Should Rand Challenge Trump For The 2020 GOP Nomination?

[Swordsmyth]

Add this to "BRING THEM HOME":
Afghanistan Wants Russia, Not US to Help Restore Peace in Country - Ambassador

Let Putin "fill the vacuum".

[AuH20]

Amash may be the best choice. He can articulate the libertarian position with an educational goal, and so much better if he has success. It would raise his visibility. Win-win.

Amash has become a caricature of a libertarian. He sucks. Massie is the gold standard and even he is wise enough to see the forest and not the trees.

[r3volution 3.0]

Amash has become a caricature of a libertarian. He sucks. Massie is the gold standard and even he is wise enough to see the forest and not the trees.

How much does TrumpPac pay?

[AuH20]

How much does TrumpPac pay?

I wouldn't know. I do know that Justin Amash has become a buffoon though and that's completely independent of Trump's flaws.

[r3volution 3.0]

I wouldn't know. I do know that Justin Amash has become a buffoon though and that's completely independent of Trump's flaws.

Ah..

Does a person who continues the 16 year old, obviously failed war in Afghanistan qualify as a baboon buffoon, in your opinion?

[AuH20]

Ah..

Does a person who continues the 16 year failed war in Afghanistan qualify as a baboon buffoon, in your opinion?

Yes, but so does an infantile congressman who's become an absolute contrarian on all things Trump. It's become petty and predictable.

[r3volution 3.0]

Yes, but so does an infantile congressman who's become an absolute contrarian on all things Trump.

Which pro-liberty initiatives of Trump...



Hold on, let me compose myself...

Right, so, tell me which pro-liberty actions of Trump (a) existed, and (b) were opposed bv Amash.

[AuH20]

Which pro-liberty initiatives of Trump...



Hold on, let me compose myself...

Right, so, tell me which pro-liberty actions of Trump (a) existed, and (b) were opposed bv Amash.

I cut loose of Amash when he started pushing an independent commission on the alleged Russian connection. He's so far gone. It's comical now. If he can't decipher Deep State voodoo and maintain a level head, then he's useless. Ron Paul called out the Russian frame job from the start.

[r3volution 3.0]

I cut loose of Amash when he started pushing an independent commission on the alleged Russian connection. He's so far gone. It's comical now. If he can't decipher Deep State voodoo and maintain a level head, then he's useless. Ron Paul called out the Russian frame job from the start.

So, as to anti-liberty actions, none then.

Right

[AuH20]

So, as to anti-liberty actions, none then.

Right

Don't have a problem with this statement if it's factual and not exaggerated.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/34...-establishment

[r3volution 3.0]

Don't have a problem with this statement if it's factual and not exaggerated.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/34...-establishment

You don't have a problem with someone pointing out that you're full of $#@! and are shilling for the President?

Good

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Only thing is, and I hate to say it, we have to be selective about who gets to do what when and where. Maybe a grassroots informational/ad based web site detached from this forum, perhaps. One with no platform for public commentary.

This can't be emphasized enough. You don't always have to open up your social media information to comments. There are times when it should be done, but also times when it should not be done. One of those times is when you simply want people to view your information and only your information. They should walk away from your site thinking about what you are promoting, not some dumb argument they had with an anonymous detractor.

[Swordsmyth]

If Rand does run again he should use this: Rand Paul 2020 A CLEAR VISION FOR AMERICA

[Schifference]

Rand just doesn't possess the personality to win that position.

It will take a person that never backs down and knows they are correct to win. If not Trey Gowdy somebody like him from a personality perspective.

[acptulsa]

Rand just doesn't possess the personality to win that position.

It will take a person that never backs down and knows they are correct to win. If not Trey Gowdy somebody like him from a personality perspective.

So only psychopaths can be elected?

And trustworthy, principled, libertarian psychopaths are readily available to us?

[Brian4Liberty]

So only psychopaths can be elected?

And trustworthy, principled, libertarian psychopaths are readily available to us?

Funny you should ask...

[Swordsmyth]

So only psychopaths can be elected?

And trustworthy, principled, libertarian psychopaths are readily available to us?

We do not want a psychopath, they can't be trusted, but we need someone with a confident inspiring "Leader" demeanor, the mass of the public is a herd, they don't respond to teachers, only to leaders.

[Schifference]

So only psychopaths can be elected?

