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Thread: Trust Jesus, not Q or Trump or Biden

  1. #1

    Trust Jesus, not Q or Trump or Biden

    @Anti Federalist, I decided to address your concern about God not saving us with fire out his arse (I caught the Braveheart reference) separate from "The Q Thread." I started a long response, but cut it short and decided to put the rest here because this is really a religious discussion and should be distracted by the noise that is that thread. I'm sure you'll disagree with much of what I say and that's cool. This isn't to change your mind, but rather to give you insight into another perspective.

    This is what Jesus said about how to fight evil.

    John 18:36
    Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

    Matthew 5:44
    But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

    And Jesus actually wrote the Book of Revelation. John just copied it down again.

    Revelation 1:1
    The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

    Christianity didn't become the religion of the Roman empire through conquest. It became the religion through conversion. It was really the first "information war." (And I know Alex Jones has tainted that phrase.) Whatever the freedom movement accomplishes will not primarily be through force of arms. Nothing wrong with having weapons for self defense. Jesus told His followers to get a sword, but then he said two swords, among 13 people, was "enough."

    Luke 22:36, 38

    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
    The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That's enough!" he replied.

    But when Peter used the sword and cut off the ear of one of their enemies, Jesus healed the enemy and rebuked Peter.

    Matthew 26:50-53
    50 Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”[d]

    Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

    52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”


    Luke 22:49-53.

    49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

    51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

    52 Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? 53 Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns.


    John 18:10
    Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

    Note that it was directly after that when Peter denied Jesus.

    Luke 22:54-62
    54 Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest. Peter followed at a distance. 55 And when some there had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and had sat down together, Peter sat down with them. 56 A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, “This man was with him.”

    57 But he denied it. “Woman, I don’t know him,” he said.

    58 A little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.”

    “Man, I am not!” Peter replied.

    59 About an hour later another asserted, “Certainly this fellow was with him, for he is a Galilean.”

    60 Peter replied, “Man, I don’t know what you’re talking about!” Just as he was speaking, the rooster crowed. 61 The Lord turned and looked straight at Peter. Then Peter remembered the word the Lord had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times.” 62 And he went outside and wept bitterly.

    He was willing to kill for Jesus, and die in the process if necessary knowing that Jesus had the power to raise the dead. But he wasn't willing to be martyred for Jesus. The Islamic martyrs fought and died. Christian martyrs bared witness to the gospel and died in peace. Peter eventually became a Christian martyr.

    I know this is a tough thing to hear and a tougher act to follow. I don't expect everyone to follow it. I don't think people who don't will be condemned to hell for not following it. You were right in the other thread when you mentioned me and you said I likely have a target on my back. If I am reading the prophecies right, there is a good chance I may be martyred someday. But not for any of this Q nonsense. Q is not Christian and neither is Donald Trump. What was the result of the witness of the Christian martyrs? Why it's still happening today. Did you know that, thanks largely to the brutality of the Islamic State towards Christian martyrs, more Muslims converted to Christianity than at any time in human history? More words from Jesus.

    Matthew 24:14
    And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    But check out the whole context.

    Matthew 24::9-14
    9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    Christian martyrdom is a prerequisite for the gospel getting to everyone. It will separate the wheat from the chaff. You won't have any phony preachers talking about "name it and claim it" when people's heads are being chopped off for acknowledging Jesus. But maybe then people who have been fooled into thinking that Christianity is about enslaving black people and hating gays will see the light. Christianity never supported slavery (I can biblically prove that), and Christianity is about becoming free from the lust of the flesh (I have a long way to go on that). When true Christianity is embraced in its fullness, the petty differences that divide us no longer matter. The problem is that Christianity right now is lukewarm. As Jesus said in Revelation 3:15-16

    Revelation 3:15-16
    New International Version
    15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

    How can a lukewarm Christianity change anything? Only the fire of persecution will heat Christianity up to a temperature acceptable to God and healing to humanity. Only then will we get the "plank out of our own eye" so we can better see how to help our brethren get the speck out of their own. (Matthew 7:3)

    And no. Our existence, the Christian existence, will not be "blotted from history." Christianity DEFINES human history! Even the most blasphemous atheist has to acknowledge that. Human history is divided by the birth of Jesus Christ. Even though atheists now want to use "Before Common Era" and "Common Era" to define history, what made the era "common?" It wasn't the power of the Roman empire or the "enlightened" (and degenerate) pagan Greek culture. It was the uniting force of Christianity. Christianity accomplished what no other religion could because it did what no other religion did, not even Judaism. Christianity embraced all races and cultures of people around the common idea that rather than sacrificing animals (or people) to reconcile yourself to God, God sacrificed Himself so that He could do the reconciling. How do you fight such a gracious idea? You can't. Even when the German barbarian tribes overthrew Rome, they were the ones "conquered" in a sense that they became Christianized.

    Lastly, of this I am certain. Before this decade is over the real persecution will come. And it won't be based on "right vs left." It will be based on right vs wrong. And when that happens all will be revealed.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 02-06-2021 at 07:18 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #2
    The Kingdom of Heaven is within you.

    He who has an ear, let him hear: “If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; if anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed.” Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.
    #nokingbutJesus
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    @Anti Federalist, I decided to address your concern about God not saving us with fire out his arse (I caught the Braveheart reference) separate from "The Q Thread." I started a long response, but cut it short and decided to put the rest here because this is really a religious discussion and should be distracted by the noise that is that thread. I'm sure you'll disagree with much of what I say and that's cool. This isn't to change your mind, but rather to give you insight into another perspective.
    Damn it Drake...I saw your post early this morning and had planned for today to be nothing more than plowing snow with my backhoe like Mr. Fudderman in Gremlins.

    But now you've goaded me into deep thought.

    Deep thought that I reckon the family has been struggling with for centuries now...see, one half of my people are Quakers from way back, all the way to William Penn.

    Even Uncle Smedley, who had a nick name of "the Fighting Quaker" by the way.

    How did they reconcile this...this contradiction in scripture? Did it tear apart their families like it is doing to mine?

    I think my understanding of your position is clear, let's cut to the heart of the matter here:

    Nothing wrong with having weapons for self defense.
    How can this be?

    If it is justifiable in scripture to take the life of a man that is attempting to rob you of possessions, how can it possibly be wrong to take a life defending your liberty or defending your life itself?

    Romans 13 maybe? Well, that makes sense, because what is the difference between a violent street gang or an oppressive government enforcement gang? Both are earthly authority, authorized by God, according to Paul and thus man has no right to resist it.

    Whatever the freedom movement accomplishes will not primarily be through force of arms.
    I am past the point of trying to achieve freedom for the masses.

    Clearly the masses do not want that.

    I'm trying to stir people up into resistance against forces that are coming to obliterate us.

    To wipe us off the face of the earth, both as a people and as an idea...you and I and everybody here are on that list.

    I'm trying to save the concept of freedom so that maybe, generations from now, it might be enjoyed again.

    In all the years of reporting on police violence, what was one of my primary complaints? That white people would not, could not, be $#@!ed and damned if they would ever rise up and stir $#@! in the streets like black people do when cops kill one of their own.

    This past year proves that idea works. Street violence works. "Give us what we want or we will hurt you and $#@! your $#@! up", works!

    The Marxist left's wins are staggering when you sit back and take account of it.

    Complete control of the nation's largest state economy, complete control of the fedgov, control of major cities all across the country including the largest: NYC - Chicago - LA and Houston. They got the NYPD to back down. Billions of dollars of donations flow into BLM coffers.

    Their ideas are ascendant, their minions are everywhere, and one of their primary ideas and goals is the "final solution" for people like us.

