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Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
That's why you rock Ender! I'm not saying that all spirituality is nonsense or anything near it. It's the seeking of guidance from external sources that is folly. At the end of the day, when the Son...errr...Sun...Sets (who saw what I did there?) most religious people are guided by external sources, to their own demise and for the benefit of flawed people.
So, if I were Jesus and I'm separating the wheat from the tares on this thread, well, it's not hard to figure out who goes where.
Last edited by devil21; 06-18-2019 at 12:08 AM.
"Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul
"We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book
I don't dislike libertarians. I dislike their methods. The very premise of the thread is to give bad advice on what libertarians should do to become even more politically impotent than they already are. What exactly is that going to solve?
If you put two libertarians in a room together, I swear to God they will fight to the death to determine who is more libertarian. That's just an observation after visiting these forums for the past 11 years. We've reached a point where you can't even take delight in small victories because someone comes along to berate you for not demanding an all-or-nothing deal, with much finger-wagging.
I'm gonna drop this post, again, because some folks still don't get it:
We are running out of time
The highlight:
"We don't have another 47 years to waste sparring each other as the Libertarian Party has done. We may not even have another 12 years to waste, as we here on this site have done, before it's too late. It may already be too late; many of us here argued the same a decade ago. What I think many people fail to understand is that it's not just going to be too late for the US government to turn around. It's going to be too late for American culture to survive, and if American culture dies, so does every link the average person has had or will ever have, to libertarianism or even liberty in general. If you think the gulf between you and the average American is too wide to bridge today, you have no idea how bad it could get." -- MiniMe
Last edited by nobody's_hero; 06-18-2019 at 05:50 AM.
T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato
We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me
Originally Posted by Philhelm
Any book can be incorrectly translated. But with the texts in the original languages still there for anyone to study, I don't see why that's a big deal. It certainly doesn't put the Bible into any special category of being inaccessible or corrupted relative to any other books.
Most of the rest of what you say looks like baseless conspiracy theory. The Nicene Creed had nothing to do with the making of the Bible. I'm not sure what you mean about writings being thrown out or discarded, but we still have all the scriptures that Jesus and the apostles read as scripture in what is today known as the Old Testament, and the ones they passed on to the Church for her permanent use in what is today known as the New Testament, in forms that are in all important respects no different than the forms they took in the first century. If some people choose to discard any or all of those books from their own use, that reflects on them, but not the scriptures.
The Hebrew word used in Exodus 22:17 (verse 18 in English versions) is mecashephah, meaning "one who practices sorcery," from the verb cashaph, which means to practice sorcery. Three centuries before Christ, and 19 centuries before King James, it had already been translated into Greek with the word pharmakos, which also meant one who practices sorcery. It was also translated as "witch" in the English translations that preceded the KJV.
Last edited by Superfluous Man; 06-18-2019 at 06:40 AM.
Wow. A thread about libertarians vs the GOP turning into a religious war. Talk about thread creep!
Anyway, this is the "sword" that Jesus brought.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
And yes, the Word of God can tear families apart. Consider the case of a Muslim who converts to Christianity and gets disowned (or worse) by his family. That is the "sword" of the word tearing a family apart.
Ummmm....no. The second coming of Jesus if it is true, and I believe it is, isn't "based on a book." The book is simply revealing what will eventually happen. As long as the only thing Christians do to advance the second coming of Jesus is tell other people "Hey, He's coming back. Be ready!" that is 100% libertarian. It's only when Christians try to establish God's kingdom by force that there's a problem. That is why Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36" Why do you think Christians in the Middle East have been able to live for centuries under the rule of some of the worst despots imaginable? Because they don't go around trying to establish God's kingdom by force. They mind their business, go to church each week, and are in general good citizens. Persecution of Christians ramped up recently due to U.S. interventionism destabilizing the region.Global rule by unelected people based on a book hand-picked by a group of Catholics at the behest of a Pope and then revised by an English King is libertarian?
We know. But the Son Of Man came to seek and save the lost.Man, I really love some of y'all but I really get lost at the religion part of all this.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Citizen of Arizona
@cleaner4d4
I am a libertarian. I am advocating everyone enjoy maximum freedom on both personal and economic issues as long as they do not bring violence unto others.
I guarantee you that Mormons are diverse, and that in general, are patriotic, which some would call nationalist.
But you are correct in assuming that there are many whose opinion on nations and immigration is based upon their religious beliefs. “Catholic” Charities for instance, yet I don’t know a single Catholic that goes along with “no borders” or socialism. There is a lot of discontent with the current Pope.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
Hello. I didn't see that post by @MiniMe the first time or when @antifederlist reposted it as a separate thread. I will direct my response to AF's thread. Cliff notes version, MiniMe attempts to defend something (the wall) that he readily admits won't actually fix the problem that he feels needs to be fixed (uncontrolled immigration) and that's being advanced using methods he feels are unconstitutional (abusing executive power by declaring a national emergency).
