Is It Really Possible to "Pump" heat?

[Anti Federalist]

is there something about this subject matter, that attacks the peoples religious faith? and if so, what do you suppose that it is?

No, it is the way in which you present it: with snark, condescension and smarmy comments.

That, interspersed with outright incorrect information or bull$#@!, and it doesn't make for a pleasant or informative discussion.

[erowe1]

once upon a time, I asked the local college HVAC/R instructor, "why is Latent heat not taught as the 4TH method of heat transfer"

That was a mistake. You should have asked a physicist. He wouldn't have given you a wrong answer like that professor of janitorial studies did.

[HVACTech]

No, it is the way in which you present it: with snark, condescension and smarmy comments.

That, interspersed with outright incorrect information or bull$#@!, and it doesn't make for a pleasant or informative discussion.

where did I give incorrect information sir?

[HVACTech]

I don't know about whether or not it's possible to pump heat, but this thread provides more than ample evidence that the bloviations of certain individuals can and do produce massive quantities of hot air.

yeah, I find that a bit fascinating. unlike politics, you cannot bluff or bully your way through a conversation about them..
without making an ASS of yourself.

does this mean that you doubt the very existence of heat pumps? and consider them to be a possible fraud?

[HVACTech]

That was a mistake. You should have asked a physicist. He wouldn't have given you a wrong answer like that professor of janitorial studies did.

by now.. I would think that you are certainly aware that latent heat exists. and is based on sound, proven and verifiable scientific principles.
or is that STILL a point of contention with you?

WHY do humans sweat erowe1?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...rmo/sweat.html

Heat Transfer by Vaporization

If part of a liquid evaporates, it cools the liquid remaining behind because it must extract the necessary heat of vaporization from that liquid in order to make the phase change to the gaseous state. It is therefore an important means of heat transfer in certain circumstances, such as the cooling of the human body when it is subjected to ambient temperatures above the normal body temperature.

[Anti Federalist]

where did I give incorrect information sir?

Just in this thread, you said there was no frozen foods in grocery stores before 1955.

Clearly you are wrong about that, and I posted supporting information showing you to be wrong, by at least 20 years.

[acptulsa]

Just in this thread, you said there was no frozen foods in grocery stores before 1955.

Clearly you are wrong about that, and I posted supporting information showing you to be wrong, by at least 20 years.

R-12 was invented by Charles Kettering at about the time Frigidaire was founded in the 1920s, and by 1952 the Santa Fe Railway began using piggyback service (trailers on flat cars, or TOFC) to compete with established trucking companies with mechanically refigerated trailers with their own mechanically refrigerated trailers--because mechanically refrigerated rail cars had been invented, but lettuce growers tended to boycott any railroad which used them.

They don't dry out the lettuce and make it limp the way they used to, by the way.

That's almost certainly where he got that date--1955 was indeed the year mechanically refrigerated rail cars which could maintain frozen food first appeared on American railroads. But the detail he missed was that was the culmination of an epic battle, and the fresh fruit and lettuce shippers lost that battle because even by 1952 frozen food was much, much too popular to ignore any more.

[HVACTech]

Just in this thread, you said there was no frozen foods in grocery stores before 1955.

Clearly you are wrong about that, and I posted supporting information showing you to be wrong, by at least 20 years.

so, in this thread... I have explained.
why it rains.
how the sun heats the earth.
why clouds form.
identified the power behind hurricanes
and tornadoes.
correctly identified "mother natures" refrigeration cycle.
proven that humans sweat.
explained what cooling towers and swamp coolers are.
and how they work.
pissed on hillary clinton
introduced and discussed latent heat.
correctly identified it as a heat transfer method.
and more...
all in the effort (much needed it appears) to explain both the operation of and also to confirm the existence of "heat-pumps" (yes, Virginia, they are real)
and they are not hiding under your bed.

and that is all you got? OK, you can have that one.

what about Albert Einstein and HIS "icy balls" ?
do you now understand why both of those efforts failed Virginia?

