The Car Biz Goes Full Clover

[cajuncocoa]

Until they mandate older vehicles off the road none of this crap is going to affect me. But I'm assuming that day is coming.

Same here. I love my late model vehicle.

[Ronin Truth]

So how will the Auto Manufacturers resist the urge to increase their profits even further by selling this information to your Insurance Carrier, who wants this information, so they can, in turn, justify jacking up your insurance rates every time you go so much as one mile per hour over, dont buckle your seatbelt, dont use a blinker / turn signal, and any conditions where computer take-over braking is deemed necessary? The only Freedoms that an individual will be left with in any Corporatocracy will be the Freedom by which to hang ones self, no other freedoms will be permitted.

Don't insurance companies have the right and duty to attempt to keep and grow their profits and minimize their risks?

Hint: the answer is 'Yes'.

[DamianTV]

Don't insurance companies have the right and duty to attempt to keep and grow their profits and minimize their risks?

Hint: the answer is 'Yes'.

Respectfully disagree. Companies and governments have no rights, only privileges granted to them by the people, either through contract or consent of being governed. Companies will want the Right to make money, but will refuse to take the equal responsibility that comes with that Right. People are the only ones that should ever have true Rights acknowledged. Which now makes this a war between the Rights of the individual, and the Privileges of the corporations. Companies will put profits ahead of Rights damn near every single time, and is exactly what enabled companies to charge exorbitant quantities of money for health insurance coverage and refuse to pay for any care. Its that same mentality that has caused the US to have the most expensive health care in the world with the unhealthiest people of any non third world country.

I know you know better than to mistake the Rights and Permissions. The way they constantly use one word in place of where the other belongs is very confusing for many people, and I catch myself doing it at times too.

---

(Note: @Ronin - this part isnt directed at you at all, its a general rant against Entitlements and the differences between Rights, Limits, Provisionality and Contract Law)

Edit: Its not that I dont want to see companies not making money. The concept has been the backbone of American Entrepreneurship since the birth of this country. What I have an issue with is the way that these companies are making their money. They are deceptive, legally abusive, intimidating, coercive, unjust, and financial bullies. Just as there are honest men and women of every walk of life, there are also dishonest people. Ive got nothing against those who earn their money honestly. I have major issues with those who do not earn money, but rather steal it from people. Its the same reason as so many of us have major trust issues with Big Banks. Its not the employees, but those at the top who decide how best to threaten. And their methods have been legalized to the point where their victims have absolutely no recourse against their tactics. The language they use allows them to change the conditions of their contract at any time, and by that very standard, would never be considered as a legal and valid contract.

The only way I can explain this is with an analogy. Start with an honest guy that sells a burger for a buck. So far so good. But give that honest guy the power of gods and governments. If the guy chooses to make an ever increasingly crappier product, and decides the price of that product should be determined by what religion a person chooses to follow, charging Muslims $50 bucks for a very crappy product, but Christians $49 bucks, and Shinto $3.79, they create an unequal distribution of their products based on information they should not have access to in the first place.

Next, Insurance in and of itself is more like legalized gambling. Throw in a money system where the value of the money continues to evaporate, and these companies become desperate to stay in business. I would like as much as the next guy to see the honest ones stay in business, but throw in Govt Intervention and the problem becomes even more of a mucky mess. With Govt Intervention and unlimited power of corruption, these companies can have laws pass that prohibit competition and force people to pay them. Its often said the best business to be in is in the business of government. This is why. And there are so many contributing factors from so many sources that blame cant always be placed squarely on the companies, but there are way too many enabling factors that only encourage dishonest behavior. If we did not have a money system where the value of the money had evaporated to the point that it had, we would see the common man most likely able to afford to take financial responsiblity for their own actions, and the need for insurance to begin with would not be as heavily forced upon us as it is. Another perspective is the burger maker puts a gun to the head of a random passerby and demands $75 bucks in exchange for the worst quality product they could produce. I'd consider that to be as dishonest as it could be, and is basically what happens today in far too many situations.