    They have made it clear this is the case, that they will not tolerate another "pure" revolution being sullied and soiled by counter revolutionary filth like us.

    This is why I am losing my faith, one reason why my marriage is a bitter roommate agreement:

    I will not accept that.

    I will not accept a religious philosophy that says, in the face of evil that grandiose, that blatant, that far over the edge, that I am not permitted to defend and fight back against it.

    You can save a man for Christ today John, by proving me wrong, by showing me what I am misunderstanding, and that yes, you can with full vigor and faith in God, fight with arms and violence against such an evil.

    I remain convinced of my own understanding and of Pastor Peter Muhlenberg's understanding (of which I was unaware, until doing a little reading for this post) of Ecclesiastes 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  5. #4
    So glad to not be a Christian and have to deal with the moral dilemma. Don't get me wrong. I think Jesus was a straight up good dude. Said many good things that should be taken to heart.
    But, when it comes to obliteration, I'll just go the old ways. One can live in harmony with Nature and Nature's God and still kill that which is trying to kill you.

  6. #5
    But, let me leave Christians with this message. Look to a man I admire. Desmond Doss. You may not believe in killing a fellow, but that doesn't mean that you are not TASKED.
    Spend as much on medical supplies as those that spend on weapons and ammo. Train as much at healing as others do at defending.
    Being a believer does not give a Christian a license to 'sit it out' and wait on the Lord to correct evil.
    If you are going to be a Christian. Be a Desmond Doss.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    How did they reconcile this...this contradiction in scripture? Did it tear apart their families like it is doing to mine?
    Those who live by the sword shall also perish by the sword. Are you a mercenary? Even a soldier? Do you sail with a navy?

    My rule of thumb is, if I can't reconcile what Peter said with what Jesus said and did, Peter can go pound sand. Jesus threw the money changers out. Jesus considered a sword or two essential. Jesus said give unto Caesar what is of Caesar, but also give unto God what is of God.

    Jesus never said we had to let the State kill us. He let the state do just that, yes. He also specifically said that was to fulfill prophesy. Where is the prophesy that says you will be killed, and good things will come of it?

    Jesus said love your enemies. This can often prevent violence. He said turn the other cheek. This can often prevent escalation. jmdrake is right that this attitude helped get people's attention and spread Christianity.
    But where is it written we had no right to survive, if anyone at all decides they want us dead? If you're able to turn the other cheek, obviously you're not inviting someone to kill you. Whatever happened to the first cheek didn't kill you.

    If people close to you choose to place Paul above Jesus, that's a shame. There's not much you can do about it except be a better example.

    As for what's in store for us, none of us know. Jesus and the disciples had a sword or two, but didn't live by them. God's Law is not about specifics, but about intent. Preserving liberty is a fine intent, and IMO, God would approve. I guess the trick is loving your enemies. It's hard to kill those you love, no matter how much evil they're doing. But the Bible's full of evildoers getting their asses smitten. If it's hard, that's good. That prevents one from doing it unless absolutely, positively necessary.

    Yes, standing up and being ready to die for liberty is good. The strongest reaction I've gotten lately is by saying, I'm mad that you kids aren't growing up in a U.S. as free as the one I grew up in. We're graybeards. That is the subtext whenever we stand up to be counted. Let whomever think you're wrong who wants to. But keep being right.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-06-2021 at 02:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    @Anti Federalist, I decided to address your concern about God not saving us with fire out his arse (I caught the Braveheart reference) separate from "The Q Thread." I started a long response, but cut it short and decided to put the rest here because this is really a religious discussion and should be distracted by the noise that is that thread. I'm sure you'll disagree with much of what I say and that's cool. This isn't to change your mind, but rather to give you insight into another perspective.

    This is what Jesus said about how to fight evil.

    John 18:36
    Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
    Yes, the Kingdom in the church Age has absolutely nothing to do with violence, force or threats of any kind. That is because the fundamental logical argument (if it can be called that) that Satan is making is that violence always wins. It is as though Satan has said: "Violence is power so, when Jesus claimed, 'All power in heaven and earth has been given to me,' he was full of crap because Jesus is 'merely' building his church with truth and reason (through the Spirit), instead of violence."[1]

    This is why our weapons are not earthly weapons. Rather, we are fighting against the fruitless deeds of darkness (Eph. 5:11) with the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22,23), armed not with shields and swords (or even rifles) but with the armor of God. In this way, Jesus is proving through us that the devil was defeated at the Cross, and that Satan's "worldview" -- that chaos defeats order, war defeats peace, anger defeats harmony, hatred defeats love, despair defeats joy, and so on and so forth -- is false and defunct.

    The key is to realize that, while Jesus is the one doing this great work (with his almighty power), he is literally and tangibly performing it through us. So, spiritual warfare is not (as we might sometimes be tempted to feel) "imaginary warfare"... it is as literal, real and present as any tanks, rifles and bombs. We are not merely a living temple (stationary), we are a living body (in motion)... the physical hands, feet and mouths of the Lord insomuch as we are in his will. This is how we can speak with the authority of God-- even the spirits must submit, not to us (personally), but to the authority of God within us, that is, to the name of Jesus.

    Christianity didn't become the religion of the Roman empire through conquest. It became the religion through conversion. It was really the first "information war." (And I know Alex Jones has tainted that phrase.) Whatever the freedom movement accomplishes will not primarily be through force of arms. Nothing wrong with having weapons for self defense. Jesus told His followers to get a sword, but then he said two swords, among 13 people, was "enough."
    But I think you prove more than you mean to. I have argued on another forum that we should think of the Gospel as the original "psy-op" (or information warfare), so we see eye-to-eye on that. Really, these are all just sub-headings of spiritual warfare (and even physical warfare is, even though we do not physically fight back against it). I propose the following idea for consideration: Q is a "type" or "shadow" (reflecting to the past, in this case, not the future) of the Gospel. There are many parallels that can be drawn. And the point/purpose of this type/shadow is not to supplant, replace or even augment/assist the Gospel. Rather, it is a purely logistical operation whose purpose is to "amplify" the Gospel in a new way that is only now possible with the emergence of the Internet, computers and social media:

    Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.” (Matthew 9:37,38)
    And this is far from the first time this has happened in history. Each new technological development in Western history has been attended by distinct changes in the way that God is working in history. Consider the change in the breadth and depth of biblical scholarship after the invention of the printing press. Prior to the printing press, there were only hand-written manuscripts. These were extremely costly and easily destroyed or lost. After the printing printing press, the manuscripts were widely translated, converted to print form and studied widely. It can even be argued that there is some causal link between the advent of the printing press and the Protestant Reformation because the cost of owning a complete copy of the very Scriptures went from being extremely precious and prohibitive for all but the Roman Church, a few secular institutions and very wealthy private individuals, to something that could be found in virtually every local church and even the households of ordinary private citizens. To use an engineering metaphor, the widespread availability of the Scriptures started to act like an "error-detection code" on the often capricious claims and teachings of the Roman church. But instead of repenting of their errors, they dug their heels in and clung to tradition just like the religious rulers that Jesus rebuked 2,000 years ago in person.

    So, in my opinion, the idea that the advent of the Internet and social media changes nothing (in how God is working in the world) is ludicrious. It requires us to believe that "this time is different" from every other time. We need to keep our eyes on heaven but not get our heads stuck in the clouds-- real changes in the material world happen for a (spiritual) reason. God isn't up in heaven strumming a harp while the world is changing beneath his feet. He is the active agent bringing about these changes, and he is doing so for a reason. The purpose is to bring about the end of the Age and usher in the Kingdom in its fullness (whatever that will look like... we simply don't know).