[HVACTech]

R-12 was invented by Charles Kettering at about the time Frigidaire was founded in the 1920s, and by 1952 the Santa Fe Railway began using piggyback service (trailers on flat cars, or TOFC) to compete with established trucking companies with mechanically refigerated trailers with their own mechanically refrigerated trailers--because mechanically refrigerated rail cars had been invented, but lettuce growers tended to boycott any railroad which used them.

They don't dry out the lettuce and make it limp the way they used to, by the way.

That's almost certainly where he got that date--1955 was indeed the year mechanically refrigerated rail cars which could maintain frozen food first appeared on American railroads. But the detail he missed was that was the culmination of an epic battle, and the fresh fruit and lettuce shippers lost that battle because even by 1952 frozen food was much, much too popular to ignore any more.

man, you got me feeling like a scalded dog here...
and yes. it really is true that in medium and low temp applications. that we are not interested in latent heat removal from the air. (humidity) it is a pest and a bother.. sorta like my ex-wife..come to think of it...

in a walk in cooler, place the vegetables and such underneath the evaporator. (the return air steam) this is the warmest area.
place the milk and meats... and especially the beer! in the discharge air stream.

[luctor-et-emergo]

BTW, correct me if I'm saying something entirely stupid but....

Isn't a 'Peltier-element' a heat-pump in the most basic definition of the word ? It moves heat energy from one side to another employing/using an electrical current...

[HVACTech]

BTW, correct me if I'm saying something entirely stupid but....

Isn't a 'Peltier-element' a heat-pump in the most basic definition of the word ? It moves heat energy from one side to another employing/using an electrical current...

not at all. and yes. it indeed is. like many other types. it has a very low COP (coefficient of performance) basically it is not worth jacking with. (too weak)

by erowe1's standard. "heat" only flows... downhill, higher to lower. this is why he cannot comprehend "heat pumps"

latent heat, blows away ALL other heat transfer methods.

Mother nature understands this. so, the question is.. why do the people, have such trouble with it?

do you think that it violates his definition of Entropy? mebbe?

[erowe1]

by now.. I would think that you are certainly aware that latent heat exists.

By now?

The existence of latent heat has never been in question. But it's not a method of heat transfer. By now I think it's safe to say that you finally have come to realize that. You just can't admit you were wrong.

[erowe1]

If part of a liquid evaporates, it cools the liquid remaining behind because it must extract the necessary heat of vaporization from that liquid in order to make the phase change to the gaseous state.

And how does it extract that heat?

By conduction.

[erowe1]

WHY do humans sweat erowe1?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...rmo/sweat.html

This is rich. I just now clicked your link. I'm sorry I didn't before my previous response.

Did you happen to read the first sentence?

[HVACTech]

And how does it extract that heat?

By conduction.

yah, that is why we call it saturated suction temperature. (SST) this has NOTHING to do with HB34 sir.
(it has to do with the final evaporating temp... in the uh... evaporator. sir)

I can go back to describing how to read that gauge that I posted.. if you would like sir.
but alas, I simply cannot use smaller words..

are you STILL against forced convection? and what does that have to do with turbulence anyhow?
force is ALWAYS very bad... right?

[HVACTech]

By now?

The existence of latent heat has never been in question. But it's not a method of heat transfer. By now I think it's safe to say that you finally have come to realize that. You just can't admit you were wrong.

let me see if I got this right your magnificence.

Latent heat exists. but there is NO heat transfer involved.

did I do good sir?

[acptulsa]

Latent heat exists. but there is NO heat transfer involved.

Ouch.

Chaste women are one thing. But hot chaste women just hurt.

[HVACTech]

Ouch.

Chaste women are one thing. But hot chaste women just hurt.

well.. damn.
that would certainly explain why my ex wife hates me...

any suggestions for redemption?

[Anti Federalist]

No you didn't.

You slung around a bunch of disjointed factoids and half truths and bull$#@!.

If anybody coming into this thread learned anything about heat transfer and operations, it was from the posts by erowe and acptulsa.