And trustworthy, principled, libertarian psychopaths are readily available to us?

Are you saying Trey Gowdy is a psychopath?

[nikcers]

So only psychopaths can be elected?

And trustworthy, principled, libertarian psychopaths are readily available to us?

No essentially people who offer what people want, (easy answers for hard questions) you can't win. So basically only demagogues can win because people are too stupid. I think that this is what Ron Paul is talking about when he talks about ideas having power. He is talking about philosophical ideas that can't be unseen by the minds eye, or what I believe is the form of the good.

Humans are compelled to pursue the good, but no one can hope to do this successfully without philosophical reasoning


Imagine an election debate between two candidates, one who was like a doctor and the other who was like a sweet shop owner. (its like he watched the debates between Rand Paul and Trump)


We have given the vote to all without connecting it to that of wisdom. And Socrates knew exactly where that would lead: to a system the Greeks feared above all, demagoguery. We have forgotten all about Socrates’s salient warnings against democracy. We have preferred to think of democracy as an unambiguous good – rather than a process that is only ever as effective as the education system that surrounds it.

Crucially, Socrates was not elitist in the normal sense. He didn’t believe that a narrow few should only ever vote. He did, however, insist that only those who had thought about issues rationally and deeply should be let near a vote.

If you were heading out on a journey by sea, asks Socrates, who would you ideally want deciding who was in charge of the vessel? Just anyone or people educated in the rules and demands of seafaring? Socrates’s point is that voting in an election is a skill, not a random intuition. And like any skill, it needs to be taught systematically to people.

In 399 BC, the philosopher was put on trial on trumped up charges of corrupting the youth of Athens. A jury of 500 Athenians was invited to weigh up the case and decided by a narrow margin that the philosopher was guilty. He was put to death by hemlock in a process which is, for thinking people, every bit as tragic as Jesus’s condemnation has been for Christians.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Whether it's a proper strategic move remains to be seen, but Rand is totally incapable of winning the presidency and so is any prominent libertarian. The libertarian movement, and indeed, the entire right wing needs to be torn down and rebuilt, but only after the leaders and devotees study and understand power. No one seems to understand power less than libertarians, and until the root is torn out and replanted, the tree of liberty will always be diseased and malnourished.

[acptulsa]

No one seems to understand power less than libertarians, and until the root is torn out and replanted, the tree of liberty will always be diseased and malnourished.

Oh, joy. Now the stormfront brigade is telling us we don't understand power. We understand power just fine, thank you very much. That's why we want to take it out of the hands of the few and spread it as thin as possible. But of course the right racists have no more use for liberty than the left racists. The right racists are giddy because the left racists have succeeded in brainwashing college students of color into begging for the return of segregation. The neo-Nazis are delirious with joy because they finally have the communists on their side, for the first time since 1939. Universal segregation now! Of course, you won't get along any better now than Hitler and Stalin did then. But don't let me stop you from enjoying the moment. Not that I could anyway--getting along with people is hardly your ideal, is it?

Don't nurse the Tree of Liberty back to health while people still remember how sweet are its fruits. Oh, no! Tear it out by the roots ourselves and see if our new communist and fascist overlords suffer us to grow it from the seed. See, indeed, if they even allow us enough hours in the day off from our slave duties to tend that seedling. See if a whole new generation will come tend our pitiful little seedling when they have never tasted its sweet fruit at all. What sage advice!

Rand can't win the presidency because sanity is boring. No one pointed a camera at him during his campaign not because his message ran counter to the brainwashing designed to lead us all to slavery, but rather because insanity boosts ratings better. Yeah, we've heard it all, and have been hearing it ever since you turkeys invaded this site during the campaign and drove off our bipartisan coalition of sane people. Repetition does not change the fact that none of you give two $#@!s in a sack about liberty. Repetition does not change the fact that we're not stupid enough to willingly give up what liberties we have left on your empty promise that we might grow some more after five generations of slavery, if only we let you have your evil way now.

Where the $#@! am I? Tear out the Tree of Liberty. This place followed Alice through the Looking Glass. I look at the RPF banner and I see looking glass letters. What does FPR stand for? Fascist Public Radio? And what would Antifa's non-self-serving advice be? Tear the Tree of Liberty out by the roots. And what would George Soros' non-self-serving advice be? Tear the Tree of Liberty out by the roots. And what would Stalin's non-self-serving advice have been? Tear the Tree of Liberty out by the roots.