    But when Peter used the sword and cut off the ear of one of their enemies, Jesus healed the enemy and rebuked Peter.
    Hmm, this sounds familiar: "No true supporter of mine could ever endorse political violence, no true supporter of mine could ever disrespect law enforcement or our great American flag. No true supporter of mine could ever threaten or harass their fellow Americans. If you do any of these things, you are not supporting our movement. You are attacking it and you are attacking our country. We cannot tolerate it." (Donald Trump, after the Jan. 6 event at the Capitol)

    Q is not Christian and neither is Donald Trump.
    You do not know either of those claims with certainty. They are merely claims.

    thanks largely to the brutality of the Islamic State towards Christian martyrs, more Muslims converted to Christianity than at any time in human history? More words from Jesus.
    And I suppose it is God's will for the blood of the martyrs to flow forever, never to be avenged? God has said he is eager to avenge his enemies and he will surely do so-- the only reason he asks some believers to endure martyrdom is to entrap his enemies and bring the full measure of justice upon them. The age of martyrdom is coming to a close soon. Each day is one day closer.

    "He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." (Revlation 12:12)

    Christian martyrdom is a prerequisite for the gospel getting to everyone. It will separate the wheat from the chaff.
    That is not correct. It is the angels who will separate the wheat from the chaff (as they are commanded by the Lord). (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43)

    You won't have any phony preachers talking about "name it and claim it" when people's heads are being chopped off for acknowledging Jesus.
    I would urge caution in wishing for more martyrdom upon the church. Violence and bloodshed serve no good purpose whatsoever. While God has permitted it for his own purposes, the Antichrist is perfectly thrilled with the idea of eternal martyrdom. Chop off their heads forever!

    In addition, the end will not come until there is a falling away (the great apostasy) -- the false prophet is going lead many "Christians" off to hell, while preaching "name it and claim it" and every other heresy that was ever heard from a pulpit. Because this is an apostasy, we know that it will happen within the church. The great apostasy will be performed in the name of Jesus himself (this is why many false messiahs will arise).

    But maybe then people who have been fooled into thinking that Christianity is about enslaving black people and hating gays will see the light.
    (a) The empty vessel makes the loudest sound. I assert that we have been lied to about the prevalance of these attitudes among believers. I come from a conservative, "backward redneck" background and I have a pretty good idea of what the moral problems in these communities are. Whenever you find yourself agreeing with the MSMBS about the real moral problems in our country, that should be an automatic red-flag.

    ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE

    (b) The age of persecution and martyrdom was always temporary and is drawing to a close. Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 that there is coming a great tribulation unlike anything the world has seen. But the purpose of that tribulation is not to teach redneck (professing) Christians that black people are created in the image of God (that's a matter of course), rather, the purpose of that tribulation is to separate the sheep from the goats (the wheat from the chaff) once and for all. When it comes, the great tribulation will not be a "lesson" that is taught to anybody, it will simply be the final condemnation of the damned, and the final deliverance of the righteous.

    (c) The Antichrist would be thrilled to rule over a martyrdom Olympics fought between Christians and Muslims. While Paul expressed a personal view that he would welcome martyrdom, there is nothing normative in Scripture that we should seek or desire martyrdom. If it comes, it comes and, along with it, God will give the grace to endure it. But martyrdom is truly, truly extraordinary. "God is love." We worship a loving, perfect Heavenly Father, not a bloodthirsty Ba'al.

    How can a lukewarm Christianity change anything? Only the fire of persecution will heat Christianity up to a temperature acceptable to God and healing to humanity.
    I think you are assuming that the return is very far off. It could be tomorrow for all you know. The church has already endured 20 centuries of persecution and martyrdom. Maybe there are 20 centuries more but I doubt it. And it's not our place to tell God how he will purify his bride. The Kingdom reaches culmination at some point. The purification is completed at some point. At that point, the tide will turn. The church will no longer be beaten and ravaged by Satan's hordes. Instead, the church will be glorified and the victory of the Lamb will become visible for all to see-- for those who are in Christ, to his praise and glory, and for those who are outside of Christ to their unendurable agony.

    Only then will we get the "plank out of our own eye" so we can better see how to help our brethren get the speck out of their own. (Matthew 7:3)
    I think you have a serious misconception -- persecution itself is not about purification. Persecution is about the testimony of Jesus and the damnation of the wicked who receive the mark of the Beast and follow him into perdition. The church is a type of Israel, but it is not Israel itself. They are different and God relates to them differently.

    For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (I Peter 4:17,18)
    This was written almost 2,000 years ago. Was God twiddling his thumbs these past 2,000 years? The purification of the church is not through persecution and martyrdom, rather, it is through the living work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification:

    This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    After that time,” declares the Lord.
    “I will put my law in their minds
    And write it on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    And they will be my people.
    No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    Or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    Because they will all know me,
    From the least of them to the greatest,”

    Declares the Lord.
    (Jeremiah 31:33,34)
    As we are transformed into the image of Jesus, we become empowered by the Spirit and we know God directly, without intermediaries. This is not something that can be known by the carnal mind, only the living Spirit himself can teach this. But this spiritual process of sanctification has absolutely nothing to do with the carnal act of persecution and martyrdom. Violence, in any context, has no claim upon the conscience. That is the foundation-stone of the Kingdom that Jesus is building. Violence is useless, it teaches nothing, and has no redeeming value except that which God has miraculously extracted from it in raising the name of Jesus above all names through the testimony of the martyrs and the countless persecutions of believers. Satan is already defeated!

    [1] - This sentence was edited because it was misunderstood by one RPF member, so perhaps I did not write it as clearly as it could have been written
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 02-06-2021 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Clarity
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    That is not correct.
    That is a statement loaded with hubris. God does it. Angels are doing His bidding when they do it. If you believe in free will, we do it when we choose to be wheat or chaff. When the statement is taken in a literal sense, farmers do it. Do you even know what jmdrake is saying? Is he talking about the Judgment Day, or is he borrowing Jesus' simile to illustrate something else?

    I don't see anything in this wall of text that convinces me your eye is so clear that you need to be sticking tweezers in jmdrake's eye.

    Did you really say Jesus is full of crap?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Violence is power so, when Jesus claimed, "All power in heaven and earth has been given to me," he was full of crap...
    Really?

    No, we cannot speak with the authority of God. We are too limited and imperfect to put words in the mouth of an omniscient being. Hubris. You can't even accurately put words in jmdrake's mouth, much less God's:

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    And I suppose it is God's will for the blood of the martyrs to flow forever, never to be avenged?
    The man said nothing of the sort. He knows as well as you do the age of the Kingdom will come. Hubris.

    Q led millions who should have been working at sending people of God to Washington to sit on their asses waiting for thousands of indictments to be unsealed. The internet is used to divide and foment hate. Even Bibles get misquoted. God uses our tools. The devil uses our tools. Arguably, when the devil uses our tools, God is using them--all of them, even violence--because in ways that we are presumptuous if we claim to understand them, God is using the devil.

    Read your Trump quote again. He's not promoting God. He's talking about cops and flags. He's promoting the State. You don't know if either Q or Trump is Christian, either, but I agree with jmdrake that if either is trying to serve God he's doing a piss poor job of it.

    What does "soon" really mean? What do you prove by quoting words written twenty centuries ago saying an immortal being knows his time is "short"? Any finite amount of time is bound to look short to an immortal. We know not the hour. God told us we don't.

    Likewise, you don't know the purpose of martyrdom, nor of the tribulations. That's more hubris. I certainly don't buy your explanation. To secure deliverance and condemnation? No. Jesus told us with His own lips how that will be done. He will gather us all, separate us into two groups, tell us what we did or didn't do, and throw one group in the Lake of Fire. Done. If...