Big business seems to want all the Rights of people, but because they are almost never held accountable for major crimes, that avoidance of the equal Responsibility is why no business should ever be recognized as having a Right. They turn Rights into Exclusivity. They have a Right, and you and I dont. They bear no responsibility, while you and I do. Who got jailed in this country when the economy went south in 2008? The poor people, not the ones that ran the companies that drove the economy into the ground. The owner of an honest business knows that they must earn that money. They do so by continuing to earn the trust of each and every customer, each and every time. They know they need to manage their finances and earn enough to pay their bills, but not charge so much as to drive customers away. Even then, they know that they have no Right to take money from people. The only thing that grants any expectation of money is that another person has willingly entered into an agreement with them, and goods and / or services are provided. What they expect (usually considered a Right) is completely provisional upon the terms of their agreement with their customers. And they most certainly do not exploit the invasion of privacy to determine the prices of their products and services, then extort that money from their clients.

It is due to the Provisionality of the conditions of an agreement that no business can have a "Right" to make money. Rights are defined by the equal Rights of others. A person has Unlimited Rights unto themselves, and unto themselves alone. The limits of those Rights are defined by the Equal Rights of others. And just as we both have a Right to do what ever we want to ourselves, I do not believe either of us have any Right that infringes on the Equal Rights of others. We have a Right to think what ever we want to think, but those Rights end when we enter into the concept of Entitlements. I dont think we have any Right to expect anyone to educate our kids, provide welfare, or demand products or services. The Entitlements completely infringes on the Equal Rights of others. Welfare is basically forcing money from poor people with bit of money, and giving it to those who want it. There can be no Right to Welfare because it infringes on the Equal Rights of others. Welfare can be had, but it cant be recognized as either an Entitlement or a Right. It needs to be recognized under Contract Law. Welfare can be charitable. Welfare can be many things, but can not be recognized as a Right, or as an Entitlement.

When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he can either choose to cease to be mistaken, or choose to cease to be honest. Corporations have the same choice, and far too often in the US of A, they have chosen to cease to be honest.

[Mach]

And as you sign the contracts on your new car you will be notified of a particular clause releasing everyone from any responsibility for "YOUR" accidents.

I do not see how hey can even allow those things on the road, it's one of those safety inventions that go against human instinct and will never catch on.

[Ronin Truth]

Respectfully disagree. Companies and governments have no rights, only privileges granted to them by the people, either through contract or consent of being governed. Companies will want the Right to make money, but will refuse to take the equal responsibility that comes with that Right. People are the only ones that should ever have true Rights acknowledged. Which now makes this a war between the Rights of the individual, and the Privileges of the corporations. Companies will put profits ahead of Rights damn near every single time, and is exactly what enabled companies to charge exorbitant quantities of money for health insurance coverage and refuse to pay for any care. Its that same mentality that has caused the US to have the most expensive health care in the world with the unhealthiest people of any non third world country.

I know you know better than to mistake the Rights and Permissions. The way they constantly use one word in place of where the other belongs is very confusing for many people, and I catch myself doing it at times too.

---

(Note: @Ronin - this part isnt directed at you at all, its a general rant against Entitlements and the differences between Rights, Limits, Provisionality and Contract Law)

Edit: Its not that I dont want to see companies not making money. The concept has been the backbone of American Entrepreneurship since the birth of this country. What I have an issue with is the way that these companies are making their money. They are deceptive, legally abusive, intimidating, coercive, unjust, and financial bullies. Just as there are honest men and women of every walk of life, there are also dishonest people. Ive got nothing against those who earn their money honestly. I have major issues with those who do not earn money, but rather steal it from people. Its the same reason as so many of us have major trust issues with Big Banks. Its not the employees, but those at the top who decide how best to threaten. And their methods have been legalized to the point where their victims have absolutely no recourse against their tactics. The language they use allows them to change the conditions of their contract at any time, and by that very standard, would never be considered as a legal and valid contract.

The only way I can explain this is with an analogy. Start with an honest guy that sells a burger for a buck. So far so good. But give that honest guy the power of gods and governments. If the guy chooses to make an ever increasingly crappier product, and decides the price of that product should be determined by what religion a person chooses to follow, charging Muslims $50 bucks for a very crappy product, but Christians $49 bucks, and Shinto $3.79, they create an unequal distribution of their products based on information they should not have access to in the first place.

