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Thread: Freedom vs Democracy

  1. #1
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    Freedom vs Democracy

    I have never never ever never ever never ever never believed mass democracy was compatible with human freedom and that the celebration and promotion of such is wrong. Am I wrong?
    Last edited by Lamp; 02-11-2017 at 10:08 PM.



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  3. #2
    Democracy is great for decisions that don't matter much. Where to eat, what movie to watch, etc.... for all other things pure democracy is crap. However, for democracy any man would give his only begotten son. ding dang, ding dong

  4. #3
    There is a tendency to confuse democracy with the true objective. Democracy is not a goal. Democracy is merely a tool that can sometimes help in moving toward the goal. Freedom is the goal. Democracy has been a useful tool to thwart monarchic/dictatorial or aristocratic oppression, and thus help to move toward greater freedom from such monarchic/dictatorial systems.

    While democracy can be a useful tool for moving from certain systems toward that goal of greater freedom, Democracy has its own risks of oppression as well. Tyranny by the majority is no less terrible than any other kind of tyranny. Democracy is mob rule. It is tyranny by the majority. It is brute force and violence by the majority against the minority. Bake the damn cake. Pay the damn tax. Carry the damn ID card. Ingest the wrong damn plant and go to jail. Indoctrinate your damn children with our public indoctrination system rules. And on and on. Democracy by definition suppresses the minority. While democracy inherently recognizes that no one person is fit to rule others, it fails to recognize that those same unfit to rule individuals when gathered into a collective mob do not gain any greater fitness or moral claim to rule the lives of others, or steal from their labor any more than than the monarch or aristocracy. Democracy is not a godsend. It is not without major faults. It is not free from abuse. It is not even the best system.

    In a democracy each political party devotes its effort to trying to prove the other parties are not fit govern. In that aspiration they all are correct.

    As paraphrased from Benjamin Franklin, Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Or perhaps H.L. Mencken explained it even better, "Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  5. #4
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  6. #5
    Yes, democracy is the worst. I have thought so since I heard of it. If we instead had different monarchies we would have a better shot at a libertarian territory in America.

    Read Hoppe

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    Yes, democracy is the worst. I have thought so since I heard of it. If we instead had different monarchies we would have a better shot at a libertarian territory in America.

    Read Hoppe
    What kind of monarchy? You mean like carving out a patchwork of princely states?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by HitoKichi View Post
    What kind of monarchy? You mean like carving out a patchwork of princely states?
    yes, a prince for each state could work. look at Liechtenstein. if only Texas had the ability to be something like that

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    yes, a prince for each state could work. look at Liechtenstein. if only Texas had the ability to be something like that
    Well you don't have an income tax so thats a plus I guess.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by HitoKichi View Post
    Well you don't have an income tax so thats a plus I guess.
    from what I can figure the best 3 states for libertarians are Alaska, Texas, and New Hampshire, likely in that order. I have always lived in Texas so I think I am good with what I have unless things change a lot. there is lots of ranch land down here. the down side is the cops. there are a lot of cops in San Antonio at least. hopefully I can find an area with not so many.

  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    from what I can figure the best 3 states for libertarians are Alaska, Texas, and New Hampshire, likely in that order. I have always lived in Texas so I think I am good with what I have unless things change a lot. there is lots of ranch land down here. the down side is the cops. there are a lot of cops in San Antonio at least. hopefully I can find an area with not so many.
    What about Vermont?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by HitoKichi View Post
    What about Vermont?
    taxes are very bad from what I've heard.

    gun laws are great and drug laws are above average

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by HitoKichi View Post
    I have never never ever never ever never ever never believed mass democracy was compatible with human freedom and that the celebration and promotion of such is wrong. Am I wrong?
    Mass democracy isn't compatible with freedom; not even close. In fact it's possible to argue it's the exact opposite.
    Thankfully the USA isn't a democracy - you know that, right?

  15. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    Thankfully the USA isn't a democracy - you know that, right?
    Yes




  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by HitoKichi View Post
    Yes
    Good. Too many Americans don't know this.