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    We worship a loving, perfect Heavenly Father, not a bloodthirsty Ba'al.
    ...then there is some other reason for the tribulations we endure. I don't know why, but I'm inclined to guess that we can't make Heaven heavenly unless we understand through personal experience why evil is bad. In any case, Matthew 25 taught me tribulations aren't necessary to condemn and deliver. You say persecution isn't about purification, say God isn't bloodthirsty, and rattle off a lot of hocus pocus about huge amounts of suffering somehow doing what one simple meeting can do--and Jesus says will do. Jesus' words and jmdrake's reasoning trump your dogma. Why don't you let it be?

    As for chiding jmdrake for having views that coincide slightly with the MSM, that body always base their lies on truths to make them more believable. When he says people believe(d) Christianity is about hatred and enslavement, I know he's right. And when he says they got fooled, I agree. Unlike you, I didn't see him put any quantities on that, nor claim you know any of them personally. So why such defensiveness?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Satan is already defeated!
    Hm. Don't see it. I see him running wild. I'm sure God sees it that way. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine had some interesting episodes dealing with creatures who do not view time as linear trying to understand the existence of creatures who do. That's fun stuff to toy with. Like a chess grand master, God sees how the devil must go down in defeat. But God made time linear to me, and at this point in the timeline, Satan is wreaking havoc.

    I don't know what the purpose of your wall of text was, or if you intended any connection to the topic of this thread. But if you were trying to instill in me faith in either Q or Trump, you failed.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-06-2021 at 09:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    But, let me leave Christians with this message. Look to a man I admire. Desmond Doss. You may not believe in killing a fellow, but that doesn't mean that you are not TASKED.
    Spend as much on medical supplies as those that spend on weapons and ammo. Train as much at healing as others do at defending.
    Being a believer does not give a Christian a license to 'sit it out' and wait on the Lord to correct evil.
    If you are going to be a Christian. Be a Desmond Doss.
    Jesus also said:

    ◄ Luke 22:36 ►

    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
    I turn 50 in May. I am a Christian. I am also a former Marine. As a husband and father my greatest job is to be the defender of those I love, and I will defend them! God will save my kids' souls, but it is up to me to save their lives.
    Last edited by RJB; 02-06-2021 at 10:11 PM.
    ...

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    That is a statement loaded with hubris. God does it. Angels are doing His bidding when they do it. If you believe in free will, we do it when we choose to be wheat or chaff. When the statement is taken in a literal sense, farmers do it. Do you even know what jmdrake is saying? Is he talking about the Judgment Day, or is he borrowing Jesus' simile to illustrate something else?
    I fully understand what jmdrake is claiming. He is claiming that the purpose of martyrdom is (was) to separate "real" believeres from fake ones (wheat/chaff). This is utter garbage and the more carefully I read his post, the more error I see in it. God's purpose in permitting martyrdom is to point to his Son's death on the cross-- Jesus's death proves Satan in the wrong and sentences him inescapably to eternal hellfire. So martyrdom is a "picture in the small" pointing our eyes to Jesus's death. It is one way (of many) that the Father is exalting the name of Jesus above every name (Phil. 2:9-11)

    I don't see anything in this wall of text that convinces me your eye is so clear that you need to be sticking tweezers in jmdrake's eye.
    Well, I'm not judging anyone at all, so there are no eyes involved. But error is error and there is never a mistake in pointing out error. Most of the time, it is accidental or the result of ignorance or a mistake of reasoning.

    Did you really say Jesus is full of crap?
    I absolutely did not. Since my wording caused you to think I said that, I edited the post to ensure that no one can misunderstand what I meant to say. Here is the original and edited side-by-side for clarity:

    Original: Violence is power so, when Jesus claimed, "All power in heaven and earth has been given to me," he was full of crap because Jesus is 'merely' building his church with truth and reason (through the Spirit), instead of violence.

    Edited: It is as though Satan has said: "Violence is power so, when Jesus claimed, 'All power in heaven and earth has been given to me,' he was full of crap because Jesus is 'merely' building his church with truth and reason (through the Spirit), instead of violence."
    I hope that puts the matter to rest.

    No, we cannot speak with the authority of God.
    This is the "always growing, never grown" theory of sanctification. While it is very widespread among believers, it is error. At some point, it's time to put the milk-bottle down and move on to solid food. We absolutely can and must speak with the full authority of God Almighty. It's why we're here.

    We are too limited and imperfect to put words in the mouth of an omniscient being. Hubris. You can't even accurately put words in jmdrake's mouth, much less God's:
    You have it backwards-- it is not we who put words in God's mouth but God who puts words in our mouth.

    Q led millions who should have been working at sending people of God to Washington to sit on their asses waiting for thousands of indictments to be unsealed.
    So are we to believe that, but for Q, millions of Americans (let alone believers) would have gone to Washington? Q only started in 2017. Where were the migrating hordes of Americans swarming Washington before 2017?

    The internet is used to divide and foment hate.
    The air we breathe is used to divide and foment hate.

    Even Bibles get misquoted. God uses our tools. The devil uses our tools. Arguably, when the devil uses our tools, God is using them--all of them, even violence--because in ways that we are presumptuous if we claim to understand them, God is using the devil.
    God is not using violence to build the Kingdom in any way, shape or form, whether directly or indirectly. And while the devil causes himself to be used (Deut. 6:10,11), it is never and can never be in any essential or indispensable role. If it were, then the devil could justly take credit (glory) for the Kingdom, and God will not allow that, Is. 48:11. The devil's works are all wood, hay and stubble and will perish in the flames.

    Read your Trump quote again. He's not promoting God. He's talking about cops and flags. He's promoting the State.
    Perhaps. The point (in context) is that he's condemning violence, without qualification, as it ought to be condemned. It's a start. If what he said were actually obeyed and followed through by all Americans, very quickly, there would be little if any use for cops and the problem of police violence and the police-state would solve itself and wither away. So he's not promoting the violence of the State, which is what makes the State evil.

    What does "soon" really mean?
    I read it this way: "Sooner than you think." So, whenever you think he'll be back (whatever your hunch is), it will be sooner than that.

    What do you prove by quoting words written twenty centuries ago saying an immortal being knows his time is "short"?
    You and I are immortal in the same sense that the devil is. We are immortal souls.

    Any finite amount of time is bound to look short to an immortal. We know not the hour. God told us we don't.
    We also know not the "not hour" meaning, no one can predict that Jesus isn't returning tomorrow. So it cuts both ways. And both Jesus and all the NT writers that mentioned the subject were absolutely clear: he's returning soon, as in, any day now, therefore keep watch. So if the sword cuts in one direction, it cuts towards sooner, rather than later.

    Likewise, you don't know the purpose of martyrdom, nor of the tribulations. That's more hubris. I certainly don't buy your explanation. To secure deliverance and condemnation? No. Jesus told us with His own lips how that will be done. He will gather us all, separate us into two groups, tell us what we did or didn't do, and throw one group in the Lake of Fire. Done.
    Jesus gave us parables to explain the spiritual import and significance of the end of the Age. But he certainly did not give a "play-by-play" as many in the Dispensational movement believe. Why would he give away his moves? We know specific markers (signs) and when we see those signs (some of which I have already seen), then we know it is the end.

    As for chiding jmdrake for having views that coincide slightly with the MSM, that body always base their lies on truths to make them more believable.
    I get it. I wasn't chiding him, I was simply pointing out a red-flag. Six or seven years ago, I was where he is standing right now. So, there is zero condescension or chiding in what I am saying. I don't do interpersonal dynamics over a text-only medium where tone-of-voice cannot properly regulate meaning.