Really, this whole discussion reminds me of talking to Obama voters. "Yes the Affordable Care Act caused some problems and didn't really fix anything and was possibly unconstitutional....but don't you care about sick people?" If you say yes, they say "Well...what's your alternative?" You give them alternatives they shout you down and boycott you (ask the CEO of Whole Foods) and pretend you never offered any alternatives, or worse accuse your alternatives of exacerbating the problem when the opposite is true.
I put forward a proposal, half in jest, that the more I think about it is really the least worst alternative. That is helping Mexico build a wall on its southern border. There's no need to declare a "national emergency" to do that. We already send Mexico money to fight a phony drug war. We send foreign aid to all of those countries. Redirect that foreign aid to Mexico building a wall to keep Central American migrants from getting into Mexico in the first place. There is no constitutional problem with that suggestion! None. Zip. Zilch. Nada. It wouldn't cost us one red cent. (Again, re-purpose drug war foreign aid money, and since Trump has tried drug smuggling to immigration, the money has already been allocated.) No U.S. ranchers have to lose additional land. There is no need for installing "face scanning cameras" at airports and along the border wall to accomplish this. It doesn't enhance the 100 mile "constitution free zone" that already exists. And Mexico's southern border is much shorter than the U.S. southern border which means the whole shebang would be much much cheaper to construct.
It seems Trump almost took me up on my suggestion when he announced, then backed away from, tariffs on Mexico to get them to do more on immigration. He was addressing the same problem my proposal address but in a different manner. He ended up without any concrete results from what I can tell. So we're back to "muh wall."
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Which denominations are predominantly immigration activists? Catholic Charities gets all of the publicity. Bend the Arc Jewish Action has gotten some media. Jehovah’s Witnesses tend that direction. There is Lutheran Immigration and Refugee Services. Episcopalians. For @devil21, smaller, more independent types may fit in this category. Maybe FLDS.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
I've taken the time to read what the FLDS want and yes it is a theocratic world government, governed by a group called the Council of Fifty, advising the new Jesus. Smith and Young both wanted this. I wrote in the other thread that in reality, it's just a vision of a new version of the Roman Senate advising the Roman Emperor. All roads still lead to Rome. Perhaps I've spent a lot more time than most reading up on the history and esoteric/occult side of organized religion, therefore my perspective is much different than anyone who simply reads a holy book and leaves it at that.
"Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul
"We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book
I feel the same way. I've only ever voted for Republicans and I did the precinct delegate thing for a few years. It's a big waste of time for a tiny amount of power. It was a good thought to gain power and change the direction of the party from within, but ultimately a waste of time unless you plan on making a career out of it.
There's three solid people in Washington: Rand, Thomas and Justin. That's it. I'll keep supporting them, but no one else. There's a few "fellow travelers" who are decent people, but probably not more than 5 people.
I focus more on local issues now. It's a lot easier to defeat a local tax hike than it is to change the culture of the whole country.
Forget the immigration part. He absolutely nailed it when it came to identifying how libertarians reason and how sometimes they're their own worst enemy. Open borders is just ONE of the issues where strict adherence to 'absolutes' is likely to end in disaster.
Bottom line: You need a strategy. Taking all the libertarians off to go hide in a corner and educate each other on how virtuous your philosophy is, has gotten NO results. You've gotta stop preaching to the choir.
Does this movement even have a strategy? I'm loathe to even call it a "movement" anymore since it's been stagnant since 2012. (really I think it peaked in 2008). But we have a lot of people willing to provide each other with circular affirmation of their beliefs, and inexhaustible stockpiles of energy to chastise anyone who deviates to grab those fleeting chances to claim a victory once in a while.
T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato
We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me
Originally Posted by Philhelm
From what I see the main problem is the purism. They insist on jumping straight from 99% corrupt to 99% pure or nothing. In a real world this will never happen. Reality is it has to be gained one incremental step at a time until the percentage eventually swings to the better. There is a very tall sand hill to climb with this end goal, one sinking step at a time before the summit will be reached...
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
I beg to differ. Most debates on this forum these days are either directly about immigration or indirectly tied to immigration. Take the debates over the bumpfire stock ban. Nobody here things that's a good idea. But some are willing to tolerate it based on the idea that Trump needed to do it for political reasons or, even if he's just bad on the second amendment, because he's so "good" on immigration, we need to protect him. It's like the left on healthcare. Point out Obama's shortcomings? "Oh but he got us the Affordable Care Act which is the best thing since sliced cheese and don't point out the problems with it because republicans haven't come up with anything better."
But hey, if you've got another example of what you're talking about with regards to this forum, please share it.