Stop trying to redefine our movement. You are ThePaleoTotalitarian and it's about time you admitted it.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

We understand power just fine, thank you very much. That's why we want to take it out of the hands of the few and spread it as thin as possible.

Ye Gods, your lack of self-awareness is astounding. This statement demonstrates that you have no understanding of power. What you just said is the most jejune kind of pro-democracy talking point. It would be totally at home at a Bernie Sanders rally.

Power always concentrates into few hands. Man is a hierarchical animal. The liberty of the populace needs to benefit the aristocratic class, otherwise, liberty doesn't exist. This is why democracy (and yes, republicanism) always erodes liberty and why monarchy (or other forms of private governance) is the only way to create and maintain it. The incentive structure must be aligned properly.

But of course the right racists have no more use for liberty than the left racists. The right racists are giddy because the left racists have succeeded in brainwashing college students of color into begging for the return of segregation. The neo-Nazis are delirious with joy because they finally have the communists on their side, for the first time since 1939. Universal segregation now! Of course, you won't get along any better now than Hitler and Stalin did then. But don't let me stop you from enjoying the moment. Not that I could anyway--getting along with people is hardly your ideal, is it?

Dementia has taken what little was left of your mind, I see. That's the only explanation as to why you'd be bringing any of this up in this discussion, which has nothing to do with neo-nazis or communists.

Don't nurse the Tree of Liberty back to health while people still remember how sweet are its fruits. Oh, no!

Yes, let's hear your brilliant strategy on how to get a populace who despises the very concept of liberty to "nurse the tree". You are incapable of a cold, rational power analysis, all you can do is spew platitudes and insult your betters.

Tear it out by the roots ourselves and see if our new communist and fascist overlords suffer us to grow it from the seed. See, indeed, if they even allow us enough hours in the day off from our slave duties to tend that seedling. See if a whole new generation will come tend our pitiful little seedling when they have never tasted its sweet fruit at all. What sage advice!

When I say "tear it out", I'm talking about starting from scratch when it comes to political strategy. If you think I'm advocating handing over power to "fascist and communist overlords", you're even dumber than I thought, which is truly an achievement.

Rand can't win the presidency because sanity is boring. No one pointed a camera at him during his campaign not because his message ran counter to the brainwashing designed to lead us all to slavery, but rather because insanity boosts ratings better. Yeah, we've heard it all, and have been hearing it ever since you turkeys invaded this site during the campaign and drove off our bipartisan coalition of sane people. Repetition does not change the fact that none of you give two $#@!s in a sack about liberty. Repetition does not change the fact that we're not stupid enough to willingly give up what liberties we have left on your empty promise that we might grow some more after five generations of slavery, if only we let you have your evil way now.

"Yeah, I know libertarians have been completely ineffectual on a political level since at least World War II, but hey, it's everyone else's fault! We don't have to change. We don't have to reevaluate our strategy, even if it does consistently fail. Let's talk about how the media is against us and weren't fair to Ron or Rand! So what if it's never worked before? I'm old and change is hard. I need a nap. Where's my glasses? Nazis! Nazis and communists everywhere!"

Where the $#@! am I? Tear out the Tree of Liberty. This place followed Alice through the Looking Glass. I look at the RPF banner and I see looking glass letters. What does FPR stand for? Fascist Public Radio? And what would Antifa's non-self-serving advice be? Tear the Tree of Liberty out by the roots. And what would George Soros' non-self-serving advice be? Tear the Tree of Liberty out by the roots. And what would Stalin's non-self-serving advice have been? Tear the Tree of Liberty out by the roots.

Again, political strategy.

Stop trying to redefine our movement. You are ThePaleoTotalitarian and it's about time you admitted it.

I want liberty and civilizational renewal far more than you do. I'm young. I have to live in this society for several more decades. I don't want to live in this rotting husk of a once great civilization, but I'm smart enough to know that what's been tried doesn't $#@!ing work. You, on the other hand, are perfectly content taking potshots at the establishment while being part of an ineffectual movement that sees absolutely no substantial political victories. Do you ever get tired of failure?

[The Rebel Poet]

Ye Gods, your lack of self-awareness is astounding. This statement demonstrates that you have no understanding of power. What you just said is the most jejune kind of pro-democracy talking point. It would be totally at home at a Bernie Sanders rally.