    When he says people believe(d) Christianity is about hatred and enslavement, I know he's right. And when he says they got fooled, I agree. Unlike you, I didn't see him put any quantities on that, nor claim you know any of them personally. So why such defensiveness?
    I have a long-form post on this subject, I'll try to dig it up if I get time. The devil (and his children in the MSMBS and elsewhere) wants to talk about every "evil" in the world except the ones that actually matter. Yes, there are racists, sexists and so on. And if they are in Christ, they will be corrected-- there is absolutely no room for such divisions within the body of Christ. But it's certainly not a primary problem within the church. If you want to look at primary problems in the church, start with self-righteousness, hypocrisy and gossip. When was the last time you heard a full-length sermon or sermon series focusing on these sins? There are many others that can be added to the list (they've been there since the NT itself was written nearly 2,000 years ago) but these three should be enough to get anybody started along the general lines of the real besetting sins of the church.

    Hm. Don't see it. I see him running wild. I'm sure God sees it that way.
    I see him running the most successful and insidious psy-op ever. The metaphor I like to use is Prince John impostoring on the throne while King Richard was locked up in prison. Jesus is at the right hand of the Father (not prison), but he's not present on the Earth in bodily form as he once was. So the devil sat down on the empty throne in Jesus's "absence" and is pretending to be God. Read 2 Thessalonians 2 to see how that's going to work out for him, long-run. The devil may be a lot of things, but long-run thinker isn't one of them.

    Star Trek: Deep Space Nine had some interesting episodes dealing with creatures who do not view time as linear trying to understand the existence of creatures who do. That's fun stuff to toy with. But God made time linear to me, and at this point in the timeline, Satan is wreaking havoc.
    We know that the angelic beings have such powers and many others besides.
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 02-06-2021 at 09:27 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    I fully understand what jmdrake is claiming. He is claiming that the purpose of martyrdom is (was) to separate "real" believeres from fake ones (wheat/chaff).
    That's quite the declarative statement. I read his post, too. What it said to me is, people see other people being willing to die for these beliefs, and they look into them to find out why. If you don't mind, I'll wait for the man to tell us what he meant, rather than abandon my interpretation in favor of yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    This is utter garbage and the more carefully I read his post, the more error I see in it. God's purpose in permitting martyrdom is to point to his Son's death on the cross-- Jesus's death proves Satan in the wrong and sentences him inescapably to eternal hellfire. So martyrdom is a "picture in the small" pointing our eyes to Jesus's death. It is one way (of many) that the Father is exalting the name of Jesus above every name (Phil. 2:9-11)
    I don't see that and my interpretation of what jmdrake said as being mutually exclusive. I'm not a hundred percent sure they aren't different ways of describing the same effect. If they aren't, I certainly don't see why God couldn't do both at once. I certainly have no intention of calling either what he said or what you said "utter garbage". That mindset closes the mind to growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Well, I'm not judging anyone at all...
    Then " utter garbage" is a phrase you might want to reconsider when discussing statements rooted deep in a man's faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    ...so there are no eyes involved. But error is error and there is never a mistake in pointing out error. Most of the time, it is accidental or the result of ignorance or a mistake of reasoning.
    Of course eyes are involved. People use imperfect language to communicate, and we read and understand, or we read and misunderstand. Failing to use the exact language of the dogma you were raised on is not my idea of an error. If anything, that would be a mistake of reasoning on the part of the listener.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    I absolutely did not. Since my wording caused you to think I said that, I edited the post to ensure that no one can misunderstand what I meant to say. Here is the original and edited side-by-side for clarity:
    Thank you for acknowledging that I could reasonably misunderstand you. This is why I don't accept that imperfect humans using imperfect language can speak with the authority of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    So are we to believe that, but for Q, millions of Americans (let alone believers) would have gone to Washington? Q only started in 2017. Where were the migrating hordes of Americans swarming Washington before 2017?
    In 2008, Ron Paul libertarians worked very hard to send better people to Washington. We ran into an entrenched establishment, and we were not numerous enough to change that. We did not have to go to Washington to do that. An ounce more prevention could have done what the pounds of intended cure on 1/6/2021 failed to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    God is not using violence to build the Kingdom in any way, shape or form, whether directly or indirectly. And while the devil causes himself to be used (Deut. 6:10,11), it is never and can never be in any essential or indispensable role. If it were, then the devil could justly take credit (glory) for the Kingdom, and God will not allow that, Is. 48:11. The devil's works are all wood, hay and stubble and will perish in the flames.
    Look, I'm not trying to harm your dogma, so there's no need to be defensive. God allows evil. He suffers it to exist. If He is no bloodthirsty Ba'al, then it serves a purpose. I may be all wet when I theorize what that purpose is. Your dogma makes no sense to me. We all try to approach God as best we can. If you want the freedom to do that your way, you must grant me the same liberty. That's how liberty works. As Will Rogers said, you can only get as much of the stuff as you give.

    I would hope, for God's sake and as we love others as Christians should, that we would make an effort to understand each other before saying, that's not the language of my dogma so you must be dead wrong. We do try not to be Pharisees, caught up in ritual and trying to set ourselves above each other, right? Surely we're not preaching at each other just to appear pious, or because we're enamored of the sounds of our own voices. Surely we want to understand and consider another's viewpoint before we accept or reject it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Perhaps. The point (in context) is that he's condemning violence, without qualification, as it ought to be condemned. It's a start. If what he said were actually obeyed and followed through by all Americans, very quickly, there would be little if any use for cops and the problem of police violence and the police-state would solve itself and wither away. So he's not promoting the violence of the State, which is what makes the State evil.
    Trump was covering his ass. He was trying to close the barn door after the bulls had run the streets. Sorry. I still have no faith in Trump.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Jesus gave us parables to explain the spiritual import and significance of the end of the Age. But he certainly did not give a "play-by-play" as many in the Dispensational movement believe. Why would he give away his moves? We know specific markers (signs) and when we see those signs (some of which I have already seen), then we know it is the end.
    We were told we would not know the hour so we would treat each other as we should as soon as we grew up enough that we could. Trying to second-guess God's timeline is clearly not serving God's purpose, or we wouldn't have been told that.

    But that wasn't my point. My point was, Judgment Day is when the condemnations will come, and deliverance will be graciously disposed. And Jesus told us point blank what would happen then.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    I get it. I wasn't chiding him, I was simply pointing out a red-flag. Six or seven years ago, I was where he is standing right now. So, there is zero condescension or chiding in what I am saying.
    I'm glad to hear it. I guess my condescension meter needs adjusting. I'll attend to that.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-06-2021 at 10:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Then " utter garbage" is a phrase you might want to reconsider when discussing statements rooted deep in a man's faith.
    Fair enough. I could have used a more neutral phrase -- I do feel strongly about this particular subject because I've seen the "dark side" of this idea that God is in his ivory tower in heaven sending Christians off to the lions to "test" whether their faith is real or fake. There is some element of testing in this life, and for some of us, that could even include martyrdom. So I think we all agree on that. But as I said, I've seen where this can be taken, doctrine-wise, and it's definitely not good.

    Anyway, we'll wait to get clarification from OP.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  15. #13
    God created roses with thorns. If a rose, a mere plant, is equipped with weapons able to defend itself, why would anyone think that God would frown upon humans fighting back against someone or some thing trying to physically harm them? Is it because we didn't come out of the womb with thorns, or knives or guns? Didn't the Creator give us a brain, in order to create the things that we need to survive in this world?

    He gave us a heart which we use to muster up empathy, sympathy and compassion for our fellow man. But not everyone uses their heart, not everyone has compassion for their fellow man, not everyone is following God, allowing God to lead in their lives. So, for that reason we create our own thorns. We create things to protect ourselves against those who would do us harm.