Next, Insurance in and of itself is more like legalized gambling. Throw in a money system where the value of the money continues to evaporate, and these companies become desperate to stay in business. I would like as much as the next guy to see the honest ones stay in business, but throw in Govt Intervention and the problem becomes even more of a mucky mess. With Govt Intervention and unlimited power of corruption, these companies can have laws pass that prohibit competition and force people to pay them. Its often said the best business to be in is in the business of government. This is why. And there are so many contributing factors from so many sources that blame cant always be placed squarely on the companies, but there are way too many enabling factors that only encourage dishonest behavior. If we did not have a money system where the value of the money had evaporated to the point that it had, we would see the common man most likely able to afford to take financial responsiblity for their own actions, and the need for insurance to begin with would not be as heavily forced upon us as it is. Another perspective is the burger maker puts a gun to the head of a random passerby and demands $75 bucks in exchange for the worst quality product they could produce. I'd consider that to be as dishonest as it could be, and is basically what happens today in far too many situations.

Big business seems to want all the Rights of people, but because they are almost never held accountable for major crimes, that avoidance of the equal Responsibility is why no business should ever be recognized as having a Right. They turn Rights into Exclusivity. They have a Right, and you and I dont. They bear no responsibility, while you and I do. Who got jailed in this country when the economy went south in 2008? The poor people, not the ones that ran the companies that drove the economy into the ground. The owner of an honest business knows that they must earn that money. They do so by continuing to earn the trust of each and every customer, each and every time. They know they need to manage their finances and earn enough to pay their bills, but not charge so much as to drive customers away. Even then, they know that they have no Right to take money from people. The only thing that grants any expectation of money is that another person has willingly entered into an agreement with them, and goods and / or services are provided. What they expect (usually considered a Right) is completely provisional upon the terms of their agreement with their customers. And they most certainly do not exploit the invasion of privacy to determine the prices of their products and services, then extort that money from their clients.

It is due to the Provisionality of the conditions of an agreement that no business can have a "Right" to make money. Rights are defined by the equal Rights of others. A person has Unlimited Rights unto themselves, and unto themselves alone. The limits of those Rights are defined by the Equal Rights of others. And just as we both have a Right to do what ever we want to ourselves, I do not believe either of us have any Right that infringes on the Equal Rights of others. We have a Right to think what ever we want to think, but those Rights end when we enter into the concept of Entitlements. I dont think we have any Right to expect anyone to educate our kids, provide welfare, or demand products or services. The Entitlements completely infringes on the Equal Rights of others. Welfare is basically forcing money from poor people with bit of money, and giving it to those who want it. There can be no Right to Welfare because it infringes on the Equal Rights of others. Welfare can be had, but it cant be recognized as either an Entitlement or a Right. It needs to be recognized under Contract Law. Welfare can be charitable. Welfare can be many things, but can not be recognized as a Right, or as an Entitlement.

When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he can either choose to cease to be mistaken, or choose to cease to be honest. Corporations have the same choice, and far too often in the US of A, they have chosen to cease to be honest.

Thank you for the correction, I mispoke. Don't the owners and stockholders have the right and duty to attempt to keep and grow their profits and minimize their risks?

[Anti Federalist]

Don't insurance companies have the right and duty to attempt to keep and grow their profits and minimize their risks?

Hint: the answer is 'Yes'.

Right...and we have the right not to buy their products.

Oh, except that we do not have that right.

If I was free to buy, or not buy, or tailor what I buy to my needs, then I would have no issue with what you said.

But I am mandated by federal law to "buy" health insurance and am mandated by state law (except in NH and few other states) to buy car insurance and soon will be mandated to buy even more types of insurance.

So, if you are going to lobby government to force me, at gunpoint, to buy your product, I, in turn say to the insurance mafia:

"$#@! your business, $#@! your shareholders, $#@! your profit margin, $#@! your employees and $#@! $#@!ing you."

Get out of my life, get out of my data, get out of my car.