Which also showed that latent heat is not a true heat transfer method.

so, in this thread... I have explained.
why it rains.
how the sun heats the earth.
why clouds form.
identified the power behind hurricanes
and tornadoes.
correctly identified "mother natures" refrigeration cycle.
proven that humans sweat.
explained what cooling towers and swamp coolers are.
and how they work.
pissed on hillary clinton
introduced and discussed latent heat.
correctly identified it as a heat transfer method.
and more...
all in the effort (much needed it appears) to explain both the operation of and also to confirm the existence of "heat-pumps" (yes, Virginia, they are real)
and they are not hiding under your bed.

and that is all you got? OK, you can have that one.

what about Albert Einstein and HIS "icy balls" ?
do you now understand why both of those efforts failed Virginia?

[Anti Federalist]

This is rich. I just now clicked your link. I'm sorry I didn't before my previous response.

Did you happen to read the first sentence?

For those who don't click through...

When the ambient temperature is above body temperature, then radiation, conduction and convection all transfer heat into the body rather than out.

[HVACTech]

For those who don't click through...

When the ambient temperature is above body temperature, then radiation, conduction and convection all transfer heat into the body rather than out.

YOU are a frickin SUPER genius! or...

this is just an example of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, that you looked up on Wikipedia...
is latent heat transfer prohibited at that point?
or,
is latent heat transfer the ONLY one available under said conditions? sir.
would this be an example of a hot body desperately pumping heat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV9lTNtDd5U

[HVACTech]

No you didn't.

You slung around a bunch of disjointed factoids and half truths and bull$#@!.

If anybody coming into this thread learned anything about heat transfer and operations, it was from the posts by erowe and acptulsa.

Which also showed that latent heat is not a true heat transfer method.

so, Latent heat IS a heat transfer method... it is just not a true. heat transfer method.

will YOU stand by that claim sir?

have you noticed that this sounds a LOT like your political positions? (if you had one of course, that is)

[HVACTech]

And how does it extract that heat?

By conduction.

things suddenly got pretty quiet in here... (I am thinking it is time to play nice again )

it is possible that this is... at least partially correct. my engineering school was quite explicit on this point. (this was in the mid 80's)
EXACTLY HOW this transfer takes place, is only partially understood. to my knowledge, this remains true to this very day.
how to make it kick ass and take names is well known. maximize the phase change. period.

this thread has benefited me you know... I am not as sharp at explaining this stuff as I used to be... hell, I almost forgot how to draw a P-H diagram! curse's!

and I used to draw them on them on the board for $#@!z and giggles!
here it is, and yes Virginia, it includes "heat-pumps"

http://www.jsrae.or.jp/jsrae/stady/Eng%20saikuru.htm

[acptulsa]

And the answer is, no. It is not possible to pump heat.

You can pump hot air, you can pump hot water, you can pump refrigerant and move heat out, or in, you can pump gas which will be burned for heat when it gets to where you're pumping it, you can pump hot anti-freeze to a radiator where the heat is transferred one way or another, and you can pump air over coils which are either full of heat for it to absorb or void of heat and ready to absorb the stuff.

But you cannot pump heat. Not even with a heat pump.

We wish we could pump heat. If we could, no doubt we would find doing so is far, far less expensive and more efficient than compressing refrigerant.

[HVACTech]

And the answer is, no. It is not possible to pump heat.

You can pump hot air, you can pump hot water, you can pump refrigerant and move heat out, or in, you can pump gas which will be burned for heat when it gets to where you're pumping it, you can pump hot anti-freeze to a radiator where the heat is transferred one way or another, and you can pump air over coils which are either full of heat for it to absorb or void of heat and ready to absorb the stuff.

But you cannot pump heat. Not even with a heat pump.

We wish we could pump heat. If we could, no doubt we would find doing so is far, far less expensive and more efficient than compressing refrigerant.

I am good with that! HVACTech, over and outta here!
@acptulsa I logged back in to explain why I did that. it looks like you are moving in the direction of defining WHAT heat is.
my understanding is that it has to do with the orbits of atoms. specifically the space between the orbits.
the more heat, the higher the orbits. and vice versa.
to my knowledge, this was confirmed by the bose-einstein condensate. which was achieved in...93 I am thinking.
anyhow, when the last bit of heat was removed... the orbits collapsed and turned into a wave.

so, no. I really don't want to "go there" with these folks.