    We're human beings, we are not animals. We shouldn't HAVE to create weapons to use against our fellow man, we should be above animalistic behaviors. Love should rule our hearts. If we follow God and allow God to lead us, we will not be the ones to harm another. But if another comes to harm me, I will use the thorns that I have to stop myself from being harmed. Those who think God would not condone that, need to think a bit deeper about their Creator.

    We weren't born with thorns, because we were given a brain to THINK, to REASON, to REALIZE, to be AWARE of the FACT that we were CREATED. By a CREATOR. To look around at creation, to look around at each other and marvel and wonder....and to LOVE creation, love each other and LOVE God. But this is a fallen world, and we have to seek and find our way. We have to seek and find God, find our Creator. It's a bumpy journey, and we don't all follow the same path. We turn away from God, turn our face away. Which turns us AWAY from love. Our hearts grow cold without our Creator. Our hearts grow cold. We shouldn't NEED thorns. But this isn't a perfect world.

    It is foolishness to proclaim that the one who allows himself and others to be trampled on and harmed is somehow morally superior to the one who would take up arms and fight when his life or the innocent life of another is in mortal danger.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    But, let me leave Christians with this message. Look to a man I admire. Desmond Doss. You may not believe in killing a fellow, but that doesn't mean that you are not TASKED.
    Spend as much on medical supplies as those that spend on weapons and ammo. Train as much at healing as others do at defending.
    Being a believer does not give a Christian a license to 'sit it out' and wait on the Lord to correct evil.
    If you are going to be a Christian. Be a Desmond Doss.

    Desmond Doss
    , for those who may not know.

    I owe ya a rep...
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PursuePeace View Post
    We shouldn't NEED thorns. But this isn't a perfect world.

    It is foolishness to proclaim that the one who allows himself and others to be trampled on and harmed is somehow morally superior to the one who would take up arms and fight when his life or the innocent life of another is in mortal danger.
    In respect to ordinary self-defense, there is no teaching in Scripture that prohibits the believer from swatting away a thief, physically escaping harm from a criminal or even, in the worst-case, using force to defend oneself or innocents from a vicious attack. And when the situation arises in which such dire measures are required, we will do what needs to be done, from instinct. For a genuine situation, there is no element of "second-guessing"-- being the victim of a crime is like being attacked by a vicious dog, it's impossible to really say what is the "right" or "wrong" way to react in such a situation and, in any case, our fight-or-flight instincts will mostly take over.

    But I think it is best to tune our overall orientation away from physical force. This is not to say we should not own weapons or train with them (those who are inclined in this way are free to do so), but we should view them as artifacts of a fallen world that is soon slated to disappear. We should view them with the same kind of curiosity and interest that we view ancient swords and battle-axes -- relics of a bygone era. They are constructed by valuable skills and there is an art to using them (and there is enduring value in maintaining these skills and arts). But the weapons themselves and their purpose in respect to this fallen world (for violent men to create and maintain their wicked empires) are already doomed: "The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." (Isaiah 2:3,4) They will only be useful as museum pieces and in historical re-enactments.

    There is a reason why this is the case. At the end of the Age, the glory of God will be revealed. "And the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5) We think we know what the words "violence", "force", "weapons" and "power" mean but the human conception of these words is completely disconnected from real violence, real force, real weapons and real power-- when every eye sees the glory of the Lord, then it will be understood that human violence, human weapons and human power were never anything but a pathetic joke. "Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?" (Isaiah 2:22)

    This is why believers are called to spiritual warfare. We are not to waste our time on the useless strategies of humans because those are a distraction and a mere sideshow. Instead of fighting evil with evil (futile), we are to overcome evil with good. And this is why we must cultivate the fruits of the Spirit within. The real battlefield is inside of us, it is our very own heart and mind. In the modern world, this should be very easy for anyone to understand -- look at how advertisers are using AI machine-learning algorithms to target people's moods and behaviors. The types of ads they serve change not only based on your identity, but also your browsing history and even factors like the time of day. And these are dual-use systems, you can be certain they are already being weaponized for the purposes of psychological warfare. But as creepy as all of that might seem, these are all still merely earthly tools and weapons. Heavenly weapons are something else altogether and we who are believers are being prepared for heavenly war. "Then war broke out in heaven." (Revelation 12:7) When that war comes, you might as well melt your AR down and turn it into a pair of pruning-shears, it will be much more useful for you that way.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  18. #16



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    In respect to ordinary self-defense, there is no teaching in Scripture that prohibits the believer from swatting away a thief, physically escaping harm from a criminal or even, in the worst-case, using force to defend oneself or innocents from a vicious attack. And when the situation arises in which such dire measures are required, we will do what needs to be done, from instinct. For a genuine situation, there is no element of "second-guessing"-- being the victim of a crime is like being attacked by a vicious dog, it's impossible to really say what is the "right" or "wrong" way to react in such a situation and, in any case, our fight-or-flight instincts will mostly take over.

    But I think it is best to tune our overall orientation away from physical force. This is not to say we should not own weapons or train with them (those who are inclined in this way are free to do so), but we should view them as artifacts of a fallen world that is soon slated to disappear. We should view them with the same kind of curiosity and interest that we view ancient swords and battle-axes -- relics of a bygone era. They are constructed by valuable skills and there is an art to using them (and there is enduring value in maintaining these skills and arts). But the weapons themselves and their purpose in respect to this fallen world (for violent men to create and maintain their wicked empires) are already doomed: "The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." (Isaiah 2:3,4) They will only be useful as museum pieces and in historical re-enactments.

    There is a reason why this is the case. At the end of the Age, the glory of God will be revealed. "And the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” (Isaiah 40:5) We think we know what the words "violence", "force", "weapons" and "power" mean but the human conception of these words is completely disconnected from real violence, real force, real weapons and real power-- when every eye sees the glory of the Lord, then it will be understood that human violence, human weapons and human power were never anything but a pathetic joke. "Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?" (Isaiah 2:22)

    This is why believers are called to spiritual warfare. We are not to waste our time on the useless strategies of humans because those are a distraction and a mere sideshow. Instead of fighting evil with evil (futile), we are to overcome evil with good. And this is why we must cultivate the fruits of the Spirit within. The real battlefield is inside of us, it is our very own heart and mind. In the modern world, this should be very easy for anyone to understand -- look at how advertisers are using AI machine-learning algorithms to target people's moods and behaviors. The types of ads they serve change not only based on your identity, but also your browsing history and even factors like the time of day. And these are dual-use systems, you can be certain they are already being weaponized for the purposes of psychological warfare. But as creepy as all of that might seem, these are all still merely earthly tools and weapons. Heavenly weapons are something else altogether and we who are believers are being prepared for heavenly war. "Then war broke out in heaven." (Revelation 12:7) When that war comes, you might as well melt your AR down and turn it into a pair of pruning-shears, it will be much more useful for you that way.


    I see your views as stated above as being much aligned with my own. I think the only thing that we may be in a a bit of disagreement over is "viewing weapons as relics of a by-gone era". It's just a matter of perspective. To me, viewing weapons as a relics of a by-gone era is a future event, not a current reality. In my spirit, I can live in that reality. That reality does not exist, though, in the physical plane.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PursuePeace View Post
    I see your views as stated above as being much aligned with my own. I think the only thing that we may be in a a bit of disagreement over is "viewing weapons as relics of a by-gone era". It's just a matter of perspective. To me, viewing weapons as a relics of a by-gone era is a future event, not a current reality. In my spirit, I can live in that reality. That reality does not exist, though, in the physical plane.
    I understand and I agree that there is a difference between looking (waiting) for his appearing, and his actual appearing. My point is generic -- tanks and bombs are really tiddly-winks and, when God pours out his Spirit on the earth, this will be understood by all. In the meantime, we are simply preparing, nomads who are passing through this world on our way to something far greater...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    I understand and I agree that there is a difference between looking (waiting) for his appearing, and his actual appearing. My point is generic -- tanks and bombs are really tiddly-winks and, when God pours out his Spirit on the earth, this will be understood by all. In the meantime, we are simply preparing, nomads who are passing through this world on our way to something far greater...
    Beautifully said.

