployment? It seems like to you, government is always the boogeyman, with you assigning all bad outcomes to government intervention with arbitrary altitudes.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The market economy sans governmental interference.
    So basically Somalia?

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    In other words, the state of affairs which exists when property rights are universally respected.
    Universally respected...how? Via government force?

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That is an ideal, of course - has never existed - but some times/places are closer than others.

    Western economies in the 19th century were much closer to laissez faire than they are today.
    Right. What with slavery and what-not....there was also a $#@!-ton more unemployment back then. And, of course, sticky wages.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I have no idea what your reasoning is here...

    No, the private sector requires neither net imports nor government deficits to accumulate wealth. Every time output increases (which is essentially every day, in normal circumstances), the wealth of the private sector increases. Government deficits can only retard this process by redirecting toward its own wasteful purposes resources that would have otherwise increased output.
    You are confusing real wealth with financial wealth. Real financial wealth goes up like you mention; with investment and output increases. But how does the private sector net financial wealth? How does the US Domestic private sector, for example, "make" 60 billion in net financial wealth (in their bank accounts) in a year? The private sector can do this when it runs a surplus with the foreign sector (ROW) and/or a surplus with the government sector (the government has a deficit).
    Last edited by Dr.No.; 05-11-2017 at 12:39 AM.

  8. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    So basically Somalia?
    Lol.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  9. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Lol.

    The Somalia card, use it when you don't have a valid argument.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

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  10. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Lol.
    He's not giving me a clear enough definition. If the government enforces "property rights"...that is government interference! If the government stops a foreign invasion, maintains a police force, or has a judicial/prison system...that is government interference!

    What I dislike is when some poor outcome is blamed on the government, no matter its size or its function. If government has 1% interference in the market, the blame is pinned on that. If any libertarian policy doesn't lead to good outcomes, it is because it wasn't sufficiently libertarian...no different from communists who think that every far-left/communist policy that doesn't work failed because it wasn't big-government enough.

  11. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    If government has 1% interference in the market,...

    Where that be?

    By the way, why is a UK guy like you on this site making contrarian posts all the time? What is it about this site that encourages all you UK contrarians on here?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  12. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    Where that be?

    By the way, why is a UK guy like you on this site making contrarian posts all the time? What is it about this site that encourages all you UK contrarians on here?
    A troll looking for a happy place.



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  14. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    A troll looking for a happy place.

    Wasn't Dr. No a James Bond movie? Now would 007 hang out with somebody like Republican Guy? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member....-Republicanguy)
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  15. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Let me explain my thinking and we'll see if we can have an "intelligent" conversation.

    The tremendous long-term problems that we face as a country at this time do not have to do with a lack of resources. They will not be solved by an even greater abundance of resources. To the contrary, they will be exasperated. We are already too fat, too rich, and too soft. Burying our millions of whores in even more trillions of free resources will not usher in an American Renaissance. They already have enough. What would help is to yank that money away.

    Dumping the resources into the bottom of the Pacific Ocean, which is essentially what so much of the military spending is, is not nearly so insidious or destructive here at home. It doesn't work to rip down American society directly. It's just a waste.

    Give me a choice between waste and actively destroying the country, and I shall choose waste.

    Care to share any "intelligent" thoughts regarding that? Agree? Disagree? Giraffe?
    Still waiting for that "intelligent" conversation!

    I didn't know that you wanted to cut anything. You certainly had not ever mentioned that you did before, not that I remember.
    You had never seemed to oppose any spending at all, ever, your whole time here on RPF. Scientists have been able to discover zero (0) instances of your persona TheCount calling for budget cuts prior to this thread. You never met gov't spending you didn't like.

    And yet, here, in this thread, you have advanced, at least implicitly, for the first time in your career, a very healthy theory: that spending cuts would be a good thing!

    I agree wholeheartedly! Spending cuts are a great thing! You would certainly be very pleased at any prospect of federal spending being cut! Right?