[DamianTV]

Thank you for the correction, I mispoke. Don't the owners and stockholders have the right and duty to attempt to keep and grow their profits and minimize their risks?

No problem.

Stockholders: Um, I think there can be expectation and responsibility without necessarily being a Right. The Limits of Rights are defined only by the equal rights of others. Since our government says we no longer have a Right to not pay for health insurance (making it mandatory), then these same companies can not have an equal Right to make money off of us. That is an "Exclusive Right" which meets the definition of "Privilege" because it is not equal between all men, has conditions, and is revokable.

[Ronin Truth]

Right...and we have the right not to buy their products.

Oh, except that we do not have that right.

If I was free to buy, or not buy, or tailor what I buy to my needs, then I would have no issue with what you said.

But I am mandated by federal law to "buy" health insurance and am mandated by state law (except in NH and few other states) to buy car insurance and soon will be mandated to buy even more types of insurance.

So, if you are going to lobby government to force me, at gunpoint, to buy your product, I, in turn say to the insurance mafia:

"$#@! your business, $#@! your shareholders, $#@! your profit margin, $#@! your employees and $#@! $#@!ing you."

Get out of my life, get out of my data, get out of my car.

Is self-insurance a financial option for you? If not, I'd have to say that you need insurance, just to CYA. Find the best cheapest one that does the job.

It would still be a good responsible idea, even in Anarchy-world. If I owned the roads, I'm pretty sure that my insurance company would require the customers of the road to have insurance too.

[opal]

[Anti Federalist]

Is self-insurance a financial option for you? If not, I'd have to say that you need insurance, just to CYA. Find the best cheapest one that does the job.

It would still be a good responsible idea, even in Anarchy-world. If I owned the roads I'm pretty sure that my insurance company would require the customers of the road to have it too.

That's you and me, one old man to another, with hard assets to protect.

To a young man, or someone in a vastly different financial place, maybe it would not be such a wise expenditure.

Regardless, the whole argument goes out the window, once the threat of the government gun on the negotiating table is known and understood.

[Ronin Truth]

That's you and me, one old man to another, with hard assets to protect.

To a young man, or someone in a vastly different financial place, maybe it would not be such a wise expenditure.

Regardless, the whole argument goes out the window, once the threat of the government gun on the negotiating table is known and understood.

Injuring or killing folks and/or destroying property, would be a heavy life changing liability for the young, at fault, drivers too. Actually, on average, they are much more of a threat and risk to the rest of us, on the roads. Hence their much higher insurance rate premiums.

[pcosmar]

For a mental project and curiosity,, I priced out (mostly) the cost of building one..

Complete from the ground up,, all improved over OEM.

And including a pristine body to start with. 200k

a supercharged road eater that sips pump gas,, when you can keep your foot out of it.

Edelbrock GM crate,, Roush for Ford Coyote

we can still dream

[Anti Federalist]

Injuring or killing folks and/or destroying property, would be a heavy life changing liability for the young, at fault, drivers too. Actually, on average, they are much more of a threat and risk to the rest of us, on the roads. Hence their much higher insurance rate premiums.

An incentive to drive better then.

[Anti Federalist]

For a mental project and curiosity,, I priced out (mostly) the cost of building one..

Complete from the ground up,, all improved over OEM.

And including a pristine body to start with. 200k

a supercharged road eater that sips pump gas,, when you can keep your foot out of it.

Edelbrock GM crate,, Roush for Ford Coyote

we can still dream

That's a full, body off, frame up restoration with new power.

I priced them 10 years ago, and they were asking $150,000 then.