  23. #20
    I'll just say God didn't create thorns. Thorns/thistles were part of the curse and fall of man. Gen 3.

    BTW which early church father said "pick the roses leave the thorns" regarding philosophy?
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    I'll just say God didn't create thorns. Thorns/thistles were part of the curse and fall of man. Gen 3.

    BTW which early church father said "pick the roses leave the thorns" regarding philosophy?
    See, I think that he did create thorns, but that they were also part of the curse and fall of man.
    If God didn't create the thorns, (post-fall) then who did? Who else can really "create"? (not saying that in a snarky way, at all.) I mean, you might have a point here, I'd like to understand it better. Maybe there is something that I'm not currently seeing. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PursuePeace View Post
    See, I think that he did create thorns, but that they were also part of the curse and fall of man.
    If God didn't create the thorns, (post-fall) then who did? Who else can really "create"? (not saying that in a snarky way, at all.) I mean, you might have a point here, I'd like to understand it better. Maybe there is something that I'm not currently seeing. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding.
    Ah I see. Yeah I agree.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    In respect to ordinary self-defense, there is no teaching in Scripture that prohibits the believer from swatting away a thief, physically escaping harm from a criminal or even, in the worst-case, using force to defend oneself or innocents from a vicious attack. And when the situation arises in which such dire measures are required, we will do what needs to be done, from instinct. For a genuine situation, there is no element of "second-guessing"-- being the victim of a crime is like being attacked by a vicious dog, it's impossible to really say what is the "right" or "wrong" way to react in such a situation and, in any case, our fight-or-flight instincts will mostly take over.
    That's not what it says.

    Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

    Show me where Jesus said you can exempt street criminals and gangsters from that.

    This is why believers are called to spiritual warfare. We are not to waste our time on the useless strategies of humans because those are a distraction and a mere sideshow.
    What if you're wrong?

    People have been predicting the end of the age for two millennium now.

    They have all turned out to be wrong.

    That's a hell of a wager you're asking me to make.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's not what it says.

    Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

    Show me where Jesus said you can exempt street criminals and gangsters from that.
    Go back one verse, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy." (v. 43) He then refutes this false belief as you quoted. In context, he's teaching that we are not to be like the world (vindictive, holding grudges). I wrote on another forum about the famous Gadsden flag -- while I agree with the principle of liberty that it is associated with, the symbolic message of the flag is "Don't mess with me or I'll make sure you regret it" and that is precisely what Jesus is refuting here. And it's not limited merely to violent retribution-- all forms of vindictive and hateful behavior are evil and no believer should participate in them. Every form of "being nasty" is a deed of the flesh, not fruit of the Spirit. So we are called to cease from all such behaviors and attitudes.

    If you attack me on the street, I will fend your attack off. If necessary, I might even use force against you. The only exception to this is if you are actually attacking me for the sake of persecution, that is, attacking me for the name of Jesus. If that is what is happening, then I cannot resist your evil attacks but, instead, I must cry out to God for grace to endure the persecution. This is because persecution is not really a physical attack, it is a physical manifestation of Satanic evil and the spiritual war that Satan is waging against God by attacking and persecuting God's people.

    What if you're wrong?
    It's the one prediction that literally can't be wrong -- this world is ending, soon.

    People have been predicting the end of the age for two millennium now.
    And all of them have passed away within less than 120 years from birth -- in human time, no one has waited more than 120 years for the second coming. So, the passage of historical time is an irrelevant distraction.

    They have all turned out to be wrong.

    That's a hell of a wager you're asking me to make.
    Not really. Your world is ending one way or the other.

    people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, (Hebrews 9:27)
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post
    Your world is ending one way or the other.
    Hmm.

    So, no matter what I do, it's pointless to resist.

    My world lives on in the lives my children and their children and what I have taught them and left for them.

    My enemies have committed to blotting their inheritance, their birthright, out of existence, and you suggest I do nothing since, according to the suicide cult, I'm a dead man walking already.

    Ya'll have fun with that OK?

    I'm converting to Odinism.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Hmm.

    So, no matter what I do, it's pointless to resist.
    It is paganism that teaches that death is omnipotent, that is, there is no resurrection. That is the true futility.

    My world lives on in the lives my children and their children and what I have taught them and left for them.
    Not disputing that, just pointing out that, if there is a judgment after death, then you'll end up there whether you go to the judgment or the judgment comes to you.

    My enemies have committed to blotting their inheritance, their birthright, out of existence, and you suggest I do nothing since, according to the suicide cult, I'm a dead man walking already.
    I suggest the opposite of doing nothing. Pursuing a strategy that is doomed to fail is choosing to effectively do nothing. The war in government (aka politics) is a giant, live action Broadway show whose primary purpose is to keep you distracted from who is really pulling the strings. You can call it a "secret cabal" if you like, but that's still one step removed from the actual puppet-master-- the cabal has just one master. The Gospel is the real war, everything else is just a sideshow.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Damn it Drake...I saw your post early this morning and had planned for today to be nothing more than plowing snow with my backhoe like Mr. Fudderman in Gremlins.

    But now you've goaded me into deep thought.

    Deep thought that I reckon the family has been struggling with for centuries now...see, one half of my people are Quakers from way back, all the way to William Penn.

    Even Uncle Smedley, who had a nick name of "the Fighting Quaker" by the way.

    How did they reconcile this...this contradiction in scripture? Did it tear apart their families like it is doing to mine?

    I think my understanding of your position is clear, let's cut to the heart of the matter here:



    How can this be?

    If it is justifiable in scripture to take the life of a man that is attempting to rob you of possessions, how can it possibly be wrong to take a life defending your liberty or defending your life itself?

    Romans 13 maybe? Well, that makes sense, because what is the difference between a violent street gang or an oppressive government enforcement gang? Both are earthly authority, authorized by God, according to Paul and thus man has no right to resist it.



    I am past the point of trying to achieve freedom for the masses.

    Clearly the masses do not want that.

    I'm trying to stir people up into resistance against forces that are coming to obliterate us.

    To wipe us off the face of the earth, both as a people and as an idea...you and I and everybody here are on that list.

    I'm trying to save the concept of freedom so that maybe, generations from now, it might be enjoyed again.

    In all the years of reporting on police violence, what was one of my primary complaints? That white people would not, could not, be $#@!ed and damned if they would ever rise up and stir $#@! in the streets like black people do when cops kill one of their own.

    This past year proves that idea works. Street violence works. "Give us what we want or we will hurt you and $#@! your $#@! up", works!

    The Marxist left's wins are staggering when you sit back and take account of it.

    Complete control of the nation's largest state economy, complete control of the fedgov, control of major cities all across the country including the largest: NYC - Chicago - LA and Houston. They got the NYPD to back down. Billions of dollars of donations flow into BLM coffers.

    Their ideas are ascendant, their minions are everywhere, and one of their primary ideas and goals is the "final solution" for people like us.

    They have made it clear this is the case, that they will not tolerate another "pure" revolution being sullied and soiled by counter revolutionary filth like us.

    This is why I am losing my faith, one reason why my marriage is a bitter roommate agreement:

    I will not accept that.