    .....


    Right?

  16. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    You had never seemed to oppose any spending at all, ever, your whole time here on RPF. Scientists have been able to discover zero (0) instances of your persona TheCount calling for budget cuts prior to this thread. You never met gov't spending you didn't like.

    And yet, here, in this thread, you have advanced, at least implicitly, for the first time in your career, a very healthy theory: that spending cuts would be a good thing!

    TheCount had to change his game in light of sloppy trol--uh--posting.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  17. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Give me a choice between waste and actively destroying the country, and I shall choose waste.

    Care to share any "intelligent" thoughts regarding that? Agree? Disagree? Giraffe?
    Well waste in a free market economy would be the lifeblood of the economy. When you have a house made out of $#@! though, it doesn't work too well. One of the side effects is the encouragement malinvestment that does not get liquidated. We need lots of corrections to be made in the economy before we can ever dream about waste being beneficial.

  18. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    dream about waste being beneficial.
    I do not have such dreams. I am using the word "waste" in a very simple, face-value way. When resources are wasted they are put to no good use. Down the drain. I am making a simple logical point.

    With waste, you lose on the front end.
    With spending on things that actively destroy the country, you lose on the front end and on the back end.

  19. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post



    It seems like to you, government is always the boogeyman, with you assigning all bad outcomes to government intervention with arbitrary altitudes.
    It seems like to you that merchants are always the boogeyman, with you assigning all bad outcomes to businessmen making their own decisions.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  20. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    It seems like to you that merchants are always the boogeyman, with you assigning all bad outcomes to businessmen making their own decisions.
    It seems you like the government encouraging people to buy houses they can't afford by encouraging banks to give loans out to people who can't afford them.

  21. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    It seems you like the government encouraging people to buy houses they can't afford by encouraging banks to give loans out to people who can't afford them.

    Come again?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members



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  23. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    Come again?
    You heard me, you are embarrassing, you are embracing and endorsing the idea of the government picking winners and losers by perpetuating the idea that lowering taxes is better then not lowering taxes when that's a straw mans argument.

  24. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    You heard me, you are embarrassing, you are embracing and endorsing the idea of the government picking winners and losers by perpetuating the idea that lowering taxes is better then not lowering taxes when that's a straw mans argument.
    I don't even know what you're talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  25. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    I don't even know what you're talking about.
    You claim that was the argument OP was making. The argument, although rather worded should of been should the government just reduce taxes (and regulation) and increase spending(or keep current spending levels) or should we actually have real cuts to government, cut spending the real tax? Then you proceeded to embarrass yourself by making straw man arguments with yourself.

  26. #172

  27. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    You claim that was the argument OP was making.
    My post to which you replied was addressed to Dr. NO, not the OP.



    The argument, although rather worded should of been should the government just reduce taxes (and regulation) and increase spending(or keep current spending levels) or should we actually have real cuts to government, cut spending the real tax?

    Sorry, I don't speak Syntactical Gobbledygook, but maybe I should have been should studied it in school.

    Then you proceeded to embarrass yourself...
    See your English above.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  28. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    My post to which you replied was addressed to Dr. NO, not the OP.






    Sorry, I don't speak Syntactical Gobbledygook, but maybe I should have been should studied it in school.



    See your English above.
    I tried to simplify it as much as i can. Sorry if you don't understand maybe you should watch the liberty report episode where Ron Paul talks about it.
    https://youtu.be/rthogdho6Sc?t=891

    If you have time to argue with people on here and not watch Ron Paul then trading taxes for other taxes is not a decrease of taxes. All you are encouraging is replacing our current taxes with an inflation tax.

  29. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I tried to simplify it as much as i can. Sorry if you don't understand maybe you should watch the liberty report episode where Ron Paul talks about it.

    I will try to simplify it.

    1. There are trolls on this site.

    2. They are not your friends.

    3. Maybe you should pay attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  30. #176
    ...oops, wrong thread.



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