I consider this thread a reaction to the cheer-leading of the possible purge of Justin Amash. Many of us have been irritating with Rand from time to time but there wasn't the "He may lose his primary *snicker snicker*" reaction that I've seen with regards to Justin. Justin's cardinal sin? Saying obstruction of justice may be an impeachable offense. I disagree with his analysis, but I also disagree with the idea that just because the investigation came about from NSA spying that means that there can be no impeachable offense ipso facto. If illegal NSA spying turned up actual admitted child porn would that be an impeachable offense? Again, I disagree with Justin's final analysis. But I don't see it as equal to NSA spying.Bottom line: You need a strategy. Taking all the libertarians off to go hide in a corner and educate each other on how virtuous your philosophy is, has gotten NO results. You've gotta stop preaching to the choir.
It had a strategy. It was called "pretend to be teocon to get the teocon vote." Rand tried it with moderate success. Then Trump out teoconned the teocons. People have genuine "So where do we draw the line" concerns. I did hear on Fox the other time commentators suggesting that Trump is less willing to go to war with Iran than the people underneath him. I guess that counts for something. But everything I've seen suggests that Obama was less willing to go to war with Libya than was Hillary and that didn't carry nearly the risk an Iran war does.Does this movement even have a strategy? I'm loathe to even call it a "movement" anymore since it's been stagnant since 2012. (really I think it peaked in 2008). But we have a lot of people willing to provide each other with circular affirmation of their beliefs, and inexhaustible stockpiles of energy to chastise anyone who deviates to grab those fleeting chances to claim a victory once in a while.
Anyway, what's your strategy at this point?
Last edited by jmdrake; 06-18-2019 at 12:08 PM.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
That is an over-generalization. Let's say Ron is 99% pure. Rand isn't close to 99%. Many people who were wary of Rand nonetheless were willing to get behind him. Let's say Rand was 88%. Where is Trump? 75%? 70%? At some point the product has become so diluted that you are just down to "Well...this person is arguably better than Hillary Clinton." Okay. That was true for John McCain and Mitt Romney as well. And the "defending the impure politician" ultimately morphs into "defending the impurity itself." The mental gymnastics I have seen gone through to defend bumpfire stocks alone make my head spin. I get the "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" idea. I also get "Beware of wolves in sheep clothing." Both concerns are valid.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See... I am not SS. I am anti war but I too have skills and had to actually use these in a real life situations many times as both a civilian and as a stealth soldier. Reality is a bitch. It smells, Human carnage has it's own unique smell that you never forget, mass blood smells like metallic iron rust mixed with hominid $#@! and urine. It is a smell you wish to never smell again. There comes a point where you realize that you would rather have that smell somewhere other than on your own soil if you have a choice between there or here. If it is destined to happen and it cannot be stopped, I want it there rather than here amongst us and our own community. So there is your choice in reality... Here or there man because it will never stop.
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world it leaves to its children.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer
If Ron Paul stayed libertarian, he'd get nothing done. If we change the GOP it'd 2 birds with one stone. Let's be honest tho, there's no more Ron Paul movement. Participating in RPF here is like hanging out in a beetlejuice-esque purgatory.
A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police
We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
- Edward R. Murrow
...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.
How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."
The fact that so many here are willing to turn on Justin over this while constantly giving Trump a pass speaks volumes about where this forum is these days. People are talking about degrees, don't throw out the good because of a tolerable bad. And then turn on Justin, really?
If anyone thinks that on a ratings scale Trump is anywhere near Amash they're delusional.
"The Patriarch"
Justin is a delusional libertarian right winger. If you follow his rambling, we wouldn't achieve anything so called libertarians say they like. Trump is a pragmatic centrist, he fights for our rights while skillfully managing the establishment bureaucrats. This is why you tolerate Trump and reject Amash and pipe dream ideas.
See, that kind of talk is exactly what I'm talking about. Libertarians have been out-for-blood with the tea party because they only agree on just 80% of what the libertarian party was going for, but you know, I would say actually making it into office is much more than "moderate success." A Senate seat!, no less. Libertarians didn't put Rand in office, sorry to tell ya. They were too busy pouting in 2010 because the tea party took Ron's idea and ran with it (I will be honest, it's a damn shame that Ron Paul will never get credit for all the things he did), meanwhile Rand was using the wave to get into office. He had a strategy.
The libertarian party needs alphas. They need people who know how to harness energy and steer it. Granted, that's a problem because being a pack leader goes against the nature of libertarians, but if they want to win and actually be a player in politics, they're going to have to get over that. I don't see any other way.
Last edited by nobody's_hero; 06-18-2019 at 03:53 PM.
T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato
We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me
Originally Posted by Philhelm
Look up bill sponsored/co sponsored by Justin and then see how many of them passed. Meanwhile Trump has been able to implement huge tax cuts, reduced regulations, tried to cut immigration and appointed young conservative judges that would protect liberty for decades to comes. One definitely has a winning strategy and the other is trying to obstruct.
Hope that helps
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