  17. #15
    Pure democracy is bad for minorities. The majority will always vote to oppress the minority in a pure democracy. Anyone else notice that the MSM never mentions the words protecting our Constitutional Republic or Bill of Rights? Always they say the word democracy, democracy, democracy. This is likely not a mistake and intentional.
    USE THIS SITE TO LINK ARTICLES FROM OLIGARCH MEDIA:http://archive.is/ STARVE THE BEAST.
    More Government = Less Freedom
    Communism never disappeared it only changed its name to Social Democrat
    Emotion and Logic mix like oil and water

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    Democracy has been a useful tool to thwart monarchic/dictatorial or aristocratic oppression, and thus help to move toward greater freedom from such monarchic/dictatorial systems.
    No, not really.

    The state has grown exponentially since the advent of modern democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    Read Hoppe
    And Moldbug

    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    Mass democracy isn't compatible with freedom; not even close. In fact it's possible to argue it's the exact opposite.

    Thankfully the USA isn't a democracy - you know that, right?
    Sure it is.

    All real power is ultimately held by politicians elected by the masses.

    That certain words written on certain pieces of paper ostensibly prohibit said politicians from doing certain things...

    ...does not in fact prevent them from doing those things.

    quis custodiet ipsos custodes



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    Sure it is.

    All real power is ultimately held by politicians elected by the masses.

    That certain words written on certain pieces of paper ostensibly prohibit said politicians from doing certain things...

    ...does not in fact prevent them from doing those things.

    quis custodiet ipsos custodes
    politicians having power isn't a democracy.
    51% of the people voting to kick the other 49% out of the country, is a democracy

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by HitoKichi View Post
    What about Vermont?
    Vermont is a socialist state. The Vermont that gave us Coolidge is long gone.
    Stop believing stupid things

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    politicians having power isn't a democracy.
    51% of the people voting to kick the other 49% out of the country, is a democracy
    And that's what exists in the United States.

    The majority ultimately controls government (i.e. 51% could do whatever they please with the remainder).

    Whatever constitutional provisions ostensibly restrain the majority are themselves interpreted by judges elected by the majority.

    Note that I'm not endorsing democracy (quite the opposite), just describing the reality of the situation.
    Last edited by MallsRGood; 02-15-2017 at 09:48 PM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    And that's what exists in the United States.

    The majority ultimately controls government (i.e. 51% could do whatever they please with the remainder).

    Whatever constitutional provisions ostensibly restrain the majority are themselves interpreted by judges elected by the majority.

    Note that I'm not endorsing democracy (quite the opposite), just describing the reality of the situation.
    You're distorting it and I understand your point of showing how people don't follow the constitutional republic structure, but that doesn't default us to a democracy.
    The fact that there are representatives alone rather than a national vote on each issue is one non-democracy example

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    The fact that there are representatives alone rather than a national vote on each issue is one non-democracy example
    Which democracy uses national vote on everything?

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Which democracy uses national vote on everything?
    The kind which is a democracy. If this isn't happening it's not a democracy. That's the point.

  26. #23
    I am starting not to care about politics and who wins. Conservatives vs liberals = Fascists vs. Fascists. Although conservatives are a little better than liberals, they are still the same thing.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    You're distorting it and I understand your point of showing how people don't follow the constitutional republic structure, but that doesn't default us to a democracy.

    The fact that there are representatives alone rather than a national vote on each issue is one non-democracy example
    That's an oddly narrow definition of democracy, but I don't want to argue semantics.

    My point is simply that any system in which the rulers are popularly elected (call it what you will) is going to have extremely illiberal tendencies, esp. in the economic arena. This is true for the US, Britain, France, Germany, Japan, etc, etc. The US Constitution is unique in terms of what it attempts to do (i.e. to greatly impede the growth of the state), but in practice our system is not unique (since the US Constitution does not in fact impede the growth of the state). And this failure is not a feature of the US Constitution in particular (as if the problem could have been prevented by better drafting), but of constitutions in general; the very idea that written constitutions can restrain the people empowered to interpret them is absurd. At best, constitutions can provide a bit of inertia. IIRC, Kissinger said something to the effect of "the illegal we can do immediately, the unconstitutional takes a little longer." That's about right.
    Last edited by MallsRGood; 02-17-2017 at 04:29 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    Mass democracy isn't compatible with freedom; not even close. In fact it's possible to argue it's the exact opposite.
    Thankfully the USA isn't a democracy - you know that, right?
    It's representative democracy, tho-not much better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    That's an oddly narrow definition of democracy, but I don't want to argue semantics.