So would end the fed, end the wars etc., but unlike Sanders, acptulsa actually wants to prevent power from being concentrated, in that, you are more like Sanders and other leftists than acptulsa could ever be.

Power always concentrates into few hands.

That doesn't make it right.

Man is a hierarchical animal. The liberty of the populace needs to benefit the aristocratic class, otherwise, liberty doesn't exist.

This is necessarily true, except that it assumes there must be a ruling class. Many of us here believe that all men are created equal.

This is why democracy (and yes, republicanism) always erodes liberty and why monarchy (or other forms of private governance) is the only way to create and maintain it. The incentive structure must be aligned properly.

I'm pretty sure I agree with this.

Dementia has taken what little was left of your mind, I see. That's the only explanation as to why you'd be bringing any of this up in this discussion, which has nothing to do with neo-nazis or communists.

Then why did you bring up a Bernie Sanders rally?

Yes, let's hear your brilliant strategy on how to get a populace who despises the very concept of liberty to "nurse the tree". You are incapable of a cold, rational power analysis, all you can do is spew platitudes and insult your betters.

So much irony in this.

When I say "tear it out", I'm talking about starting from scratch when it comes to political strategy. If you think I'm advocating handing over power to "fascist and communist overlords", you're even dumber than I thought, which is truly an achievement.

That was not at all clear from your sentence. How did you think we would interpret the phrases "tear out the root" and "tree of liberty" used in the same sentence?

"Yeah, I know libertarians have been completely ineffectual on a political level since at least World War II, but hey, it's everyone else's fault! We don't have to change. We don't have to reevaluate our strategy, even if it does consistently fail. Let's talk about how the media is against us and weren't fair to Ron or Rand! So what if it's never worked before? I'm old and change is hard. I need a nap. Where's my glasses? Nazis! Nazis and communists everywhere!"

What makes you think he wants no change in strategy at all, merely because he doesn't support your changes? You are making the same logical fallacy that the socialists make regarding charity.

Again, political strategy.

Again, not at all clear.

I want liberty and civilizational renewal far more than you do.

How did you measure that?

I'm young. I have to live in this society for several more decades. I don't want to live in this rotting husk of a once great civilization, but I'm smart enough to know that what's been tried doesn't $#@!ing work. You, on the other hand, are perfectly content taking potshots at the establishment while being part of an ineffectual movement that sees absolutely no substantial political victories. Do you ever get tired of failure?

Winning for the sake of winning is meaningless. That is what the Trumpists on this site (any who are philosophically libertarian) failed to realize. Victory must achieve something you actually want to achieve. We don't want to achieve racially motivated state power (or almost any state power).

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

So would end the fed, end the wars etc., but unlike Sanders, acptulsa actually wants to prevent power from being concentrated, in that, you are more like Sanders and other leftists than acptulsa could ever be.

Power is fundamentally always concentrated. Constitutions and voting don't limit state power in any discernable way. Good, efficient, limited government is achieved by having the correct incentives in place and the correct dogmas believed.

That doesn't make it right.

If it's an inevitable feature of civilization, then it doesn't matter if it's right or not, it needs to be dealt with. It is all of the worst political philosophies that choose their theory when said theory is tested against reality.

This is necessarily true, except that it assumes there must be a ruling class.

There must be. Leadership (good or bad) takes certain qualities, that not everyone has. Human hierarchies will always reflect this. The issue at hand is to engineer a system where the rulers err on the side of more liberty, not less like in today's world.

Many of us here believe that all men are created equal.

That is simply a falsehood.

I'm pretty sure I agree with this.

Okay.

Then why did you bring up a Bernie Sanders rally?

Because he was spewing platitudinous pablum that would be at home there or at pretty much any demotic cluster$#@!.

So much irony in this.

Is there? Whether you agree with my analysis or not, it is at least analysis. acptulsa is just raving about phantom neo-Nazis and communists, as though that has anything at all to do with the discussion at hand.

That was not at all clear from your sentence. How did you think we would interpret the phrases "tear out the root" and "tree of liberty" used in the same sentence?

How is it unclear when I'm specifically talking about Rand and his inability to win the Presidency? This whole thread is about political strategy FFS.