[luctor-et-emergo]

I am good with that! HVACTech, over and outta here!
@acptulsa I logged back in to explain why I did that. it looks like you are moving in the direction of defining WHAT heat is.
my understanding is that it has to do with the orbits of atoms. specifically the space between the orbits.
the more heat, the higher the orbits. and vice versa.
to my knowledge, this was confirmed by the bose-einstein condensate. which was achieved in...93 I am thinking.
anyhow, when the last bit of heat was removed... the orbits collapsed and turned into a wave.

so, no. I really don't want to "go there" with these folks.

Why not go there ? Because atoms is something luc knows a thing or two about ? Screw refrigeration, I know just about nothing about that. I'm building my own oven but not my own fridge. Although I did build a more powerful Peltier cooled cooler to keep my caught fish in.

Anyways, next question; is heat kinetic energy ?

[Anti Federalist]

R-12 was invented by Charles Kettering at about the time Frigidaire was founded in the 1920s, and by 1952 the Santa Fe Railway began using piggyback service (trailers on flat cars, or TOFC) to compete with established trucking companies with mechanically refigerated trailers with their own mechanically refrigerated trailers--because mechanically refrigerated rail cars had been invented, but lettuce growers tended to boycott any railroad which used them.

They don't dry out the lettuce and make it limp the way they used to, by the way.

That's almost certainly where he got that date--1955 was indeed the year mechanically refrigerated rail cars which could maintain frozen food first appeared on American railroads. But the detail he missed was that was the culmination of an epic battle, and the fresh fruit and lettuce shippers lost that battle because even by 1952 frozen food was much, much too popular to ignore any more.

Quite possible.

I posted the history of Clarence Birdseye and the founding of General Foods, which by 1935, was supplying retail frozen foods to grocery and general stores all across the country.

I'm re-reading the biography by Mark Kurlansky, fascinating man, I highly recommend it.

http://www.amazon.com/Birdseye-Adven...words=Birdseye

[HVACTech]

Why not go there ? Because atoms is something luc knows a thing or two about ? Screw refrigeration, I know just about nothing about that. I'm building my own oven but not my own fridge. Although I did build a more powerful Peltier cooled cooler to keep my caught fish in.

Anyways, next question; is heat kinetic energy ?

heh, so. I asked another master of applied thermodynamics.. why the hell do the people freak out over this subject. ?
we have both been observing this for years...

and he reminded me why the founders went to the pub specifically to discus "politics"
"dogs and drunks don't lie"

my understanding sir. is that the "nature" of heat.
was confirmed in 93. when the "Bose Einstein condensate" was achieved and observed.

today sir. the "nature" of waves is still not fully understood either.

or, did I miss something?

"waves" produce "energy" this took years to get rid of and take a measurement.

[erowe1]

heh, so. I asked another master of applied thermodynamics.. why the hell do the people freak out over this subject. ?

That was the wrong question. Instead you should have asked him if latent heat was a method of heat transfer. He would have answered no, of course.

This is assuming that "master of applied thermodynamics" isn't just another of your code words for an HVAC Tech.

[GunnyFreedom]

not at all. and yes. it indeed is. like many other types. it has a very low COP (coefficient of performance) basically it is not worth jacking with. (too weak)

by erowe1's standard. "heat" only flows... downhill, higher to lower. this is why he cannot comprehend "heat pumps"

latent heat, blows away ALL other heat transfer methods.

Mother nature understands this. so, the question is.. why do the people, have such trouble with it?

do you think that it violates his definition of Entropy? mebbe?

The words radiation, conduction and convection are all nouns that point to verbs: radiate, conduct, and convect. "Latent" is an adjective, describing a quality of a given substance. "White Paint" is not a method of coloring houses, it is a quality of certain paints that may be used to color houses. The latency of thermokinetic energy describes the quality of the amount of potential energy that may be transformed into kinetic. A quality of high latency will create a larger thermokinetic differential, and therefore lends itself to mechanical refrigeration. The problem is you are using the word completely wrong.