    My point is simply that any system in which the rulers are popularly elected (call it what you will) is going to have extremely illiberal tendencies, esp. in the economic arena. This is true for the US, Britain, France, Germany, Japan, etc, etc. The US Constitution is unique in terms of what it attempts to do (i.e. to greatly impede the growth of the state), but in practice our system is not unique (since the US Constitution does not in fact impede the growth of the state). And this failure is not a feature of the US Constitution in particular (as if the problem could have been prevented by better drafting), but of constitutions in general; the very idea that written constitutions can restrain the people empowered to interpret them is absurd. At best, constitutions can provide a bit of inertia. IIRC, Kissinger said something to the effect of "the illegal we can do immediately, the unconstitutional takes a little longer." That's about right.
    we agree that the election of some people is a democratic election. But that is a component of a republic. Your points all are included in the definition of our constitutional republic.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    It's representative democracy, tho-not much better.
    Not arguing good or bad. Pointing out that we have a constitutional republic and not a democracy. It's a point many don't understand and since they aren't synonymous, I believe it's good to know the difference. There's a reason the people in power continually say democracy and conveniently forget we are a republic. Coincidence? I think not.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    No, not really.

    The state has grown exponentially since the advent of modern democracy.
    Yes.......and No.

    The total state was realized in the absolute kings of Europe. Men like Louis XIV ruled with their every absolute whim being law and the will of the majority or individual meaning nothing. The absolute state was total.

    In America, the only thing that has kept pulling us back from such an absolute state or from falling into the purest depths of fascism has been the public reflex and defense of voting privileges. In that way democracy has been beneficial.

    The issue in the present era is technology. More than every before the state has the power to do as it will. And the only real check on it has been the reflex of voting. The Deep State can't rule openly nor completely defy the public face of power because people think their votes matter and would revolt if they lost that illusion. But modern media tools have made the manipulation of the masses more possible than ever before.

    So I would argue that it isn't democracy that has caused the state to grow exponentially. It is modern technology that has done so. That the growth of technology correlates with the growth of democracy may lead one to think it is democracy that has been the issue is, I think, a flawed association. And I think that is Hoppe's error. It doesn't matter what kind of government you have, monarchist or democratic, the growth of modern technological manipulation tools is what allows the state to grow to such total proportions.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The total state was realized in the absolute kings of Europe. Men like Louis XIV ruled with their every absolute whim being law and the will of the majority or individual meaning nothing. The absolute state was total.
    When I say that the state has grown since the advent of democracy, I'm referring to the state's behavior vis a vis its subjects (e.g. how much it taxes, regulates, etc). This is distinct from the form of the state (e.g. monarchy, democracy, etc). The form of the state is in itself unimportant from a libertarian POV. It only matters insofar as it affects how the state behaves toward the population. And the indisputable empirical fact is that democratic states behave far worse toward their subjects than did non-democratic states.

    The issue in the present era is technology. More than every before the state has the power to do as it will. And the only real check on it has been the reflex of voting. The Deep State can't rule openly nor completely defy the public face of power because people think their votes matter and would revolt if they lost that illusion. But modern media tools have made the manipulation of the masses more possible than ever before.

    So I would argue that it isn't democracy that has caused the state to grow exponentially. It is modern technology that has done so. That the growth of technology correlates with the growth of democracy may lead one to think it is democracy that has been the issue is, I think, a flawed association. And I think that is Hoppe's error. It doesn't matter what kind of government you have, monarchist or democratic, the growth of modern technological manipulation tools is what allows the state to grow to such total proportions.
    I would argue that most of the more harmful things moderns states do pre-modern states could have done, had they so desired. But, even supposing that Louis XVI would have been technologically unable to imitate the modern American welfare-regulatory state (and I do agree that, on the margin, there are some things which would have been impossible at that time), what's more important is that he would have had no incentive to do so in the first place. Sure, it's possible that Louis would just happen to be a foaming at the mouth ideological socialist, but he has no external pressure driving him toward socialism, unlike the elected politician, who is constantly pushed by his constituents for every greater subsidies, competition-suppressing regulations, etc, etc.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJeff View Post
    Thankfully the USA isn't a democracy - you know that, right?
    ^ This

    We vote for people who vote for people, who in turn vote for people, who then in turn vote for people, who then vote on which things to vote on, and then they vote on those things.

    It's WAY better and WAY more voting than just a Democracy.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

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