    I will not accept a religious philosophy that says, in the face of evil that grandiose, that blatant, that far over the edge, that I am not permitted to defend and fight back against it.

    You can save a man for Christ today John, by proving me wrong, by showing me what I am misunderstanding, and that yes, you can with full vigor and faith in God, fight with arms and violence against such an evil.

    I remain convinced of my own understanding and of Pastor Peter Muhlenberg's understanding (of which I was unaware, until doing a little reading for this post) of Ecclesiastes 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
    Hello. Sorry for the late reply. Thank you for bringing this to my attention with your mention. I'm not going to go point by point. Rather I'm going to address some themes:

    Theme 1: Self-defense.

    What I said: Christianity didn't become the religion of the Roman empire through conquest. It became the religion through conversion. It was really the first "information war." (And I know Alex Jones has tainted that phrase.) Whatever the freedom movement accomplishes will not primarily be through force of arms. Nothing wrong with having weapons for self defense. Jesus told His followers to get a sword, but then he said two swords, among 13 people, was "enough."

    What you said: How can this be?

    If it is justifiable in scripture to take the life of a man that is attempting to rob you of possessions, how can it possibly be wrong to take a life defending your liberty or defending your life itself?

    Romans 13 maybe? Well, that makes sense, because what is the difference between a violent street gang or an oppressive government enforcement gang? Both are earthly authority, authorized by God, according to Paul and thus man has no right to resist it.[/i]

    What I think you're missing:

    I never said that self defense didn't extend to defense of liberty. Quite the contrary. As you know in another thread I mentioned that I supported the Bundy Ranch stand off. I suppose one could call that "property", but it was federal land that he was grazing on. More importantly the people who stood with Bundy weren't defending their property. So I would call that a defense of liberty. But I'll go a step further. If they had been standing up against mass gun confiscation I would also consider that self defense. (I guess that's also defense of property but then many things can be cast as property rights.) But there is a difference between self defense and a pre-emptive strike. I consider what happened on January 6th to be a pre-emptive strike. It grew out of fear of what Biden/Harris might do. Yes there was the specter of a possibly stolen election, but this isn't the first time there was a possibly stolen election.


    Theme 2: What can and cannot be accomplished through the force of arms
    What you further said: I am past the point of trying to achieve freedom for the masses.

    Clearly the masses do not want that.

    I'm trying to stir people up into resistance against forces that are coming to obliterate us.

    To wipe us off the face of the earth, both as a people and as an idea...you and I and everybody here are on that list.

    I'm trying to save the concept of freedom so that maybe, generations from now, it might be enjoyed again.

    In all the years of reporting on police violence, what was one of my primary complaints? That white people would not, could not, be $#@!ed and damned if they would ever rise up and stir $#@! in the streets like black people do when cops kill one of their own.

    This past year proves that idea works. Street violence works. "Give us what we want or we will hurt you and $#@! your $#@! up", works!



    What I think you're missing:

    If you think that what BLM accomplished last summer was ONLY or even PRIMARELY through force, then you've missed the information warfare campaign that has been going on since 2014. I applaud your efforts to point out police brutality that happens to whites. As you know, I've posted those stories as well. But those who lead the "conservative movement" have decided to squash such stories, or only bring them up to say "Whites get killed too so blacks should just suck it up." Seriously, I heard a WHITE MOTHER call in to a radio station in 2014 and say that her son got killed by police and it was his own fault so everybody else should just suck it up.

    The goodwill and sympathy BLM has is left over from the mostly non violent 1960s Civil Rights struggle. Once you get people saying "We know you're right...but...." well at that point the threat of force carries more weight.

    Now, compare BLM to January 6th. Jan 6th wasn't about white people getting killed by cops. It wasn't even about businesses being shut down like the Michigan protests were. Yes, Donald Trump make a good focal point for anger, but that was also the problem. People want to talk about the "stolen election?" Okay. But even Tucker freaking Carlson isn't convinced that the evidence of that has been laid out. The information war is in bad disarray when not even the most ardent supporters on your side can in good faith sign off on it. SOMETHING was screwy. I agree. But that has to be fleshed out.

    You want to be successful? Come up with a just cause that can grow the broadest base of support and work that. That's what Ron Paul started. Donald Trump came along and focused on the fears of a slice of the liberty movement. And those fears are being exploited and amplified. I am not trying to "save your soul", but if I could simply convince you that the 70+ million who voted AGAINST Trump don't all want you dead, despite your often protestations to the contrary, that would be a step in the right direction. What do you know about Fred Hampton? He was the Black Panther chairman of Chicago that was gunned down by the FBI. Why? Because he reached out to the Latinos and the poor whites. The poor whites were part of a group called "The Young Patriots." They would be the "Tea Party" of today. Look at what happened with Gamestop. (Again, activism without the force of arms.) You've got the MSM trying to tie what was a clear attack against Wall Street elitist's to January 6th. That's a good thing if the word about small shareholder activism really gets out. The same folks the left is constantly complaining about have enemies on the right as well.

    Lastly, as I said, not everyone can handle what ultimately must happen from a Christian point of view. I don't think that in and of itself makes you a bad person. But you should IMO feel the same towards people who have looked at the power of Christianity through history to undermine the rule of tyrants and think "Maybe those guys aren't my enemy nor are they necessarily naïve."
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    So glad to not be a Christian and have to deal with the moral dilemma. Don't get me wrong. I think Jesus was a straight up good dude. Said many good things that should be taken to heart.
    But, when it comes to obliteration, I'll just go the old ways. One can live in harmony with Nature and Nature's God and still kill that which is trying to kill you.
    Note that I quoted where Jesus (IMO) affirmed the right of self defense where he told his disciples to get swords. When they said they had two among the 13 He said that was enough. It was enough for self defense though not enough for an insurrection. I don't know why that wasn't clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    But, let me leave Christians with this message. Look to a man I admire. Desmond Doss. You may not believe in killing a fellow, but that doesn't mean that you are not TASKED.
    Spend as much on medical supplies as those that spend on weapons and ammo. Train as much at healing as others do at defending.
    Being a believer does not give a Christian a license to 'sit it out' and wait on the Lord to correct evil.
    If you are going to be a Christian. Be a Desmond Doss.
    Desmond Doss was a fellow Seventh Day Adventist. I've known about him since I was a boy. I even met him once at a Pathfinder Camporee. Really nice and humble man.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Hmm.

    So, no matter what I do, it's pointless to resist.

    My world lives on in the lives my children and their children and what I have taught them and left for them.

    My enemies have committed to blotting their inheritance, their birthright, out of existence, and you suggest I do nothing since, according to the suicide cult, I'm a dead man walking already.

    Ya'll have fun with that OK?

    I'm converting to Odinism.
    SMH. Christianity defeated odinism through conversion. That's my point. And yes, eventually, Jesus will come again and the world will be remade perfect. Isn't that a good thing to look forward to? Maybe it will happen in our lifetime. Maybe it won't. As for "having fun", I guess slapping some buffalo horns on your head and running around the capital with no apparent objective might seem "fun" for a while.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's not what it says.

    Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you

    Show me where Jesus said you can exempt street criminals and gangsters from that.
    You are correct. And the end result of all of that love was the very civilization that you are wanting to defend now by force of arms. That said, if the sword that Jesus told you to get gives your enemies pause long enough for you to give them the gospel, why that's a win / win. Again, Bundy standoff, all win. January 6th? Stupid loss IMO.

    What if you're wrong?

    People have been predicting the end of the age for two millennium now.

    They have all turned out to be wrong.

    That's a hell of a wager you're asking me to make.
    Two millennia ago began the beginning of the end of the pagan age by the use of the very methods you seem to have a problem with today.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

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