What makes you think he wants no change in strategy at all, merely because he doesn't support your changes? You are making the same logical fallacy that the socialists make regarding charity.

Because he talks about how Rand's failures weren't his fault when in large part they absolutely were. Did the media give him a raw deal? Of course they did, but a truly savvy operator would have had some $#@!ing plan in place. Rand failing to produce his father's numbers and indeed, failing to get into $#@!ing double digits are his $#@!ing fault. You can't fix a problem until you accept that there is one.

If little tulsa has strategic theories, I'd love to hear them. I couls use a good laugh.

Again, not at all clear.

See above.

How did you measure that?

I'm young, I'm a gun owner, I'm self-employed and I live in the most leftist state in the country. No one wants liberty more than someone in my shoes. I'm going to be living in this country a lot longer than he is.

Winning for the sake of winning is meaningless. That is what the Trumpists on this site (any who are philosophically libertarian) failed to realize. Victory must achieve something you actually want to achieve. We don't want to achieve racially motivated state power (or almost any state power).

It's not about winning for its own sake, it's about understanding power so libertarians can actually make intelligent strategic choices and get things to improve, even a little. I'm trying to play chess, while tulsa just wants to flip the board and yell about how the opposing player is a bad man and how he's surrounded by Nazis. Listening to rubes like him os what got the movement in such a sorry state.

[acptulsa]

Ye Gods, your lack of self-awareness is astounding. This statement demonstrates that you have no understanding of power. What you just said is the most jejune kind of pro-democracy talking point. It would be totally at home at a Bernie Sanders rally.

I have a lack of self awareness, yet you are on a libertarian website screaming that we should let you and your ilk set up some sort of collectivist kaiser because the concept of spreading power out among the many is Bernie Sanders socialism. Buddy, Bernie Sanders is The Man Who Would Be King. In that respect, you are Bernie Sanders.

"Yeah, I know libertarians have been completely ineffectual on a political level since at least World War II, but hey, it's everyone else's fault! We don't have to change. We don't have to reevaluate our strategy, even if it does consistently fail.

Failure is a relative term. Our band has slowed the march of tyranny from time to time. And your grumpy band of segregationists? The second half of the Twentieth Century was a string of unmitigated failures for the lot of you. Never in history has your brand of collectivism suffered more spectacular setbacks in terms of policy. In fact, the greatest gains your brand of feudalism have seen since Reconstruction have come at the hands of your mortal enemies, who have of late been convincing minorities they don't want to hang with you, and accomplishing the segregation you drooled over for a century by relegating white college students to the ghetto dorms.

And you sit here screaming like a bad characture of a fascist pedagogue about how we're ineffective? Got news, bub. You're not only totally ineffective, but we're among the overwhelming majority of the people of the world who are damned glad you're totally ineffective.

Now. What the $#@! makes you think your totalitarian would-be kingmaking ass has anything in common with us; have any strategies we would care use, thus setting aside all our principles so we can go down in flames as your ilk always, always does; have anything in common with us at all? So why are you here again? If you're getting paid for plaguing us, that's one thing. But if you're just trolling us to make it easy for the mainstream media to slander us by accusing us of being you, then I guess your political ineffectiveness isn't just the inherent ugliness of the way you'd sacrifice all peace, prosperity, beauty, reason and everything else on the altar of racism. I guess part of it is the lot of you are too stupid to realize when you are trolling in a place where you'll never make friends, and too stupid to avoid aiding your strongest enemies by feeding them the enemies who are doing you far, far less harm.

Because for all you lecture us about how stupid and ineffective we are, you people have exactly one power. One and only one. Like a person with bad body funk, you can completely isolate anyone--just by hanging out with them. At least we aren't you people.

[enhanced_deficit]

Heaven forbid if this went further, does GOP have contingency option candidates to field in 2020?




CBS News poll: Majority of Americans approve of Trump impeachment inquiry







Potentially Related

[oyarde]

Heaven forbid if this went further, does GOP have contingency option candidates to field in 2020?




CBS News poll: Majority of Americans approve of Trump impeachment inquiry







Potentially Related

So Pence is polling at 55 percent , I figured just 50 1/2 .

[UWDude]

What a grotesque embarrassment Rand has become

...

[enhanced_deficit]

This question could become more relevant again in few months potentially... without need for any challenges:

https://video.foxnews.com/v/61133541...#sp=show-clips



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