Too bad most of what they offer is electronic gee-gaws and associated bull$#@! I do not want.

http://grandwagoneer.com/

Restorations offer the modern upgrades that everyone wants, including, but certainly not limited to:

Ultra high-grade UV blocking Window Tint, including an optional tint that rejects a majority of IR radiation and heat, in addition to near 100% UV protection for you and your valuable interior
Remote activated and programmable Alarm Systems
Optional modern, extra-large sunroof/moonroof assemblies with one-touch operation
Touch-screen Navigation with voice guidance
DVD player
MP3/SD/USB memory playing capacity
Full IPOD integration
Built in Bluetooth and voice command systems
Optional 2-stage Heated Seats
Rear View Camera functionality (with parking guide)
Wireless Tire Pressure and Temperature monitoring systems with low-pressure alarm
HID (high intensity discharge) headlights
Halogen and/or ancillary reverse lights
Satellite Radio
USB charging ports for modern cell phones, Ipads and electronics
110v electrical converters
Keyless Entry
Wireless Steering Wheel Remotes
Dome Light Supervision
Remote Engine Start
Remote Rear Window Operation
Race-style emergency fire extinguishers
Custom embroidered and color matched Floor Mats
Ultra-high quality Sound Systems that feature the finest high fidelity Speakers, and optional custom Subwoofer assembly with dedicated amplifier

Furthermore, I also offer my selective clients a tremendous choice in additional, very significant performance, electronic, convenience, mechanical and cosmetic upgrade options that go far beyond the original design and capabilities of the Grand Wagoneer. In fact, I offer over 120 upgrades in these various categories that go above and beyond the “standard” work that you see listed on this website!! These additional upgrades offer increased utility and convenience, better appearance, increased reliability, better performance and more comfort than was available originally, from the factory. Some of these performance and convenience upgrades (available at an extra charge)include:

Ultra High Power Engine Upgrades (3 stages) up to over 400 horsepower and 400 foot pounds of torque in either original AMC form, or using brand new, modern design GM powerplants
Full conversion to either Direct Port or Throttle Body modern, computer controlled and custom programmed Electronic Fuel Injection
Multiple High Performance Brake System Upgrades, including full hydraulic brake systems that massively increase stopping power
High Performance Transmission builds with upgraded internal components and high performance Torque Converters using either the original equipment Chrysler 727 transmissions or brand new, ultra-modern electronic 4 and 6 speed automatics from GM
Two stages of Air Suspension Systems for far superior handling and greater loading capacity and towing
Upgraded and fully rebuilt 2-speed Transfer Cases using either the original equipment NP229 or brand new, modern design GM or Atlas gear boxes
Custom High Performance Ceramic Coated and Stainless Steel Exhaust Systems (up to full 3 inch diameter free-flow systems)
Fully Rebuilt Differentials including OEM Spicer Ring & Pinion
Two stages of Modern Ignition Upgrades
High Performance Steering Components
High end Touch Screen Navigation Systems
Full color, ultra-wide angle Rear View Cameras
Auxiliary Back up Light Systems
Ultra bright, high output, modern looking HID Headlight Conversions
Full IPod Connectivity and functionality
Fully integrated two level, upper and lower Seat Heaters
Bluetooth Telephone Connectivity
In vehicle USB Charging Ports
Wireless Steering Wheel Remotes
All new upgraded Air Conditioning Systems with brand new Compressors, condensers, receiver/driers, expansion valves, sensors, and all new, better than factory Custom Hoses. A/C fully converted and upgraded to R134 refrigerant
Ultra high end Audiophile Sound Systems with custom Amplifiers, Subwoofers, Crossovers and custom sound system insulation
Custom made, leather upholstered Center Consoles/Armrests that hold a 10 disc CD changer, 3 additional cigarette lighter power outlets, a 110v (household current) power inverter, coin organizer, and lots of additional storage space
Keyless Remote Engine Start Systems
Several styles of Aftermarket Wheels
......as well as a huge whole collection of high end Cosmetic Upgrades and Improvements

[pcosmar]

[

That's a full, body off, frame up restoration with new power.

I priced them 10 years ago, and they were asking $150,000 then.

http://grandwagoneer.com/

I'll keep an eye out. Most I've seen in the past were too rusted to be worth it.
I had a 360 in my barn,, but it's gone now.

They are the Caddie of Jeeps.

[Anti Federalist]

I'll keep an eye out. Most I've seen in the past were too rusted to be worth it.
I had a 360 in my barn,, but it's gone now.

They are the Caddie of Jeeps.

Yeah, had a 1990 with a 360.

Mrs. AF fell in love with it, but it was the same problem, rust, gadgets inside stopped working and the "rag joint" on the steering column came apart.